🚀 go-pugleaf

On Jun 28, 10:38 am, samsara0 <samsa...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> "At the dawn of the 20th Century approximately one
> half of the world's population identified itself as
> either Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Hindu or Buddhist,
> and 100 years of secularism, and technological
> advancement, and scientific progress later, that
> number is now two thirds>
>
> So for those of you who enjoy beginning coffee shop
> conversations with "The Death of God"  .. it's time
> to change the subject!"
>
>        - Dr Reza Aslan,
>          Assistant Professor of Islamic and Middle East Studies
>          "Beyond Fundamentalism: Confronting Religious Extremism
>           in a Globalized Age"

Truth is not a popularity contest.
We all have to decide as individuals - Do I want to believe:
(1) What everyone else believes. (Fit in and belong)
OR
(2) Do I want the truth.

Dr Reza Aslan has merely pointed out that people prefer to move in
herds.
Not really much of a revelation.

Of course we are all human - we all feel the pull of the need to fit
in and belong -
but some of us need and love truth even more.

Mark.

samsara0 wrote:
> 
> "At the dawn of the 20th Century approximately one
> half of the world's population identified itself as
> either Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Hindu or Buddhist,
> and 100 years of secularism, and technological
> advancement, and scientific progress later, that
> number is now two thirds>
> 
> So for those of you who enjoy beginning coffee shop
> conversations with "The Death of God"  .. it's time
> to change the subject!"
> 
>       - Dr Reza Aslan,
>         Assistant Professor of Islamic and Middle East Studies
>         "Beyond Fundamentalism: Confronting Religious Extremism
>          in a Globalized Age"
> 


As I have told the atheists for over a year now.. they are
in permanent, long-term decline..  after the Atheist holocausts,
the Union of Savage Slaughter and Repression, Mao's Cultural
Devolution and Great Leap Backward, Pol Pot's Atheist Genocide..
militant atheism is discredited!

-- 

alt.atheism FAQ:

http://altatheismfaq.blogspot.com/


http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.atheism/msg/7c0978c14fd4ed37?hl=en&dmode=source




  "Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism."
      -Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

   "We must combat religion"
       -Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

  "Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism."
      - Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

  �Down with religion and long live atheism;
   the dissemination of atheist views is our chief task!�
      - Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:8290?context=latest

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:8295?context=latest

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:6348?context=latest

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17478?context=latest


  "How can you make a revolution without firing squads?"
      - Lenin

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17475?context=latest

   http://www.c96trading.com/Nagant_NKVD_300h.jpg

 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01001/Tsar-family_1001874c.jpg

On Jun 28, 10:24 am, fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> samsara0 wrote:
>

If you want to be scientific, the idea that there is a god needs
defending, yes.
How do we know there is a god?
Has anybody seen god, or spoken to god (except in their imagination),
or heard god (again except in their imaginations) and how do we know
that what people call speaking or listening to god, isn't just talking
to our own selves, and the answers come from within ourselves?

They do say "the answers lie within", and people get inspiration often
from looking within.

You are a religious nut, no better than the ignorant fanatic muslims
who justify jihad against the infidels.

In your case it is "blind faith" as opposed to any sort of cause and
effect. People with your mentality are a danger to the world.

Also you are a spammer posting to so many newsgroups.

And a moron because you reported me for bad language but didn't take
the time to read what the dickhead piece of trash said about me.

Shame, shame, shame!

carole
www.conspiracee.com

On Jun 28, 10:50 am, carole <hubbca2...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> On Jun 28, 10:24 am, fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>


When the world is so stuffed up and evil and hardship for the poor are
so prevalent, what makes you think there is a god, and what makes any
god worthy of worship?

We don't need a god, we need end to wars, end to coverup of inventions
and cures, a whole heap of things, but a god, no we do not need it.

Religion is more a problem than a cure.

carole
www.conspiracee.com

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 10:38:48 +1000, samsara0 wrote:


> Does God Actually Need Defending? 


[ snip the defense ]

Well, Bucko, it looks like you have answered your own question.



