🚀 go-pugleaf

First of all, this has nothing whatsoever to do with alt.atheism
and I doubt if it has much to do with the other newsgroups you're
cross-posting to, either:
 alt.agnosticism,
 alt.atheism,
 alt.philosophy,
 bionet.biology,
 bionet.general,
 sci.skeptic,
 talk.atheism
 
You know very well that evolution is not a belief, but the label 
given to a set of observations that won't disappear even though
liars like you and Oakland try to deny them out of existence.

Would you care to explain just how, if there is no such thing as 
evolution, science has gone on in the last hundred or more years 
to investigate the mechanisms behind it, and how those mechanisms 
work? And how spinoff sciences and technologies which simply 
wouldn't exist without the facts that are called "evolution"m
work the way they do if there's no such thing? You know, little
things like genetics, genetic engineering etc - without which
modern meedicinne and agriculture wouldn't exist in the form 
they do.

Would you also care to explain why more Christians (numerically) 
than atheists accept the facts of evolution even in the educationally 
backward USA?   

In article <01be0618$bc1f4420$166ea1cf@Casem.pangea.ca> "Casey" <casem@pangea.ca> writes:
>An Evolutionist Becomes a Creationist
>    (Please watch for updated versions of this poster)
>     Roger Oakland a former evolutionist turned creationist will be doing a
>lecture tour through the province of Manitoba from November 13 through 
>November 23.   His tour will start in Virden and end in Morden with several
>lectures being given in Winnipeg and area (See schedule below).
>
>     He is a former biology instructor who taught first and second year
>students at the University of Saskatchewan.  He believed and taught the
>foundational beliefs of evolution.    Tragedy struck his home as a young
>married man and the scientific realities of that tragedy changed his life
>and transformed his understanding.

If he "believed" in evolution he should not have been allowed to 
teach any of the sciences. Because nobody needs to "believe" it 
any more than they need to "believe" the Earth orbits the Sun. 

>     For the last 20 years Roger Oakland  has spoken in numerous churches,
>conferences, universities, and educational facilities in over 35 countries.
> He is a lecturer, author, and founder of an internationally -recognized
>ministry called Understand the Times.
>    
>     He has been a guest speaker at the Goddard Space Institute in
>Washington, D.C. to over 500 NASA engineers and scientists.   Another
>unique engagement found him lecturing to Russia's Institute for Science and
>Atheism in Moscow.    He was involved in the CBS nationally televised
>documentary series "Ancient Mysteries of the Bible."

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahaha......

>   " Since 1990, Roger Oakland has traveled and lectured extensively
>throughout Russia and other republics of the former Soviet Union.  His
>creationist message presented by his books, videos and lectures is not only
>scientifically correct, it is also easily understood by both scientists and
>lay persons.   In my country, which has been brainwashed for over seventy
>years by Marxist atheistic philosophy,  Roger Oakland's message is vitally
>important in order to point people to God's existence."
>                                                                 Dimitri A.
>Kouznetsov, Ph.D., D.Sc. Chairman,
>                                                                 Moscow
>Creation Science Fellowship  
>
>    "[He] has a uniquely important message.   He is an authority on the
>"New Age Movement" and its dangers and, in addition, presents all his
>materials in a sound context of scientific Biblical Creationism.  His
>message is fascinating and relevant, as well as biblically sound."
>                                                                 Henry M.
>Morris
>                                                                 President
>Emeritus, Institute for Creation Research
>
>     Currently, he and Dr. Duane Gish (of the Institute for Creation
>Research)  are in the process of developing a curriculum on the subject of
>origins for Russian schools by request of the Russian Department of
>Education.  
>
>
>Creation Tour Schedule of Events
>
>November 13: Virden Christian Alliance Church
>                          Contact Bertha Penner @ 748- 2492, Virden
>                                        Eugene Enns @ 855-2247, Oaklake
>                                         Art Neufeld @ 556-2334, Kola      
>                    
>
>November 14: Winnipeg
>                         Home School Morning Conference
>                         Maranatha Evangelical Free Church
>910	Sturgeon Road, Winnipeg
>9:00 a.m. to 11:45 a.m.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>November 14: New Life Baptist Church, Stonewall
>                         2:00 to 4:00 p.m.
>                         Contact Rev. Henry Ozirney @ 467-5529
>
>
>
>November 15: Oakbank Baptist Church
>                         Oakbank
>                         Sunday School and AM Service
>                         Contact Rev. Doug Bittle @ 444- 3348
>
>November 15: Calvary Temple, Winnipeg
>                         Evening Service
>
>November 16: ( Unconfirmed but very likely to take place, will confirm
>later)
>                         Faith Baptist Church
>                         437 Matheson, Ave. , Winnipeg
>                         7: 00 p.m.
>                         Contact Geoff Casey @ 582-7245
>                                                            E-mail:
>casem@pangea.ca
>
>
>November 17 and 18: Oakbank Baptist Church at 7:00 p.m. service each night
>
>November 19 :  Christian School Conference,  Winnipeg
>                           Maranatha Evangelical Free Church
>                           910 Sturgeon Road, Winnipeg
>                           9:00 a.m. to 4:30 p.m.
>                           Contact Terry Lewis @ 654-0530
>                          (Details of this conference will be posted later)
>
>November 20 Through 23: In Morden at the Morden Recreation Complex
>                        7:30 p.m. each day.
>                       Co-hosted by : The Christian Programme Committee
>                       Contact: Ed Elias @ 822-6555 or 822-4171
>
>In addition, Roger Oakland and Terry Lewis will be ministering in Public
>School classrooms, on TV "It's a New Day," on radio talk shows, and meeting
>with government officials.     They will also be at Providence Seminary.
>
>
>Manitoba Tour sponsored by Christians Influencing Christians ( except where
>otherwise indicated)
>Contact Terry Lewis @ 654- 0530            Fax: 654-0532
>
>This poster put up by Geoff Casey : e-mail: casem@pangea.ca 
>
>                      
>                         
>

