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Article #140Gay's in the bible???
From: Michael D
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:00
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:00
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11267 bytes
David and Jonathan The story goes that King Saul began to hate David and wanted him killed, because he saw him as a threat to his throne. Eventually, David did succeed Saul as King - but the rest of the story is not as well discussed. I am sure many people will read this and cry out "Two men in the Bible loving each other - that's absurd!". But, how can pure love be blasphemy when God is in it? Paul addressed it this way "To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure." First, both David and Jonathan had wives (as was customary then - and now). David was described as being ruddy, with a fine appearance and handsome features (1 Sam 16:12 and 1 Sam 17:42) so apparently he was quite good-looking. When Jonathan first saw David he was immediately drawn to him."When he (David) had finished speaking to Saul, the soul of Jonathan was knit to to soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. And Saul took him away that day, and would not let him return to his father's house. Then Jonathan made a covenant with David, becasue he loved him as his own soul. Then Jonathan stripped himself of his robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his sword, and even his armor and bow and girdle. (Sam 18:1-4) In this passage it speaks of an "immediate bond of love", their souls being "in unison," their souls being "knit", etc. Genesis 2:7, as written in the original Hebrew, describes how God blew the spirit into the body of Adam that God had formed from earth, so that Adam became a living soul. This means that "soul", in the ancient Israelite times and this in Old Testament Hebrew, represents a combination of body and spirit. Thus the two men appear to have loved each other both physically and emotionally. Also, since people in those days did not wear underwear, by removing his robe Jonathan would have stripped himself naked in front of David. That would be considered extremely unusual behavior then (and quite possibly now). Another indication that their relationship was more than friendship and quite possibly physical. It seems as though it was love at first sight between David and Jonathan. They professed their love several places in the scriptures. 1 Sam 20:3 " David replied (to Jonathan) Your father knows full well that I have found favor in your eyes." and Jonathan continued "Whatever you say, I will do for you" David was right , Saul (Jonathan's dad) did not let this go unnoticed. He confronted Jonathan about his love for David "Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said to him, "You son of a perverse, rebellious woman, do I not know that you have chosen the son of Jesse to your own shame, and to the shame of your mother's nakedness. For as long as the son of Jesse lives on this earth neither you nor your kingdom shall be established." Saul began to plot the death of David, and Jonathan discovered his father's evil plan and went to warn David and convince David to escape. They met to say good-bye to one another- Sam 20:41 "David rose from behind the stone heap and fell on his face to the ground and bowed three times; and they kissed one another and wept with one another until David recovered himself. " Other translations have a different ending to the verse: "...and they kissed one another and wept with one another, until David exceeded." (KJV) "...and they kissed one another and wept with one another until David got control of himself." (Amplified Bible) "and they sadly shook hands, tears running down their cheeks until David could weep no more." (Living Bible) As can be seen, the translators of the Living Bible apparently could not handle the thought of two adult men kissing, so they simply said the two shook hands! This is less than honest. The original Hebrew text says that they kissed each other and wept together until David became large; i.e. had an erection. Again, the thoughts of David becoming sexually aroused after kissing Jonathan is too threatening for Bible translators, so they either ignored the ending entirely or created one of their own. When Jonathan died, David wrote a lamentation , 2 Sam 25-26 Jonathan lies slain upon thy high places, I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; very pleasant have you been to me, you love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women". In the society of ancient Israel, it was not considered proper for a man and woman to have a platonic relationship. Men and women rarely spoke to each other in public. Since David's only relationships with women would have been sexual in nature, then he must be referring to sexual love here. It would not make sense in this verse to compare platonic love for a man with sexual love for a woman; they are two completely different phenomenon. Marriage I have had many men from "Promise Keepers" write to tell me that it is possible to have a deep love for another man without being homosexual. I fully agree. It seems as though Saul acted exactly as most fathers do upon finding their son has an attraction for another male - he ranted, raved, and blamed the mother. The reference to nakedness within Biblical phrases tends to represent a topic of sex. By discussing Jonathan's actions relative to his mother's nakedness implies a more intense sexual attraction than just friends. Also, many people state that same-sex marriages are not of the Bible and therefore forbidden by God. In looking at Jonathan and David's relatiionship further we find a possible inclusion of same-sex marriages within God Holy Word. In1 Samuel 18:20-21 "Now Saul's daughter Michal was in love with David, and when they told Saul about it, he was pleased. 