  Regards,

   Josef


If "everybody knows" such-and-such then it ain't so, by at least ten
thousand to one.

	-- Robert Heinlein

Richo still can't explain how a Baptist can be an athist:     B^D
> On Jun 28, 10:38 am, samsara0 <samsa...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
 >>
>> "At the dawn of the 20th Century approximately one
>> half of the world's population identified itself as
>> either Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Hindu or Buddhist,
>> and 100 years of secularism, and technological
>> advancement, and scientific progress later, that
>> number is now two thirds>
>>
>> So for those of you who enjoy beginning coffee shop
>> conversations with "The Death of God"  .. it's time
>> to change the subject!"
>>
>>        - Dr Reza Aslan,
>>          Assistant Professor of Islamic and Middle East Studies
>>          "Beyond Fundamentalism: Confronting Religious Extremism
>>           in a Globalized Age"

As I have told the atheists for over a year now.. they are
in permanent, long-term decline..  after the Atheist holocausts,
the Union of Savage Slaughter and Repression, Mao's Cultural
Devolution and Great Leap Backward, Pol Pot's Atheist Genocide..
militant atheism is discredited!


richo misrepresents Dr Aslans work, it shows that
DIVERSITY of faith is growing, and the rigid, truth-denying
CONFORMITY of atheist states is consigned to the dustbin
of history.

Even among the "non-religious" sector, atheism is a tiny
fraction (4%)   i.e. 96% of the NON-RELIGIOUS reject athesim!

B^D

> Truth is not a popularity contest.

You HAVE to say that, because atheism is in terminal decline,
deeply distrusted and despised..  EVEN 96% of the NON-RELIGIOUS,
explicitly reject being called ATHEIST!!    B^D

You have all the "brand recognition" of paedophiles and pantie sniffers!

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAA

Oh, and NEWSFLASH: just because the Nazis are UNPOPULAR does
not mean they have ANY TRUTH!    B^D

Same with atheism.

Name ONE THING that atheism espouses which can be PROVEN
CONCLUSIVELY to be true.

It will be difficult because I have you on record claiming
that the ONLY thing atheism espouses is 'non belief in God/s'

Anything else would be beliefs you have to PROVE.. and you
nutjobs couldn't prove it's daytime if the sun was shining!   B^D


> We all have to decide as individuals - Do I want to believe:

No one cares about your BELIEFS.. you can no more PROVE
THEM than the theists can!

But I love the way you deal with FACTS.. the REALITY
documented above..   the FAILURE of atheism in the AGE
OF REASON..  by drifting off into metaphysical SPECULATIONS;  B^D

> (1) What everyone else believes. 

Based on the evidence available.

EVERY ATHEIST STATE HAS BEEN A TOTALITARIAN TYRANNY.

The atheist experiment/s FAILED

The atheist hypothesis is disproven

The Theist hypothesis, which you have never even
understood, continues to provide positive benefits..
thus, rational humans act upon it.

It's called RATIONAL INQUIRY, the SCIENTIFIC METHOD,
REASON and LOGIC..  all concepts which flourish
in the free open democratic secular states which
Majority Religious populations have built, and are
extinguished in every dismal atheist state FAILURE!


The facts are there.. you avoid them and pretend it's
a POPULARITY contest between beliefs!!!

Tha's becasue ALL you can debate IS beliefs.. it's the only
area where proof is impossible, so you can convince yourself
you are never wrong!   You cling to your delusion as tightly
as the most frightened helfire and brimstone FUNDIE..

you sad little man...

 > (Fit in and belong)

ENFORCED with the UTMOST BRUTALITY in EVERY ATHEIST STATE.

 > OR

Contrast it with the DIVERSITY of pluralist Majority
Religious societies like the USA, Australia, Europe
where Hindu's, Muslims, Christians, Jews, live together
in peace and harmony..

They don't all have to BELIEVE the same thing..  that is
an attribute of EVERY ATHEIST STATE!!

B^[

I am an agnostic, you are a militant atheist nutter,
Obama is a theist, Gillard is a non-practising Baptist...

ALL DIFFERENT..

