🚀 go-pugleaf

John,

I have a vague recollection of this issue being discussed relative recently in the Adobe Typography forum. The end result was, I believe, that Adobe no longer supplies that information because in the electronic age it's not very necessary. Try a search of that forum.

I found these existing threads:

Thomas Phinney, "Looking for a condensed serif face" #4, 11 Dec 2006 8:46 pm </cgi-bin/webx?14@@.3bc2826d/3>

Dominic Hurley, "Typographical math" #1, 1 Mar 2007 2:16 pm </cgi-bin/webx?14@@.3bc349ab/0>



From the first link:

      Thomas Phinney - 8:46pm Dec 11, 06 PST (#4 of 7) 	 	 Edited: 11-Dec-2006
      at 07:47pm

      No, Adobe no longer maintains the old CPP (characters per pica) listings.
      That method of checking line lengths seems to have phased out gradually
      over the digital type era, because it's so easy to just "try it and see"
      in digital type.

      In any case, I think you'll have problems finding any condensed serif
      typeface that is as condensed as Myriad Condensed at the same point size.
      If you do find it, it probably won't be very legible.

      I strongly suspect you'd be better off taking something like Minion Pro
      Condensed Caption at a smaller point size. Just keep on adjusting it until
      you find the maximum size that fits.

      Regards,

      T

      Thomas Phinney
      Product Manager (Adobe)
      Fonts & Global Typography

My recall is similar to Ram�n's on this point. Whereas in the days of hot metal and foundry you could blow your entire creative budget on a reset if you got the font size or leading wrong, today, trial and error takes just a few seconds or so for the average job. You're over by 3 pages? Cut the leading .5 pt. Or cut the point size .25 pt. A lot more freedom here at a minimum cost of time or money.

I used to spend hours doing copy casting from client manuscripts, and hoped that I got it right. I haven't used character counts or a Haberule since about 1990 or so.

Neil

Thanks everyone. I agree with most of the comments, but for book design knowing the cpp counts can be very useful in making the right choices for text fonts, even in this digital age. I do quite a bit of college textbook design, and sometimes book length can be a problem for the publisher. Resetting the type for already completed chapters is not really an option. ($$$ and time will not permit it). And I did find an old PDF from Adobe with cpp counts.

John, 

      Resetting the type for already completed chapters is not really an option.




But why not? 25 years ago I'd agree with you. But, with all due respect, unless I'm completely misunderstanding your work process, to me it seems that adjusting what is already set to compensate for overset or short copy or for widows and orphans -- by modifying my style configurations -- is faster and more accurate than old-style copy casting. By doing this on the fly, you know almost instantly how the copy is going to look, instead of guessing and copy counting copy blocks. Of course, for both the old way and the new way, you still have to go through the book and fix locally bad breaks, or tweak the location of photos and charts.

There is simply no way to do a copy count and know for sure sure how long a book is going to be or where all the breaks are going to be. I start with a basic spec, based upon experience and common sense or publisher's standard: font, size, leading, column width for each style, tracking, etc. I set it. I review what I've set. I either adjust the basic spec or make local adjustments depending upon on the extent of what has to be done. How is this less efficient than manually copy casting the entire book?

Neil

Hi Neil.

To clarify -- I'm not trying to copy cast the book. I'm not even the compositor for the books I design. I just set up the design style and graphics for all the elements in the book. Once the manuscript has been copyedited and finalized, it goes into production on a strict schedule. Chapters are sent to the publisher and author for review. As a freelancer, I never see the typeset pages. I'm out of the loop by then. I never even see the final book. Every step in the production process has been plotted on a calendar leading up to the bound book date. If chapters are reset, they have to be reviewed again, and the schedule is shot, and the books are not ready for the market (fall semester, for example), and if they miss that small window, they are potentially worthless. And a book that is too long costs more money and is not as marketable to the students. By knowing the ccp, I can make better decisions on choosing type fonts that will help control book length. For example, the cpp for 10 point Adobe Garamond is 3.01. The cpp for Galliard Roman ITC is 2.74 -- so I can expect Galliard Roman to cut the book length by 8 or 9 percent. (The effect would be less if the book is heavy in photos, art, boxes, etc.)

Woops - in my example - I meant to say Galliard Roman would ADD to the book length compared to Adobe Garamond.

John, 

      I'm not trying to copy cast the book.




But, in essence, you are. And you're working in the dark. Your client's work process might work for him, but it doesn't work well for you. Not today. Not with the advantages of today's electronic typesetting.

To improve the workflow and save time and energy, what I would do is follow a best-guess spec based upon my experience, using set-up styles, and seeing how the book falls -- instead of a full-blown, detailed spec. And then -- ask that the initial galleys be delivered to you first for overnight review and spec revision. Then corrections are run out and sent to the publisher and author for review. At least then you are working from practical knowledge and a good visualization of what the book looks like. To my way of seeing, it saves time and a lot of acid indigestion.

I'm sure you already know the relative specs of commonly requested fonts. You could do sample settings on your own for a quick reference as a cheat sheet for both copy length and readability at specific sizes and leadings.

One more point: your spec can't be perfect or anticipate all contingencies from cover to cover. Who does the resets or corrections at that time? Who fixes widows and orphans?

I've paid my dues -- I've spec'd annual reports for Linotype, Monotype, Intertype, Ludlow, wood and foundry composition and had to be on the money or slightly under (under could always be leaded out). Nothing like finding a complex multi-column 42 pica-wide financial statement is running four lines deeper than the page it's supposed to be fit -- after it's been set. Or that the anticipated 16 pages of notes with embedded charts turns out to be 16-1/2.

I didn't have the luxury of playing with the fonts, font sizes, or leading. Tracking and leading could only be used to open up a line. And if I drew the short straw and wound up with a bunch of widows, my total line count was off. You can't know for sure. If I were lucky, the author or client would do a quick edit to fit. Otherwise, the penalty for mistakes was lost time -- and perhaps a costly reset by the type shop.

Those are my thoughts on how I'd want to handle this if it were my responsibility.

Neil

Hi Neil --

I'll do a sample chapter for my design -- showing all the elements that have been identified by the editors -- text, heads, boxes, captions, lists, extracts -- there can be dozens of elements. From this sample chapter everyone has a good visualization of what the book will look like. After the design is approved, I'll write detailed type specs if requested, or they can work from my Quark style sheets. You're right -- the specs can never cover everything, but they should give instructions for contingencies. The next step in the standard textbook production flow is for the production mgr to request from the compositor a cast-off -- or firm estimate of book length -- chapter-by-chapter. (Exact count? No -- but close) If adjustments to the design are necessary, they are made at that time. The compositor has instructions up front on how to handle widows and orphans. Project editors and in-house design staff review the pages for any remaining issues, art placement, etc. There may be more efficient ways to do all of this, but the textbook industry is slow to change. I still have client (a major typesetter for college books) that is still at Quark 4.

John

John,

That's not so bad. I've got a client with a printer in the Orient who insists on files in Illustrator 7!

Wish I had a better answer for you other than creating your own tables.

Neil