🚀 go-pugleaf

"D.A.Kopf" wrote:
> 
> [New thread since References line becoming too long for my news mailer]
> 
> Murray Love wrote in message I0%_4.7705$F9.266005@news1.gvcl1.bc.home.com...
> <snip>
> >
> > This is a genuine question:  what is the attraction of
> > decentralization?
> 
> people can use unnecessary electricity
> without realizing the hidden consequences. 
> 
> There is also the self-sufficiency factor; where I live a major hurricane or
> ice storm will will pass through every few years and typically cut grid power
> for 1-2 weeks. 

Other possible advantages of decentralized (distributed) power
generation:  combined heat and power applications such as district
heating, and reduced transmission and distribution losses may boost
over-all system efficiency.  This is just speculation on my part and I'd
love to see references to studies that show this may be true, or actual
demonstrations that support it.

-dl

"R.H. Allen" <kkarie@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:393d3c20.48185830@enews.newsguy.com...
> On 06 Jun 2000 10:20:06 EDT, "D.A.Kopf" <dak@dakx.com> wrote:
>
> >[New thread since References line becoming too long for my news mailer]
> >
> >Murray Love wrote in message
I0%_4.7705$F9.266005@news1.gvcl1.bc.home.com...
> ><snip>
> >>
> >> Thoughtful post, ant.  Thank you for being civil.  As an aside, I don't
see
> >> the attraction of decentralized power.  I like my huge utility; it
never
> >> goes out on me, it's cheap, and if there's a problem I know who's
> >> responsible.  This is a genuine question:  what is the attraction of
> >> decentralization?
>
> Adding to the list: I've been told that decentralized schemes can help
> stabilize the power grid, though I don't have any references for that.
> They can also reduce transmission lengths, since generators can be
> placed closer to loads, and support system modularity so that
> generating capacity can be added in smaller, less capital-intensive
> increments than, say, a 1000 MWe coal plant. Of course, the generating
> technology itself is also a factor -- for example, PV is well-suited
> to a highly distributed system, natural gas to a somewhat less
> distributed system, and nuclear to a highly centralized system.
>
> There was a rather interesting article in Renewable Energy World some
> months back discussing how small natural gas turbines are leading many
> utilities to start supporting distributed generation. It went a bit
> deeper into the issue, though I don't have the article handy.

On 06 Jun 2000 10:20:06 EDT, "D.A.Kopf" <dak@dakx.com> wrote:

>[New thread since References line becoming too long for my news mailer]
>
>Murray Love wrote in message I0%_4.7705$F9.266005@news1.gvcl1.bc.home.com...
><snip>
>> 
>> Thoughtful post, ant.  Thank you for being civil.  As an aside, I don't see
>> the attraction of decentralized power.  I like my huge utility; it never
>> goes out on me, it's cheap, and if there's a problem I know who's
>> responsible.  This is a genuine question:  what is the attraction of
>> decentralization?
>
>Possibly it's too cheap, in that people can use unnecessary electricity
>without realizing the hidden consequences. Particularly in the workplace when
>they don't see the electric bill. I've known people using electric heaters
>under their desk because the air conditioning was set too cold! You'd probably
>reduce consumption if you had to do your own maintenance, or if your local
>plant made less noise and smelly emissions whenever you switched off a load.
>In my experience most of this reduction is effortless - turning off lights,
>replacing most-used lights with fluorescents, using battery-powered or wind-up
>clocks, plugging wall warts and always-on appliances into switchable outlets, etc.

These actions may be effortless, but they do almost nothing to reduce
electricity load.

>
>A substantial tax on grid power might also lead to usage reductions. Here in
>the US half the pump price of gasoline goes to tax monies which typically by
>law can only be used for transportation. If something similar were done with
>an electricity tax the revenue could stimulate all forms of energy research.

An energy research tax, to be used in pollution remediation for
instance, is an excellent idea, but cannot be uni-laterally
implemented - it has an instant negative effect on the local economy.


>There is also the self-sufficiency factor; where I live a major hurricane or
>ice storm will will pass through every few years and typically cut grid power
>for 1-2 weeks. For me, having power during those times more than makes up for
>several years of PV system maintenance.

