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A modern printer wouldn't need crop marks. The exported PDF has the trim 
and bleed information contained within the file.

Bob

Hit send too soon...

The printer could open the PDF and add the crop marks any way they see fit.

Bob

Ah, good point. However, do digital presses usually do the physical cutting 
of the page themselves?

Again, aren't we talking about the page being printed with crop marks, and 
then cut down to size? 

How do you expect to do it otherwise? If there's bleed it has to be done 
that way. Only alternative is design to the paper size with no bleed.

Bob

"How do you expect to do it otherwise?"

You mean otherwise than the way I write in the first post?

"Only alternative is design to the paper size with no bleed."

Wasn't an option.

Incidentally, what margin of error would a decent (not specialist) printer 
be expected to provide when it comes to trimming the page? Is 5mm average? 
Seems like a lot to me. 

Ariel,

To add to Bob's comments...

Standard bleed is 1/8" or 3 mm for this type of printing. Any printer worth dealing with can trim accurately to that fairly generous dimension. If he can't, he's a slob -- look elsewhere as he is likely to be sloppy in the rest of the job.

For this job, if your page is 29.7 x 21 cm, that is exactly the size you set up in your page layout app. The bleed portion of your art is extended 3 mm beyond that trim size.

But, the trim (crop) marks and registration marks, color bars and other marginalia are generated automatically by your printer when he outputs the job. There are few times I manually add cropmarks, the most frequent being for ganged-up business cards, note pads, and mailing labels.

Offhand, I'd say that the only time a printer will print onto exact-size sheets is when there is no bleed or multicolor registration issue, the volume is low (as can be with digital printing), and he is printing one-up. Other work will typically be on oversize sheets for the reasons cited in the paragraph above, and trimmed down. The trimmed-off scrap can be recycled.

Also, prepare your journal pages in InDesign or QuarkXPress in reading spreads. Let your printer do any page imposition.

Neil

Thanks Neil. Let me go through you comments;

> Standard bleed is 1/8" or 3 mm for this type of printing. Any printer 
> worth dealing with can trim accurately to that fairly generous dimension. 
> If he can't, he's a slob -- look elsewhere as he is likely to be sloppy in 
> the rest of the job.

Okay, 3mm.

> For this job, if your page is 29.7 x 21 cm, that is exactly the size you 
> set up in your page layout app. The bleed portion of your art is extended 
> 3 mm beyond that trim size.

Well, for this job the size is 28 x 20 cm. In InDesign, I set up a page that 
size, then set doc prefs with 5mm bleed.

> But, the trim (crop) marks and registration marks, color bars and other 
> marginalia are generated automatically by your printer when he outputs the 
> job. There are few times I manually add cropmarks, the most frequent being 
> for ganged-up business cards, note pads, and mailing labels.

So you're saying I shouldn't add crop marks? I should just tell that printer 
that I've added 3mm bleed?

> Also, prepare your journal pages in InDesign or QuarkXPress in reading 
> spreads. Let your printer do any page imposition.

That's one mistake I haven't yet made!

> Neil
Thanks,
Ariel

Ariel,

Unless there are extenuating circumstances, 3 mm bleed should be all that's needed. We use 1/8" in the States, and all jobs I've done for printing overseas have had either 1/8" or 3 mm allowed for bleeds. Just extend the background, photos, rules, or whatever is to bleed, 3 mm beyond the trim edges of the pages. For example, if the trim size is 28 x 20 cm (I assume this is 28 cm wide), and I want an overall color background, I'd create a box 283 x 206 mm, place it on the page. It would align on the center fold, and extend 3 mm off the page on the opposite side, top and bottom.

When you speak to your printer, you have to tell him the specs anyway. He'll want to know the size, color, stock, and whether or not you have bleeds so he knows how to lay out the job for printing -- such as whether he can butt pages together, or whether he has to provide a gutter between for the bleeds.

