🚀 go-pugleaf

in article 39711d55_2@news.oanet.com, King & Associates Int'l at
kai@5pillars.com  whispered on  7/15/00 8:26 PM:

> Deacon:
> 
>>> You are the one making the claim for the efficacy of magnetic therapies.
> 
> Firstly, let me once again reassure you I do not make any claim that this is
> a "theraputic" method.
>

So it has no medical value. Who do you want to buy it then, and for what
possible reason?

> The word "therapy" would be ascribed only to a method of any kind used for
> medical purposes, these products ARE NOT medical devices, hope I have made
> that point very clear.

You have. We move forward with the understanding that your products have no
medical value. Got it.

> 
>> Magnetic fields strong enough to be of use in therapies
>> are hundreds of times more powerful than the fridge magnets in common use
>> with quack treatments. This is well established.
> 
> If you are assuming I am refering to "fridge" type magnets, you do me a
> grave injustice.  I am not so feeble in the head as to believe I could get
> any results from taking such items from my fridge door and placing it on my
> forehead etc.  On this point we agree.  By the by, "treatment" is a medical
> term, you will notice I have not used that term either.


That's right, cuz legally you can't. You know enough about the law to sell
useless products to the marks for purposes you know they believe to be true,
but you are careful to not to actually state. Got it.

> 
>> You are obviously unaquainted with the scientific process, or care not for
>> reading or research.
> 
> In fact, I was very skeptical at first until I had my own "experience".  So
> just what is research?  Scientific study is a documented process from which
> we draw conclusions based on the experience of the people doing the study
> under controlled conditions.  Depending upon the "controlled conditions", we
> can prove just about anything we wish as long as we get to set the
> conditions!!

It's called peer review. Look it up. Others have to repeat the experiments
and get the same results. If you blow a protocol or fail to account for a
variable, some one else will find it and correct it, and then maybe the
positive results disappear. This is almost always the case with alternative
treatments.

>  If we set out with the attitude that we are going to disprove
> a theory once and for all no matter how scientifically right or wrong we may
> be, 9 times out of 10 we will find proof to support our point of view and
> visa versa.

Read the reply above. That may be how you conduct yourself, but we didn't
come this far by playing the types of games you describe. You use
technologies every single day that bear out the validity of the scientific
method, but when it comes to your own personal experiences, you suddenly
know better and everyone else is wrong. Why is that?

> 
> I am not nor have I ever claimed to be a scientist with hordes of scientific
> evidence to prove or disprove magnets and their properties or effectiveness.
> Since I am not about to get into a discussion based on limited knowledge on
> my part I would refer you to a book available at your nearest Chapters book
> store entitled "Healing with Magnets", the author is Dr. Gary Null (Ph. D.)

http://www.quackwatch.com/04ConsumerEducation/null.html

Dubious Credentials

Null says he holds an associate degree in business administration from
Mountain State College in West Virginia, a bachelor's degree from Thomas A.
Edison State College in New Jersey, and a PhD in human nutrition and public
health sciences from The Union Institute in Cincinnati, Ohio. Edison State,
a "nontraditional" school with neither campus nor courses, awards accredited
bachelor's degrees based on career experience, equivalency exams, and
courses taken at other schools.

> published by Carroll & Graf and specifically pages 46 and the first three
> paragraphs of page 47.  This is an in depth scientific, physiological
> explanation by an expert (Jim Joseph) as to exactly what effect the magnetic
> field has on the human body and why.

That should be interesting, Might take me a while to read, as I sure as heck
am not going to pay money for it....
> 
>> 
>> Testimonials are not evidence.
> 
> Hmmmmmm, I agree so, what is your point?  Testimonials are only people
> sharing the experiences they have had.  Do you now say to these people they
> are nuts??  Do you think for one minute I accept that these "magnets" work
> because of what these people say??!!

No, you accept it because of you personal experience, which is exactly the
same as accepting it because all these other people say so.

Agian, where are the properly conducted studies? Where are the explanations
that can withstand scrutiny?

> 
> Testimonials are not given as scientific evidence, that would be ludicrous!
> However, peoples experiences cannot be judged right or wrong and you cannot
> judge an items effectiveness based on heresay.


... but you want people to buy these products based on YOUR hearsay, because
it 'works' for you?

>  I suffer from allergies and
> have tried "Claritin" which according to scientific studies SHOULD give me
> relief, well it DOES NOT!!  G.I. Joe down the street is also an allergy
> sufferer BUT "Claritin" works wonders for him and he swears by it.
> According to our testimonies who's right??  Obviously according to my
> testimonial, this product should be removed from every shelf across Canada
> as it clearly does not work!   That would be shear stupidity.  My point is,
> scientific studies or not, people experience what they experience and you
> cannot say to someone who tells you what they experienced - "you did not!!"
> To assume you can is just as ludicrous.

Experience is not the point. There is still no evidence of cause and effect,
and the last thing that matters are people's impressions or beliefs
concerning what occurred. If the supposed treatment cannot have caused the
supposed effects, it does not matter what a person thinks. Ailments come and
go, people rarely documents any useful details, and ad hoc and post hoc
explainations abound.


> John Fleming wrote...
>> In fact, I believe the correct procedure with people to compensate for
>> the placebo effect is to test the treatment with two groups--one given
>> the actual treatment, and the other given a placebo.  A double blind
>> adds to the effectiveness because the person dealing directly with the
>> test subjects isn't aware of who's getting the placebo and who isn't.
> 
> I agree John, but try finding double blind studies done on many of our drugs
> available only by prescription and you will find most prior to the 80's were
> never tested by such a method and yet they are still prescribed even though
> our physicains cannot tell us how they work.

Please name one. Heck, name two.

>  According to those who base
> their faith in double-blind studies many of our "acceptable" drugs had
> better be removed from shelves and pharmacies across this country
> immediately.

Faith does not enter into it for reasons stated above. The process is
self-correcting, unlike the gullibility practiced and expected by too many
'alternative' product peddlers.
> 
> I also agree that what may work on an animal may or may not work on the
> human physiology but the point in question was - do they work or is it
> simply suggestion or hope?  My response was to point out that with animals
> the placebo effect is eliminated and these products do work on animals.

If people have to interpret the health of the animal, the bias is not
eliminated. It may in fact be compounded, as the interpretation rests soley
with the person interpreting the results. The horses are not going to talk
anytime soon.

> 
> Deacon...according to the saying you have listed at the end of your emails
> you need evidence before you will believe in anything (Bertrand Russell).
> If this truly reflects your thinking and faith is not part of you then I
> pity the fact you have one less dimension in your life to enjoy and cherish.

Spare me the sanctimonious piffle. I have no need for your imaginary
dimensions, as they distract from what is useful valid and valuable. I won't
waste my time with fairy tales and wishful thinking when real work needs to
be done.


-- 

VVV

Deacon

The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth that there is
no reason to decieve ourselves with petty stories for which there's little
evidence.

Carl Sagan