WE don't have to have the SAME BELIEFS in order to fit
in and belong (like people did in atheist TYRANNIES)
because we are part of an EVOLVED MAJORITY RELIGIOUS
society which has built a FREE OPEN DEMOCRATIC TOLERANT
PLURALIST SECULAR STATE...

And Swampy.. if you are still reading.. THAT is just one of
the reasons why this topic is FUNDAMENTALLY MORE IMPORTANT
than who is leader of a political party at any given moment.

B^)

> (2) Do I want the truth.

No you seek only to ignore and pervert it:

You sure as shit can't FACE it!   B^D

> Dr Reza Aslan has merely pointed out that people prefer to move in
> herds.

If he was describing alt.atheism that would be accurate.

As I have just demonstrated, Herd mentality is more an attribute
of EVERY ATHEIST REGIME IN HISTORY, than the free open democratic
secular states built bu MAJORITY RELIGIOUS societies..


Atheist Freethinkers at work;       B^D

http://time-az.com/images/2009/08/20090806RedGuardsLow.JPG

> Not really much of a revelation.

Sure.. everyone knows how DISMAL, DULL, CONFORMIST AND SOUL DESTROYING
every atheist regime in history has been.

That's why you, and every atheist hypocrite CHOOSE to live
in a majority religious society, you prefer the progress
prosperity, and freedom to eating grass to fend off starvation in
an atheist paradise like North Korea.

> Of course we are all human - we all feel the pull of the need to fit
> in and belong -

I seem to disprove your sheepish nature..  I'm an agnostic.

We act on reason, and don't believe in atheism because
history shows it DOESN'T WORK!

We get on well with theists, and all the non-religious,
none of whom want anything to do with atheists because of
HISTORICAL EVIDENCE like this:

# http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism#Wolak2004
#
# "State atheism is the official promotion of atheism
# by a government, typically by active suppression of
# religious freedom and practice."
#     - "Protest for Religious Rights in the USSR:
#       Characteristics and Consequences,
#        David Kowalewski,
#        Russian Review, Vol. 39, No. 4 (Oct., 1980), pp. 426-441,
#
#
# "An atheist, Pol Pot suppressed Cambodia�s Buddhist religion:
# monks were defrocked; temples and artifacts, including statues of
# Buddha, were destroyed; and people praying or expressing
# other religious sentiments were often killed.
# ...the government emptied the cities through mass evacuations
# and sent people to the countryside. Cambodians were overworked
# and underfed on collective farms, often succumbing to disease or
# starvation as a result. Spouses were separated and family meals
# prohibited in order to steer loyalties toward the state
# instead of the family.
#
# About 1.7 million Cambodians, or about 20 percent of the population,
# were worked, starved, or beaten to death under Pol Pot�s regime."
#      -   http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761579038/pol_pot.html
#
# The Cambodian Genocide:
http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/392millones.jpg

#
# "The country's 40,000 to 60,000 Buddhist monks,
# regarded by the regime as social parasites,
# were defrocked and forced into labor brigades.
# Many monks were executed; temples and pagodas were
# destroyed or turned into storehouses or jails.
# Images of the Buddha were defaced and dumped into
# rivers and lakes. People who were discovered praying
# or expressing religious sentiments in other ways
# were often killed.
#
# The Christian and Muslim communities were among the most
# persecuted, as well. The Roman Catholic cathedral of
# Phnom Penh was completely razed.
#
# The Khmer Rouge forced Muslims to eat pork, which they
# regard as an abomination. Many of those who refused were killed.
# Christian clergy and Muslim imams were executed."
#        -  http://countrystudies.us/cambodia/29.htm
#
# "Forty-eight percent of Cambodia's Christians were killed
# because of their religion."
#
http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/44camboyano.jpg
#
#
# "the state established atheism as the only scientific truth."
#     - Daniel Peris,
#     "Storming the Heavens: The Soviet League of the Militant Godless"
#      Cornell University Press 1998 ISBN 9780801434853
#
#
# "State atheism has been mostly implemented in communist
# countries, such as the former Soviet Union,[1] China,
# Communist Albania, Communist Afghanistan, North Korea,
# Communist Mongolia and Poland under communist rule also
# promoted state atheism and suppressed religion.
#     - Forced out: the fate of Polish Jewry in Communist Poland.
#       Wolak, Arthur J.    p 104
#
# In these nations, the governments viewed atheism as an
# intrinsic part of communist ideology.