'I will give her to him', he thought, 'so that she may be a snare to him and so that the hand of the Philistines may be against him .Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law, in the one of the twain." Saul's belief was that David would be so distracted by a wife that he would not be an effective fighter and would be killed by the Philistines. He offered first his daughter Merab, but that was rejected, presumably by her. Then he offered Michal. The KJV preserves the original text in its clearest form; it implies that David would become Saul's son-in-law through "one of the twain." "Twain" means "two", so the verse seems to refer to one of Saul's two daughters. Unfortunately, this is a mistranslation. The phrase "the one of" does not exist in Hebrew originally. The words are shown in italics in the King James Version; which is an admission by the translators that they made the words up. Thus, if the KJV translators had been truly honest, they would have written:"Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law, in the twain." In modern English, this might be written: "Today, you are son-in-law with two of my children" That would refer to both his son Jonathan and his daughter Michal. The Hebrew original text would appear to recognize David and Jonathan's homosexual relationship as equivalent to David and Michal's heterosexual marriage. So it is possible that there is Biblical approval of same-sex marriage. Eunuchs At first glance, it does not seem to make an enormous amount of sense to discuss eunuchs in relation to homosexuality. In our current usage of the word, eunuchs are those people who are physically unable to father children due to castration. However, a more generic definition would be one who is physically unable to father children. In that context, homosexuals would qualify as eunuchs in that their sexual activities can not produce children. In Matthew 19:12, Christ says "For there are eunuchs who have been born incapable of marriage, and there are eunuchs who have been made by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves incapable of marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let him who is able to accept this, accept it" (Amplified Bible). Jesus states that there are some who are born incapable of marriage. This could mean that there are people who have such low sex drives that they simply not interested in sexual relationships or marriage - we tend to think of them as the confirmed old bachelor. It also could include, homosexuals who have no desire for a physical relationship with a member of the opposite sex and thus would be incapable of such a relationship. To the people living during the time of the writing of the Bible it was simply assumed that all people would marry and have children. If one did not do so, it would be assumed that there was something wrong with him, i.e. he may be classified as a eunuch. Thus, it is possible that many people who were gay would have been seen as eunuchs. We do not know this for fact, but we do know that many men were made to be eunuchs by men in order to gaurd their harems and Paul spoke about those who chose celibacy in an effort to more fully serve God ( as with today's Roman Catholic priests). These two cover the last two categories spoken of by Christ, so we are still left with the first category. During Biblical times, eunuchs were not allowed entry into the house of the Lord and were generally dispised. (Not too dissimiliar to homosexuals today.) Christ attempted to change the attitudes of people of His day and in Isaiah it is prophesised that there would be a day where many eunuchs were believers. Today there are many believing GLBT people. Paul speaks of one eunuch in Acts 8: 26-39. The eunuch was a high ranking official of the queen of Ethiopia and he had come to Jerusalem to worship. He was on the road from Jerusalem to Gaza, returning home and reading the book of Isaiah. Philip had been commanded by an angel of the Lord to be on that road that day. Philip caught up with the man and preached the Word of God (dispite the prohibition of allowing a eunuch to worship). As they neared water Philip baptizes the eunuch (again quite a taboo) and is then wisked away by the Spirit of the Lord. Tradition has it that this eunuch introduced Christianity to Ethiopia.
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X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 111d0d,4584df6c61e3c87,start X-Google-Attributes: gid111d0d,public X-Google-Thread: 10b620,4584df6c61e3c87,start X-Google-Attributes: gid10b620,public X-Google-Thread: 10f18e,4584df6c61e3c87,start X-Google-Attributes: gid10f18e,public X-Google-Thread: f98ed,4584df6c61e3c87,start X-Google-Attributes: gidf98ed,public X-Google-Thread: 10df0c,4584df6c61e3c87,start X-Google-Attributes: gid10df0c,public X-Google-Thread: f4b1b,4584df6c61e3c87,start X-Google-Attributes: gidf4b1b,public X-Google-Thread: fa3c5,4584df6c61e3c87,start X-Google-Attributes: gidfa3c5,public From: "Michael D" <Michaeld160379@hotmail.com> Subject: Gay's in the bible??? Date: 1998/12/16 Message-ID: <7572bp$uhd$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> X-Deja-AN: 422705599 Organization: OzEmail Ltd. X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Newsgroups: alt.alien.research,alt.nuke.europe,alt.nuke.the.USA,aus.politics,aus.politics.guns,aus.religion,aus.religion.christian