On 2 Nov 1998 04:27:41 GMT, "Casey" <casem@pangea.ca> wrote:

>An Evolutionist Becomes a Creationist
>    (Please watch for updated versions of this poster)
>     Roger Oakland a former evolutionist turned creationist will be doing a
>lecture tour through the province of Manitoba from November 13 through 
>November 23.   His tour will start in Virden and end in Morden with several
>lectures being given in Winnipeg and area (See schedule below).
>
>     He is a former biology instructor who taught first and second year
>students at the University of Saskatchewan.  He believed and taught the
>foundational beliefs of evolution.    Tragedy struck his home as a young
>married man and the scientific realities of that tragedy changed his life
>and transformed his understanding.
>
>     For the last 20 years Roger Oakland  has spoken in numerous churches,
>conferences, universities, and educational facilities in over 35 countries.
> He is a lecturer, author, and founder of an internationally -recognized
>ministry called Understand the Times.

Science doesn't depend on belief and faith. It depends on objective
evidence and predictability.

I guess you don't know about the scientific method.
http://www.scientificmethod.com/chapters.htm

Many people of Christian and other faiths accept evolution as the
scientific explanation for biodiversity. See the God and
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-god.html
 Evolution FAQ and the Interpretations of Genesis FAQ. 
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/interpretations.html


>    
>     He has been a guest speaker at the Goddard Space Institute in
>Washington, D.C. to over 500 NASA engineers and scientists.   Another
>unique engagement found him lecturing to Russia's Institute for Science and
>Atheism in Moscow.    He was involved in the CBS nationally televised
>documentary series "Ancient Mysteries of the Bible."

 Sun Pictures and the Noah's Ark Hoax 
        Two articles document the behind-the-scenes goings-on in the
1993 airing of Sun International Pictures' _The Incredible Discovery
of Noah's Ark_ on CBS. 
        http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ark-hoax.html - size 4,309
bytes - 9/16/97 8:03:22 PM GMT 

   2. The Incredible Mysteries of Sun Pictures 
        The line between news and entertainment is being dangerously
blurred. When a narrator calls a show a 'scientific investigation' but
the viewer is expected to somehow realize that it is just
'entertainment,' that line has been removed altogether. 
        http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ark-hoax/sun.html - size
24,715 bytes - 9/16/97 8:04:22 PM GMT 

   3. Sun Goes Down in Flames: The Jammal Ark Hoax 
        An in-depth report and analysis of behind-the-scenes goings-on
in the 1993 airing of Sun International Pictures'  _The Incredible
Discovery of Noah's Ark_ on CBS. 
        http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ark-hoax/jammal.html