> but some of us need and love truth even more.


B^D  You RUN AWAY FROM TRUTH, you lying hypocrite:

# From: fasgnadh <fasgnadh@yahoo.com.au>
# Newsgroups: aus.politics,alt.religion,alt.atheism,
# alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.islam,alt.agnosticism
# Subject: Re: Atheists invent strawmen because they can't debate
#              the facts
#    was Re: "Business welcomes Gillard ascension"
#            - Minerals Council suspends ad campaign!
# Message-ID: <%mCVn.649$vD2.250@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
# Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 06:39:55 GMT
#
# Swampfox wrote:
# > fasgnadh wrote:
# >> Swampfox wrote:
# >>> fasgnadh wrote:
# >>>> Swampfox should debate me, not richo's strawman  bad form:
#  >>>
# >>> There's no debate Fas, I just asked a simple question.
# >> And I answered it, fulsomely
# >>
# >>> I agree that I offered an opinion to Richo which
# >>> was based on what I understand your attitude to be
# >>> and did make a rather rash assumption,
#  >>
# >> I'm still waiting for richo, or anyone to show a quote
# >> stating, as he has stated, that "a non practising Baptist"
# >> or a non-believer, or someone who is not religious,
# >> "is, (ipso facto) a murderous tyrant"
#
# Still waiting for richo to provide evidence for any of his claims:
#
# 1.  that being a "non-practising Baptist makes someone a
#      'murderous tyrant'
#
# 2. that 'non-religious' means 'atheist'
#     (Most non-religious are NOT atheist)
#
# 3. his absurd claim that his views are shared by me:
#
#
# @ Richo wrote:
# @ > On Jun 24, 6:34 pm, "Swampfox" <noi...@whocares.com> wrote:
# @ >> fasgnadh wrote:
# @ >>
# @ >> <snip>
# @ >> Julia Gillard is a non-practising Baptist who describes
# @ >> herself as not religious, what do you think about that?
# @ >
# @ > this means she is a murderous tyrant.

  Why does being a "non_practising Baptist", (or for that matter,
  'non-religious') make someone a murderous tyrant.

  Just because EVERY ATHEIST leader of EVERY ATHEIST STATE has been,
  does not mean all of the Baptists, agnostics, or all of the other
  non-religious are!   B^D

# @ > (or words to that effect -

So richo was LYING!  We knew that when we saw his lips move!

# @ > look it up if you like to find the *exact* words.)

We have RICHO's exact words.. no one else is on record spouting that
bullshit, (although he has gullible nitwits like Hampster and BJ
swallowing whatever he says   they never need proof for their
prejudices!)  B^D


# @ > Julia didnt swear on the Bible - God was not
# @ > mentioned - this means
# @ > the death camps and the Gulags cannot be far away.

Richo's  views are clearly crazy, but even crazier is Hunter and BJ
who read richo saying that, and without any proof whatsoever, think
that his nutty, unproven slurs on Australia's first Female Prime
Minister are shared by others  (apart from themselves, apparently  B^)

# @ > Be very afraid everyone - a godless Prime Minister in Australia!

richo hasn't shown that anyone is Godless, just that he is hysterical.

BTW, we have had non-religious PMs before, Keating for one,
but he was still head of a secular state built and sustained by a
tolerant democratic Majority Religious society, and not head of an
atheist state.

Thank God!  B^D  EVERY atheist state has been a totalitarian tyranny!!!