This is a good reason to have a backup diesel or petrol generator, but
why would you spend all that money trickle charge systems and
batteries?


...Greig

...Greig

Greig Ebeling wrote:
> 
> On 06 Jun 2000 10:20:06 EDT, "D.A.Kopf" <dak@dakx.com> wrote:
> 
> >[New thread since References line becoming too long for my news mailer]
> >
> >Murray Love wrote in message I0%_4.7705$F9.266005@news1.gvcl1.bc.home.com...
> ><snip>
> >>
> >> Thoughtful post, ant.  Thank you for being civil.  As an aside, I don't see
> >> the attraction of decentralized power.  I like my huge utility; it never
> >> goes out on me, it's cheap, and if there's a problem I know who's
> >> responsible.  This is a genuine question:  what is the attraction of
> >> decentralization?
> >
> >Possibly it's too cheap, in that people can use unnecessary electricity
> >without realizing the hidden consequences. Particularly in the workplace when
> >they don't see the electric bill. I've known people using electric heaters
> >under their desk because the air conditioning was set too cold! You'd probably
> >reduce consumption if you had to do your own maintenance, or if your local
> >plant made less noise and smelly emissions whenever you switched off a load.
> >In my experience most of this reduction is effortless - turning off lights,
> >replacing most-used lights with fluorescents, using battery-powered or wind-up
> >clocks, plugging wall warts and always-on appliances into switchable outlets, > >etc.
> 
> These actions may be effortless, but they do almost nothing to reduce
> electricity load.

I average 12KWH a day, down from about 30 KWH pre-PV system. Computer monitor
and lights are now turned off when not in use. Replacing 3 100 watt bulbs with
15 watt fluorescents saved 1 KWH/day (and gives better light). Switchable
outlets on the TV, computer, microwave, and coffemaker another 0.5 KWH/day. As
you say, not noticeable on the power meters at the nuke plant [I like to think
of it as around 70 gallons a day less water vaporized up the cooling tower,
others might wish to think in pounds of CO2]. But from what I observe,
everyone using these same techniques in the workplace would save considerably more.

> >
> >A substantial tax on grid power might also lead to usage reductions. Here in
> >the US half the pump price of gasoline goes to tax monies which typically by
> >law can only be used for transportation. If something similar were done with
> >an electricity tax the revenue could stimulate all forms of energy research.
> 
> An energy research tax, to be used in pollution remediation for
> instance, is an excellent idea, but cannot be uni-laterally
> implemented - it has an instant negative effect on the local economy.

Yes, but the same could have been said for gasoline taxes, and nonetheless
they have been successfully implemented.

> 
> >There is also the self-sufficiency factor; where I live a major hurricane or
> >ice storm will will pass through every few years and typically cut grid power
> >for 1-2 weeks. For me, having power during those times more than makes up for
> >several years of PV system maintenance.
> 
> This is a good reason to have a backup diesel or petrol generator, but
> why would you spend all that money trickle charge systems and
> batteries?

Just one KWH marine battery, allows adequate lights plus running the TV or
computer up to five hours overnight. Most loads (computer, water pumping,
washing machine) can be shifted to run directly off the PV panels when the sun
is shining. The portable generator is noisy and hard on the back, and now no
longer needed since the battery-inverter system could be charged from the car
or tractor as a last resort. Interesting to consider that electric vehicles
might supply much of the home's power, with appropriate docking. Rather than
charge them at home, charge them in the parking lot at work (using
cogeneration or PV) and bring the power back home every night. A future
employment perk?

On 07 Jun 2000 10:35:53 EDT, "D.A.Kopf" <dak@dakx.com> wrote:

