🚀 go-pugleaf

On Sun, 29 Dec 1996 19:04:55 -0500, "Derek Buchler"
<stephers@sprynet.com> wrote:

>[Note, I've combined a couple of your other messages into this one]
and edited some of my replies, I see   :-(
>
>> >Sorry.  Can't comment on that since I wasn't privy to the conversation.  I
>> >only have your side of the story on this one.  Since you have yet to say
>> >one thing that's good about Netcetera, I'd have to treat it as
>> >"suspicious".
>
>> ARE YOU CALLING ME A LIAR???  There is no need for personal abuse.
>
>
>What personal abuse? I offered to help you out with your Netcetera
>problems, and all I've seen is complaints.  Go back and reread what I
>wrote.  I said I wasn't going to get involved in who said what.
>
Sorry I shouted but, really, you did use the words "suspicious" and
"only have your side of the story".  What else does this mean?  Is it
reasonable to say you "wasn't going to be involved in who said what"
immediately after calling my statements "suspicious"?  Defend
Netcetera if you must but be fair.  I provided proof.
 
>> Okay, the following is an extract of an email sent to their customers
>> on 28 October:
>
>
>> TO ALL REGISTERED USERS OF NETC
>> ===================================
>> 
>> With effect from today's date, 28th October 1996, all telephone
>> support
>> will be charged at 25.00 (twenty five pounds) per hour with a minimum
>> charge of 15.00 (fifteen pounds).
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>Yup.  I recall that message.  It didn't bother me one bit.  I don't know
>why it bothers you.  Unfortunately, this type of support policy has become
>common here in the U.S. 
>
"Unfortunately"?  No wonder this type of support policy has become
common in the U.S. if people are not willing to fight it.
Suppose you buy a new car.  After a month, it blows up.  You take it
back to the garage and they refuse to have anything further to do with
it or you.  Would you simply say "Never mind.  I will patch it up
until the next time"?
It is not the fact that NetcGold is full of bugs.  I have also written
a few buggy programs in my time!  However I have NEVER refused to help
one of my customers.  Also I have NEVER changed the terms of any of my
customer's contracts AFTER he has purchased the goods from me and, in
accordance with the Sale of Goods Act, will make refunds if anything
doesn't work.  This is called professionalism.
I wouldn't mind so much if Netcetera were fellow shareware authors, as
I fully understand the problems (don't I just :-))  However Netcetera
is a corporation and I really did expect a more business-like
attitude.  Remember that they do state that NetcGold is not "mere"
shareware and "unlimited technical support is provided for registrated
users".  Not to me, it seems......
BTW, judging from some of your previous comments, it seems to me that
you believe that NetcGold is shareware & should therefore be
supported.  Whilst I am willing to support shareware authors, I expect
a business-like service from commercial developers.

>If you think that Win 3.0/3.1 or even Win 95 are OS's, I suggest
>you take some courses on OS development.
>
eh???
>
>
>> >> Thanks for the offer, much appreciated.  However, I would prefer
>> >> support from the Netcetera people themselves, as I paid for this.
>> >> Obviously NG support isn't the answer.
>
>> >That's foolish, IMHO.  I don't care WHERE the support comes from.  I
>> >just care that I get it.  The net has a vast array or resources to offer. 
>> >You should use them.  
>
I do use them.  I wouldn't need to pay my ISP if I didn't use them
:-)    However, you know yourself that NGs are a hit & miss affair.
Days or weeks later you MAY receive an answer.  Nothing wrong with
this as a back-up.  However I PAID Netcetera for full support and they
won't even answer my emails.  As Netcetera wrote the program, they are
experts on it and therefore I should be able to rest easy in the
knowledge that any problems that crop up (as they do in all
applications, even the best) would have the best chance of being
solved by them.
BTW, someone said that the reason why they don't answer my emails is
that they don't like my tone.  Netcetera should be more business-like
towards their customers (They themselves say that NetcGold is a
COMMERCIAL package).  I freely admit that I am angry with them but,
ask yourself, why?  Don't put the cart before the horse.  The very
reason why I am angry with them is that they don't answer my emails
and not the other way around.  Naturally I wasn't angry when I first
contacted them.......
>
>
>> >can
>> >you mention anything you LIKE about Netcetera?  You obviously saw
>> >something positive in the program since you did register it.
>
>> I used the Lite version to try it out and it worked fine.  
>
>That still doesn't tell me what you liked about the program.  C'mon.  I
>know you can do it.  Say something positive for a change.  :)
>
Okay, I first tried the Lite version and it worked fine.  Nothing
wrong with this at all (BTW, I have said this in a previous message).
I decided to upgrade as some of the features were disabled (that's
okay as well, not exactly the original shareware concept but fine by
me).  They said they had PGP coding/decoding in NetcGold but I never
got that far before it crashed.  I also liked the multiple-user
feature but they didn't tell me at the time that this was limited to
only five users before a further fee is payable for each extra one.
When I contacted them about this, I was told that, as Virtual Access
charges $500 for each extra user, they charged as well.  They
literally dared me to (quote) "find more suitable software" and now I
can get no further response from them.  I have since found many other
programs with multi-user features and there are PGP front ends I can
use if and when I get around to using this.  I now cannot get at my
email/news in NetcGold.