> 
>   " Since 1990, Roger Oakland has traveled and lectured extensively
>throughout Russia and other republics of the former Soviet Union.  His
>creationist message presented by his books, videos and lectures is not only
>scientifically correct, it is also easily understood by both scientists and
>lay persons.   In my country, which has been brainwashed for over seventy
>years by Marxist atheistic philosophy,  Roger Oakland's message is vitally
>important in order to point people to God's existence."
>                                                                 Dimitri A.
>Kouznetsov, Ph.D., D.Sc. Chairman,
>                                                                 Moscow
>Creation Science Fellowship  

1. Creationist Dmitri Kouznetsov: Scientist? 
        Moran discusses creationist Dmitri Kouznetsov's lack of
understanding of even the most basic biological concepts, while Trott
examines Kouznetsov's use of questionable citations. 
        http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/kouznetsov.html - size 16,671
bytes - 7/15/98 10:47:54 PM GMT 

>
>    "[He] has a uniquely important message.   He is an authority on the
>"New Age Movement" and its dangers and, in addition, presents all his
>materials in a sound context of scientific Biblical Creationism.  His
>message is fascinating and relevant, as well as biblically sound."
>                                                                 Henry M.
>Morris

http://www.talkorigins.org/scripts/search/query.idq?Cmd=morris&Where=FAQs

1. Cretinism or Evilution?: Henry Morris on Other Planets 
        Cretinism or Evilution? No. 2 Edited by. E.T. Babinski. Henry
Morris on Other Planets. Previous. Contents.
        Next. Henry Morris on the existence of other planets circling
distant stars. As far as distant stars and galaxies are concerned,
there is no evidence either in science or Scripture, that any of them
hav 
        http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/2/part7.html - size 7,135
bytes - 9/16/97 8:04:28 PM GMT 

   2. Creationism Implies Racism? 
        A number of creationists have stated that evolutionary theory
leads logically to racism. This brief article discusses aspects of
leading ICR creationist Henry Morris's own beliefs that appear to be
racist. Also included is a summary analysis of the racism-creationism
connection by Tom McIver. 
        http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/racism.html - size 15,657
bytes - 10/16/98 6:25:46 PM GMT 

   3. Review of ICR Impact Article 151 
        Introduction. Background. Review of the Impact article. Review
of the Impact Article Drawings. Significance of Elongate Dinosaur
Tracks and Important Facts Omitted from the Impact Article.
Conclusions. Notes.
        Review of ICR Impact Article 151 Copyright � 1986 by. Glen J.
Kuban. This article is being mirrored from. 
        http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy/sor-ipub.html - size
38,846 bytes - 5/23/98 7:04:13 PM GMT 

   4. Retracking Those Incredible Man Tracks 
        Retracking Those Incredible Man Tracks Copyright � 1989 by.
Glen J. Kuban. This article is being mirrored from.
http:members.aol.com/Paluxy2/retrack.htm. Originally published in NCSE
Reports, Vol. 9, No. 4, 1989, Special Section Despite partial
backtracking on the Paluxy "man track" claims by creationis 
        http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy/retrack.html - size
16,568 bytes - 5/23/98 6:46:41 PM GMT 

   5. Cretinism or Evilution?: The "Center of God's Interest" 
        Cretinism or Evilution? No. 2 Edited by. E.T. Babinski. The
"Center of God's Interest". Previous. Contents.
        Next. Is the Earth the "center of God's interest" with the
rest of the cosmos providing various essential services for the Earth
and its inhabitants?It is easy to see why "creation scientists" do not

        http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/2/part8.html - size 12,115
bytes - 9/16/97 8:04:28 PM GMT 



>                                                                 President
>Emeritus, Institute for Creation Research
>
>     Currently, he and Dr. Duane Gish (of the Institute for Creation

http://www.talkorigins.org/scripts/search/query.idq?Cmd=gish&Where=FAQs

>Research)  are in the process of developing a curriculum on the subject of

The Creation Research Society's Creed 
        This article describes the statement of belief to which the
CRS requires its members adhere. One wonders why creationists find it
necessary to restrict the findings they allow themselves to make.
Could it be that the evidence points in another direction? 
        http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/crs-creed.html - size 9,625
bytes - 7/1/98 9:38:05 PM GMT 