No need to manually add crop marks -- they are automatically generated. You can even see this for yourself if you check "add crop marks" (or similar, in the print setup dialog boxes) which should add crop marks, register marks, file name, date and time in the margins to a proof off your laser printer or inkjet and print to an oversize sheet of paper. This is essentially what your printer will do.

Neil

Hi Neil,

Thanks for taking the time to respond, although the 101 on how to prepare 
bleeds wasn't necessary.

My question is more How to communicate your "trim" intentions with the 
printer? Or even: Let's compare how I communicate to my printer with how you 
communicate with yours.

Over the course of the last few years, and the couple of dozen books I've 
prepared, I've usually had to prepare a special diagram showing the distance 
from the end of the text line to the edge of the page, plus the distance to 
the top edge, etc., which I send to the printer, or plate-maker.

I have occassionally tried simply to enable the option in InDesign to add 
crop marks when creating the PDF. However, the printers tend to tell me that 
this isn't helpful. Not sure why not? I don't have any experience with 
imposition software, but I would have thought that adding crop marks to my 
page would be the simplest way for them to know how to place the page.

I've had some experiences where I took care to design the book with 
non-symmetrical margins. I added crop marks, sent the file off, and got a 
proof back with symmetrical margins. Printers seem to assume that margins 
are always symmetrical. How do I, or you, convey most simply to the printer 
what the margins should be? (I'm thinking here of a regular book with just 
text.) I don't know if you do much by way of 200+ pp books, but presumably 
the principles are the same whatever the content or length.

Thanks,
Ariel

Ariel, 

      although the 101 on how to prepare bleeds wasn't necessary




Good. <g> 

      How to communicate your "trim" intentions with the printer?




Give him the specs for the journal: "28 x 20 cm trim size, horizontal, plus bleed." Although, at least in the States, the horizontal dimension is typically provided first. 

      the couple of dozen books I've prepared, I've usually had to prepare a
      special diagram showing the distance from the end of the text line to
      the edge of the page, plus the distance to the top edge, etc., which I
      send to the printer, or plate-maker.




While it certainly can't hurt, with any decent printer, this would be a totally needless exercise. Your InDesign or QuarkXPress layout pages as you've defined them, or press-quality PDF or PDF/X1a files made from them, would clearly show him exactly where the crop/trim is in relationship to the text or any other graphic elements on the page. 

      I have occassionally tried simply to enable the option in InDesign to
      add crop marks when creating the PDF. However, the printers tend to tell
      me that this isn't helpful. Not sure why not?




Ask the printer. The only reason that comes to mind is that when they do page imposition, they have to recreate crop marks to reflect the layout of the entire signature. But I see no harm in doing so, as there then won't be any confusion if any of the pages includes bleeds. 

      I've had some experiences where I took care to design the book with non-symmetrical
      margins. I added crop marks, sent the file off, and got a proof back with
      symmetrical margins. Printers seem to assume that margins are always symmetrical.




Sounds like you're dealing with some seriously challenged printers who don't bother to check your files and your supplied printouts against their proofs. How do you say, "Idiot!" in Hebrew? <g> I've never had to tell a printer what the margins are. He follows the layout in the file, or full-size printout I send along with the files. 

      I don't know if you do much by way of 200+ pp books, but presumably the
      principles are the same whatever the content or length.




None. But, yes, the principle is the same, whether doing a simple flyer, an advertisement, stationery, or package design.

I hope this helps.

Neil

Ariel, 

      although the 101 on how to prepare bleeds wasn't necessary




Good. <g> 

      How to communicate your "trim" intentions with the printer?




Give him the specs for the journal: "28 x 20 cm trim size, horizontal, plus bleed." Note that at least in the States, the horizontal dimension is typically provided first. 

      the couple of dozen books I've prepared, I've usually had to prepare a
      special diagram showing the distance from the end of the text line to
      the edge of the page, plus the distance to the top edge, etc., which I
      send to the printer, or plate-maker.