>Greig Ebeling wrote:
>> 
>> On 06 Jun 2000 10:20:06 EDT, "D.A.Kopf" <dak@dakx.com> wrote:
>> 
>> >[New thread since References line becoming too long for my news mailer]
>> >
>> >Murray Love wrote in message I0%_4.7705$F9.266005@news1.gvcl1.bc.home.com...
>> ><snip>
>> >>
>> >> Thoughtful post, ant.  Thank you for being civil.  As an aside, I don't see
>> >> the attraction of decentralized power.  I like my huge utility; it never
>> >> goes out on me, it's cheap, and if there's a problem I know who's
>> >> responsible.  This is a genuine question:  what is the attraction of
>> >> decentralization?
>> >
>> >Possibly it's too cheap, in that people can use unnecessary electricity
>> >without realizing the hidden consequences. Particularly in the workplace when
>> >they don't see the electric bill. I've known people using electric heaters
>> >under their desk because the air conditioning was set too cold! You'd probably
>> >reduce consumption if you had to do your own maintenance, or if your local
>> >plant made less noise and smelly emissions whenever you switched off a load.
>> >In my experience most of this reduction is effortless - turning off lights,
>> >replacing most-used lights with fluorescents, using battery-powered or wind-up
>> >clocks, plugging wall warts and always-on appliances into switchable outlets, > >etc.
>> 
>> These actions may be effortless, but they do almost nothing to reduce
>> electricity load.
>
>I average 12KWH a day, down from about 30 KWH pre-PV system. 

That is a handy saving!

>Computer monitor
>and lights are now turned off when not in use.Replacing 3 100 watt bulbs with
>15 watt fluorescents saved 1 KWH/day (and gives better light). Switchable
>outlets on the TV, computer, microwave, and coffemaker another 0.5 KWH/day. As
>you say, not noticeable on the power meters at the nuke plant [I like to think
>of it as around 70 gallons a day less water vaporized up the cooling tower,
>others might wish to think in pounds of CO2]. But from what I observe,
>everyone using these same techniques in the workplace would save considerably more.

Your savings still amount to a small amount of power overall, not the
18KWh you state above.  Your solar system appears to cover about 50%
of your needs, which is a very good figure from my experience.

>> >
>> >A substantial tax on grid power might also lead to usage reductions. Here in
>> >the US half the pump price of gasoline goes to tax monies which typically by
>> >law can only be used for transportation. If something similar were done with
>> >an electricity tax the revenue could stimulate all forms of energy research.
>> 
>> An energy research tax, to be used in pollution remediation for
>> instance, is an excellent idea, but cannot be uni-laterally
>> implemented - it has an instant negative effect on the local economy.
>
>Yes, but the same could have been said for gasoline taxes, and nonetheless
>they have been successfully implemented.

Good point.  I'm not saying it is impossible, just difficult to
implement.

>> >There is also the self-sufficiency factor; where I live a major hurricane or
>> >ice storm will will pass through every few years and typically cut grid power
>> >for 1-2 weeks. For me, having power during those times more than makes up for
>> >several years of PV system maintenance.
>> 
>> This is a good reason to have a backup diesel or petrol generator, but
>> why would you spend all that money trickle charge systems and
>> batteries?
>
>Just one KWH marine battery, allows adequate lights plus running the TV or
>computer up to five hours overnight. 

That is all I used on my yacht for those applications.  But what about
the other 11kWh your house consumes?

>Most loads (computer, water pumping,
>washing machine) can be shifted to run directly off the PV panels when the sun
>is shining. 

What if it isn't shining?

>The portable generator is noisy and hard on the back, and now no
>longer needed since the battery-inverter system could be charged from the car
>or tractor as a last resort. 

What about heating and cooking?  Boiling hot water, and making toast?
These are the applications which consume 90% of your power, and you
haven't even mentioned them.

>Interesting to consider that electric vehicles
>might supply much of the home's power, with appropriate docking. Rather than
>charge them at home, charge them in the parking lot at work (using
>cogeneration or PV) and bring the power back home every night. A future
>employment perk?

So somebody else pays for your power?  Cool.  But I'm not holding my
breath on the prospect.