>origins for Russian schools by request of the Russian Department of
>Education.  
>
>
>Creation Tour Schedule of Events
>
>November 13: Virden Christian Alliance Church
>                          Contact Bertha Penner @ 748- 2492, Virden
>                                        Eugene Enns @ 855-2247, Oaklake
>                                         Art Neufeld @ 556-2334, Kola      
>                    
>
>November 14: Winnipeg
>                         Home School Morning Conference
>                         Maranatha Evangelical Free Church
>910	Sturgeon Road, Winnipeg
>9:00 a.m. to 11:45 a.m.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>November 14: New Life Baptist Church, Stonewall
>                         2:00 to 4:00 p.m.
>                         Contact Rev. Henry Ozirney @ 467-5529
>
>
>
>November 15: Oakbank Baptist Church
>                         Oakbank
>                         Sunday School and AM Service
>                         Contact Rev. Doug Bittle @ 444- 3348
>
>November 15: Calvary Temple, Winnipeg
>                         Evening Service
>
>November 16: ( Unconfirmed but very likely to take place, will confirm
>later)
>                         Faith Baptist Church
>                         437 Matheson, Ave. , Winnipeg
>                         7: 00 p.m.
>                         Contact Geoff Casey @ 582-7245
>                                                            E-mail:
>casem@pangea.ca
>
>
>November 17 and 18: Oakbank Baptist Church at 7:00 p.m. service each night
>
>November 19 :  Christian School Conference,  Winnipeg
>                           Maranatha Evangelical Free Church
>                           910 Sturgeon Road, Winnipeg
>                           9:00 a.m. to 4:30 p.m.
>                           Contact Terry Lewis @ 654-0530
>                          (Details of this conference will be posted later)
>
>November 20 Through 23: In Morden at the Morden Recreation Complex
>                        7:30 p.m. each day.
>                       Co-hosted by : The Christian Programme Committee
>                       Contact: Ed Elias @ 822-6555 or 822-4171
>
>In addition, Roger Oakland and Terry Lewis will be ministering in Public
>School classrooms, on TV "It's a New Day," on radio talk shows, and meeting
>with government officials.     They will also be at Providence Seminary.
>
>
>Manitoba Tour sponsored by Christians Influencing Christians ( except where
>otherwise indicated)
>Contact Terry Lewis @ 654- 0530            Fax: 654-0532
>
>This poster put up by Geoff Casey : e-mail: casem@pangea.ca 

Talk Origins Archive FAQ
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html

Suspicious Creationist Credentials FAQ
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/credentials.html

Talk.Origins Archive's Creationism FAQs
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-creationists.html

Jehovah's Witnesses and Evolution
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/jw-evolution.html

"Why Christianity Must Change or Die : A Bishop Speaks to Believers in
Exile" by John Shelby Spong

"Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism : A Bishop Rethinks the
Meaning of Scripture" by John Shelby Spong

"Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the
      heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and
      orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances,...  and
      this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and
      experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an
      unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things,
      claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should
      do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, lest
      the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to
      scorn."

            -- St. Augustine, "De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim" 
            (The Literal Meaning of Genesis)


*****************************************************
"Science is the true theology" -- Thomas Paine 
(as quoted in Emerson: The Mind on Fire page 153)
"The Age of Paine" by Jon Katz
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/3.05/paine.html
*****************************************************

"Casey" <casem@pangea.ca> wrote:

:An Evolutionist Becomes a Creationist
   
Anyone can become a con man a liar if given enough incentive.
 
:   " Since 1990, Roger Oakland has traveled and lectured extensively
:throughout Russia and other republics of the former Soviet Union.  His
:creationist message presented by his books, videos and lectures is not only
:scientifically correct, it is also easily understood by both scientists and
:lay persons.   In my country, which has been brainwashed for over seventy
:years by Marxist atheistic philosophy,  Roger Oakland's message is vitally
:important in order to point people to God's existence."
:                                                                 Dimitri A.
:Kouznetsov, Ph.D., D.Sc. Chairman,
  
Oxymoron from a Christian moron.
 
:    "[He] has a uniquely important message.   He is an authority on the
:"New Age Movement" and its dangers and, in addition, presents all his
:materials in a sound context of scientific Biblical Creationism.  His
:message is fascinating and relevant, as well as biblically sound."
:                                                                 Henry M.
:Morris
:                                                                 President
:Emeritus, Institute for Creation Research
  
Ah, well, if Henry M. Morris says it then it must be a lie.
 
Barry

This crap is total drivel (Is that redundant?).

If I find an ignorant creationist (Now that is redundant!) who moves
out of the backwoods, becomes educated, is capable of
understanding the nature of science, and thus no longer is
ignorant enough to be a creationist, does this argue that
creationism is wrong?

Hey, maybe that's not such a good analogy.