While it certainly can't hurt, with any decent printer, this would be a totally needless exercise. Your InDesign or QuarkXPress layout pages as you've defined them, or press-quality PDF or PDF/X1a files made from them, would clearly show him exactly where the crop/trim is in relationship to the text or any other graphic elements on the page. 

      I have occassionally tried simply to enable the option in InDesign to
      add crop marks when creating the PDF. However, the printers tend to tell
      me that this isn't helpful. Not sure why not?




Ask the printer. The only reason that comes to mind is that when they do page imposition, they have to recreate crop marks to reflect the layout of the entire signature. But I see no harm in doing so, as there then won't be any confusion if any of the pages includes bleeds. 

      I've had some experiences where I took care to design the book with non-symmetrical
      margins. I added crop marks, sent the file off, and got a proof back with
      symmetrical margins. Printers seem to assume that margins are always symmetrical.




Sounds like you're dealing with some seriously challenged printers who don't bother to check your files and your supplied printouts against their proofs. How do you say, "Idiot!" in Hebrew? <g> I've never had to tell a printer what the margins are. He follows the layout in the file, or full-size printout I send along with the files. 

      I don't know if you do much by way of 200+ pp books, but presumably the
      principles are the same whatever the content or length.




None. But, yes, the principle is the same, whether doing a simple flyer, an advertisement, stationery, or package design.

I hope this helps.

Neil

Always ask the printer what they want if you don't know - I have had specs anywhere from .0625" bleed to .5" on larger pieces. Good communication with the printer is key - Neil is right on.

Best of luck!

pbc

Paul, 

      I have had specs anywhere from .0625" bleed to .5" on larger pieces.




Yes, of course. But even for fair-sized packaging on coated corrugated, 1/8" has been sufficient for the printers I've worked with. And Ariel is talking about a journal pretty much letter-sized.

Neil

> While it certainly can't hurt, with any decent printer, this would be a 
> totally needless exercise. Your InDesign or QuarkXPress layout pages as 
> you've defined them, or press-quality PDF or PDF/X1a files made from them, 
> would clearly show him exactly where the crop/trim is in relationship to 
> the text or any other graphic elements on the page.

I have a feeling they haven't a clue in many cases.

> Ask the printer. The only reason that comes to mind is that when they do 
> page imposition, they have to recreate crop marks to reflect the layout of 
> the entire signature. But I see no harm in doing so, as there then won't 
> be any confusion if any of the pages includes bleeds.

You're spot on here, actually. A few months ago I wangled my way into the 
upstairs work area where the plate-maker was working at his computer doing 
the imposition. He explained that my crops marks are not useful for exactly 
the reason you say. So that's something confirmed. But he still requested a 
schematic diagram with measurements for the margins.

I also cross-examined him regarding creep. He said he has heard of it 
(great), but never uses it because too often his creep creeps the wrong way. 
Hmmm.

> How do you say, "Idiot!" in Hebrew? <g>

Same word <g>

> I hope this helps.

It's very useful, thank you. 

> Always ask the printer what they want if you don't know - I have had specs 
> anywhere from .0625" bleed to .5" on larger pieces.

I do ask. I just get a nervous when I hear their answers.

> Best of luck!

Thank you.

Ariel, 

      But he still requested a schematic diagram with measurements for the margins.




This one has me totally baffled. The document you provide dictates both size AND position of all page elements. With electronic documents, I don't recall ever being asked to include a separate, dimensioned schematic -- unless the printed piece required a diecut, such as for irregularly-shaped pieces, including packaging or labels. But even then, the schematic would only indicate cuts and folds; not the position of the live matter.

The only thing that comes to mind is that the printer is stripping off the documents' crops (which determine the size of the page and the position of the elements) and he is then lost.

Neil

The only circumstance I would not want crop marks on a sheet is if they are butting the live area - and this happens occasionally. 1/8" bleed and marks 1/8" from the live area are my guidelines. If the sheet is not large enough to accommodate the marks, it's not generally a problem; center the work and trim to size. Marks not needed.