...Greig

Greig Ebeling wrote:
> 
> On 07 Jun 2000 10:35:53 EDT, "D.A.Kopf" <dak@dakx.com> wrote:
> 
> >Greig Ebeling wrote:
> >>
> >> On 06 Jun 2000 10:20:06 EDT, "D.A.Kopf" <dak@dakx.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >[New thread since References line becoming too long for my news mailer]
> >> >
> >> >Murray Love wrote in message I0%_4.7705$F9.266005@news1.gvcl1.bc.home.com...
> >> ><snip>
> >> >>
> >> >> Thoughtful post, ant.  Thank you for being civil.  As an aside, I don't see
> >> >> the attraction of decentralized power.  I like my huge utility; it never
> >> >> goes out on me, it's cheap, and if there's a problem I know who's
> >> >> responsible.  This is a genuine question:  what is the attraction of
> >> >> decentralization?
> >> >
> >> >Possibly it's too cheap, in that people can use unnecessary electricity
> >> >without realizing the hidden consequences. Particularly in the workplace when
> >> >they don't see the electric bill. I've known people using electric heaters
> >> >under their desk because the air conditioning was set too cold! You'd probably
> >> >reduce consumption if you had to do your own maintenance, or if your local
> >> >plant made less noise and smelly emissions whenever you switched off a load.
> >> >In my experience most of this reduction is effortless - turning off lights,
> >> >replacing most-used lights with fluorescents, using battery-powered or wind-up
> >> >clocks, plugging wall warts and always-on appliances into switchable outlets, > >etc.
> >>
> >> These actions may be effortless, but they do almost nothing to reduce
> >> electricity load.
> >
> >I average 12KWH a day, down from about 30 KWH pre-PV system.
> 
> That is a handy saving!
> 
> >Computer monitor
> >and lights are now turned off when not in use.Replacing 3 100 watt bulbs with
> >15 watt fluorescents saved 1 KWH/day (and gives better light). Switchable
> >outlets on the TV, computer, microwave, and coffemaker another 0.5 KWH/day. As
> >you say, not noticeable on the power meters at the nuke plant [I like to think
> >of it as around 70 gallons a day less water vaporized up the cooling tower,
> >others might wish to think in pounds of CO2]. But from what I observe,

> >everyone using these same techniques in the workplace would save considerably more.
> 
> Your savings still amount to a small amount of power overall, not the
> 18KWh you state above.  Your solar system appears to cover about 50%
> of your needs, which is a very good figure from my experience.

Most of the 30-to-12 KWH reduction was the result of becoming more aware of
electricity usage after experience with the PV system. Lights off when a room
is unoccupied, fill dishwasher before running, no more 24x7 factoring or
seti@home analysis. 
> 
> >> >There is also the self-sufficiency factor; where I live a major hurricane or
> >> >ice storm will will pass through every few years and typically cut grid power
> >> >for 1-2 weeks. For me, having power during those times more than makes up for
> >> >several years of PV system maintenance.
> >>
> >> This is a good reason to have a backup diesel or petrol generator, but
> >> why would you spend all that money trickle charge systems and
> >> batteries?
> >
> >Just one KWH marine battery, allows adequate lights plus running the TV or
> >computer up to five hours overnight.
> 
> That is all I used on my yacht for those applications.  But what about
> the other 11kWh your house consumes?

The PV system is a backup, sorry if I gave the impression I use it routinely.
The grid connection costs $7/month and it would be silly not to use its $0.08
kilowatt-hours when available. The panels are hinged under the eaves and spend
most of the time vertical and out of the elements. Two 75 watt panels are
exposed to keep the battery charged and provide continuous power for an old
stripped-down 20 watt Mac that monitors the insolation and battery charging
curves (the microphone input is connected to a Trace C-40 battery charger
metering jack and decodes the TTL waveform to get once-per-second voltage and
current data). If all panels are exposed I can expect about 5 KWH most days,
that's enough to be comfortable during power outages.

> 
> >Most loads (computer, water pumping,
> >washing machine) can be shifted to run directly off the PV panels when the sun
> >is shining.
> 
> What if it isn't shining?

Most loads are optional, and I have a 500 liter storage tank for the well water.

> 
> >The portable generator is noisy and hard on the back, and now no
> >longer needed since the battery-inverter system could be charged from the car
> >or tractor as a last resort.
> 
> What about heating and cooking?  Boiling hot water, and making toast?
> These are the applications which consume 90% of your power, and you
> haven't even mentioned them.

Morso wood stove for heating. Prefer wood heat, in my opinion it is the most
healthful and comfortable adjunct to cold winter nights. Still working through
the white oak courtesy of hurricane Fran. Use rather small amounts of propane
for cooking and hot water. Most summertime cooking involves the microwave,
during winter there is of course always the wood stove. It's fairly easy to
adjust these usages to match available energy.