[deletion of all irrelevant materials]

Barry O'Grady wrote:

> "Casey" <casem@pangea.ca> wrote:
>
> :An Evolutionist Becomes a Creationist...............................
>

An Evolutionist  CAN       be / become           a Creationist (both together)
without contradiction.
ie believing that God creates  living organisms (or the everything in the
universe) does not /need not in any way prevent one from believing in the
existance of the mechanism of the
phenomenon of evolution....... the slow changing of living organism as a group.
So.......God creates lifes in their various forms.......and then'instruct' the
mechanism of Evolution to continue to improve the organisms with respect to
their changing enviroment...

(If believing that God creating Humans wholesome without going thr amoeba and
monkeys
seems very "unscientific"........try believing the 'big bang' that bangs
everything materials out of nowhere and in no time...........)

arron wrote in message <36485EAC.6B9E7C65@pacific.net.sg>...
>
>
>Barry O'Grady wrote:
>
>> "Casey" <casem@pangea.ca> wrote:
>>
>> :An Evolutionist Becomes a Creationist...............................
>>
>
>An Evolutionist  CAN       be / become           a Creationist (both
together)
>without contradiction.
>ie believing that God creates  living organisms (or the everything in the
>universe) does not /need not in any way prevent one from believing in the
>existance of the mechanism of the
>phenomenon of evolution....... the slow changing of living organism as a
group.
>So.......God creates lifes in their various forms.......and then'instruct'
the
>mechanism of Evolution to continue to improve the organisms with respect to
>their changing enviroment...

I agree that we can beleive in a God (more likely without any
anthropomorphism) who  (that) create the universe with the evolution
process.

Although I would say that the "slow evolution" your taking about is not
exactly what anthropologist reported. They have repertoriate thousands and
thousands of specimens and what they established is there is some "step" in
the evolution that invalid a slow evolution from a living form to another.
This is unpleasent for Darwinists, but is a fact.

I beleive that a God intervention is happening from time to time in the
evolution to manipulate the species and permit higher expressions of life.
But this also is not a fact.

Claude

>(If believing that God creating Humans wholesome without going thr amoeba
and
>monkeys
>seems very "unscientific"........try believing the 'big bang' that bangs
>everything materials out of nowhere and in no time...........)
>
>
>

arron wrote in message <36485EAC.6B9E7C65@pacific.net.sg>...

>An Evolutionist  CAN       be / become           a Creationist (both
together)
>without contradiction.
>ie believing that God creates  living organisms (or the everything in the
>universe) does not /need not in any way prevent one from believing in the
>existance of the mechanism of the
>phenomenon of evolution....... the slow changing of living organism as a
group.
>So.......God creates lifes in their various forms.......and then'instruct'
the
>mechanism of Evolution to continue to improve the organisms with respect to
>their changing enviroment...


If you were an omnipotent being, would you create a scenario that *required*
adaptation?  Nonsense, indeed it would be impossible.  You'd have an
inability to create something flawed in the first place.

J. Adam Desjardins
http://www.intap.net/~j/aah < Agnostic, Atheist & Humanist Website

In article <36485EAC.6B9E7C65@pacific.net.sg>,
  arron <kcchin@pacific.net.sg> wrote:
>
>
> Barry O'Grady wrote:
>
> > "Casey" <casem@pangea.ca> wrote:
> >
> > :An Evolutionist Becomes a Creationist...............................
> >
>
> An Evolutionist  CAN       be / become           a Creationist (both together)
> without contradiction.
> ie believing that God creates  living organisms (or the everything in the
> universe) does not /need not in any way prevent one from believing in the
> existance of the mechanism of the
> phenomenon of evolution....... the slow changing of living organism as a group.
> So.......God creates lifes in their various forms.......and then'instruct' the
> mechanism of Evolution to continue to improve the organisms with respect to
> their changing enviroment...
>
> (If believing that God creating Humans wholesome without going thr amoeba and
> monkeys
> seems very "unscientific"........try believing the 'big bang' that bangs
> everything materials out of nowhere and in no time...........)
>
>

--reply-- Ok I gotta question.Why do you think god would want to create
life,humans the universe?


I think that God is not omnipitant. And he created us to learn. I beleave
that the higher form of life commonly refered as god is actually a mass
collection of energys, that is self aware.

--
Visit Duh-Net
http://www.murlin.com/~dshaffer/
Visit my Irc:
irc.duh-net.org 6667 #highway420

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