>> However, when I paid for it, I was given the "new" NetcGold.
>
>Which still puzzles me.  NetcGold has been rock solid on my machine.
>
Why does this puzzle you?  Not all machines are the same.  Just
because it works on yours doesn't mean it works on all others.  Fair
enough, it happens.  When something doesn't work, don't contact the
suppliers, eh?  They haven't time to sort out problems, they're too
busy cashing your check.

>BTW, I have to ask this "'cross the pond question."  I've never heard the
>expression "clash" when it comes to computers.  Over here in Yankee land,
>we tend to use term "crash".  Are they one in the same?
>
Oh.....   Sorry about this.  You say you are trying to help me (& not
defending Netcetera which you have no connection with).  Don't you
think that flaming someone over a simple typing error is going a bit
too far?  Haven't you made typing errors before?  Why do you think it
necessary to make a point of this?  I don't understand.
>
>Maybe so.  Or maybe they've given up on you as customer since they think
>you'll never be satisfied, no matter what happens.  That's the gist of
>most this thread, isn't it?
>
When I first contacted Netcetera, I was simply a customer trying to
get help.  Isn't that natural?  Yes, I ASKED for help and didn't
demand it.  You seem to think that Netcetera (a business) was somehow
upset at my attitude and therefore now has every right to ignore me.
This is illogical.  I admit I am angry now (and this may have shown
through some of my messages).  However, at the start, I was just an
ordinary simple guy trying to get help from this big business.  You
ask what will satisfy me?  Just a working program, that's all.  I paid
for it so it isn't too much to ask, is it?  Normally I'm quite
easy-going but I do like to get what I pay for.

>
>> >Are you 100% sure that your news server information is configured
>> >correctly (i.e. no typos)?
>
Yes, first thing I checked.

>> Yes, as it worked OK for a time & then stopped.
>
>O.K.  So something has changed.  Is it possible that your news server now
>requires authorization?  Have you tried, just for the heck of it, to
>reenter your news server info.  How many retries do you have it configured
>for?
>
No, my server doesn't now require authorization.  In fact I am using
Agent to upload this with the same details.
>
>> I defrag end of every month.
>
>I'd defrag much more often than that, if I were you.  While it doesn't
>explain why you can't connect, you'll see a vast improvement on your
>machine in all applications if you degrag more frequently.  I defrag every
>2-3 days.  Databases especially will cause heavy fragmentation.
>
Windows 95 tells me the percentage that is fragmented & act
accordingly.  End of the month suits me so far but I keep an eye of
it.

>> >What other programs are running when you are on-line?  
>> Usually Netscape but no new programs were installed when it stopped
>> working.
>
>Did you upgrade any of your existing programs at around the same time?
>How about video drivers (a major culprit in many areas)?  Are you
>running any video management s/w. Did you employ DPMS on your machine?
>
This is one of the first things I thought of.  As a programmer myself,
I am well aware of conflicts.
>
>>>> BTW:  They are supposed to read these newsgroups, 
>
>>>OOPS!  I must have missed that one in the docs or my user agreement.  Where
>>>does it say that they're "supposed to read these newsgroups"?
>
>>In the Readme file.  It is simple enough to find (near the bottom)
>>but, for your information, here it is again:
>
>[Snip Happens]
The statement that Netcetera promises full support has been snipped.
>
>>===================================================
>>Support for Lite users will be provided via our monitoring of the
>>following Newsgroups :-
>>
>>	alt.winsock
>>	alt.usenet.offline-reader
>>	news.software.readers
>>	demon.ip.support.winsock
>>===================================================
>
>>Fair enough?  
>
>
>Certainly is.  I stand corrected.  Thanks for pointing that out.
>I guess I should read the docs more closely. Of course, you're no longer a
>lite user, but that's another story.
>
I'm really surprised at you.  You seem determined to defend Netcetera
to the last.  Okay, I'm no longer a Lite user.  As I've registered,
I'm supposed to get email support but, getting none, I am forced to
seek help here.  They say they read these newsgroups.  They come
across my messages.  "What's this", they should ask themselves "a
customer of ours in trouble.....Ah, it's a registered user.  He's
already paid so we can get nothing more out of him.  Let's just ignore
him".  
Two points should be made:
(a)  If a customer of mine (or anyone else) asks for help, I give it.
It makes no difference whether they use the Lite version or Registered
version or whether they use email or NGs.
(b) Nobody from Netcetera has replied to this thread (as far as I
know).

>> BTW, they also say they give full & unlimited support to
>> all registered users.  
>
>Yes, they did.  But you forgot to mention that the readme file was posted
>on August 17, 1996.  Their email message, as you've quoted it, says that
>from October 28, they've had a change in policy.  I understand that you
>may not like that policy, but that doesn't seem to be your gripe anyway.
>
I didn't forget anything.  The email message was sent AFTER I paid for
their product.  You don't seem to understand.  To put it another way,
if you buy a toaster and the shop guarantees it for a year.  After a
month, it blows up and you take it back to the shop.  The shop then
says "Sorry, we 've had a change of policy since you purchased this.
We no longer guarantee our goods".  Are you saying you will meekly
turn around and get it repaired down the street?
Of course, any firm can change their policy but it should only refer
to new customers and it's then up to them whether to buy or not.

------------------------------
Regards

Chris Jones
chris@abint.demon.co.uk
-----------------------------