Not even atheist hypocrites such as richo BJ and Hampster,
choose to live in one!   B^]


# @ > Mark. (Richo)
#
#
# >> I see he hasn't posted one, and, unlike you, I don't expect him
# >> to apologise...
#
# All of richo's slander and abuse remain his, discredited
# and abandoned;
#
#      "When a simpleton abused him, Buddha listened to him in silence,
#      but when the man had finished asked him,
#      "Son, if a man declined to accept a present offered to him,
#      to whom would it belong?"
#      The man answered "To him who offered it."
#      "My son," Buddha said, "I decline to accept your abuse.
#       Keep it for yourself."
#
#       - Will Durant The Story of Civilization.



> Mark.

Runs as fast from TRUTH, facts and reason as Chicken Bukakke!


Runaway atheists!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0kPQiQufpE





-- 

alt.atheism FAQ:

http://altatheismfaq.blogspot.com/


http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.atheism/msg/7c0978c14fd4ed37?hl=en&dmode=source




  "Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism."
      -Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

   "We must combat religion"
       -Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

  "Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism."
      - Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

  �Down with religion and long live atheism;
   the dissemination of atheist views is our chief task!�
      - Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:8290?context=latest

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:8295?context=latest

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:6348?context=latest

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17478?context=latest


  "How can you make a revolution without firing squads?"
      - Lenin

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17475?context=latest

   http://www.c96trading.com/Nagant_NKVD_300h.jpg

 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01001/Tsar-family_1001874c.jpg

carole wrote:
> fasgnadh wrote:
>> samsara0 wrote:
>>>
>>> "At the dawn of the 20th Century approximately one
>>> half of the world's population identified itself as
>>> either Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Hindu or Buddhist,
>>> and 100 years of secularism, and technological
>>> advancement, and scientific progress later, that
>>> number is now two thirds>
>>>
>>> So for those of you who enjoy beginning coffee shop
>>> conversations with "The Death of God"  .. it's time
>>> to change the subject!"
>>>
>>>       - Dr Reza Aslan,
>>>         Assistant Professor of Islamic and Middle East Studies
>>>         "Beyond Fundamentalism: Confronting Religious Extremism
>>>          in a Globalized Age"
>>>
>> 
>> 
>> As I have told the atheists for over a year now.. they are
>> in permanent, long-term decline..  after the Atheist holocausts,
>> the Union of Savage Slaughter and Repression, Mao's Cultural
>> Devolution and Great Leap Backward, Pol Pot's Atheist Genocide..
>> militant atheism is discredited!
> 
> If you want to be scientific, the idea that there is a god needs
> defending, yes.


No.  you clearly are not a scientist.

Science does not DEFEND ideas.  That is profoundly UN scientific.

Science posits a hypothesis and then TESTS it, the attempt
is to FALSIFY it, not to DEFEND your idea.

Any concept which is NOT CAPABLE of falsification is
BEYOND THE SCOPE OF SCIENCE.   Do you understand?

Thus, only scientific illiterates demand SCIENTIFIC proof
of God, or any other metaphysical concept.

If that idiocy was extended to other intellectual inquiry,

ALL OF METAPHYSICS would cease.

I doubt you even understand what that means.

Don't take my word for it, you tell us
which branch of science is your Nobel prize for,
and then...

Lets ask some REAL scientists;


"Do you think that God can intervene in the universe as he wants
or is God to bound by the laws of science?"

"Your question of whether God is bound by the laws
of science is a bit like the question 'can God make a stone
that is so heavy that he can not lift it'.  I don't think it
is very useful to speculate on what God might or might not
be able to do. Rather we should examine what he actually does
with the universe we live in. All our observations suggest
that it operates according to defined laws. These laws may
have been made by God, but it seems he does not intervene in
the Universe to break the laws, at least not once he had set
the universe going."  -  Prof Stephen Hawking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O9cYTZXekA&feature=related


  ---------
The Greatness of God is something we cannot understand even though we
are aware of it

-  Rene Descarte 1596-1650 mathematician and philosopher

Ren� Descartes one of the key thinkers of the Scientific Revolution in 
the Western World. honoured by having the Cartesian coordinate system 
used in plane geometry and algebra named after him. He did important 
work on invariants and geometry. His Meditations on First Philosophy 
partially concerns theology and he was devoted to reconciling his ideas 
with the dogmas of Catholic Faith to which he was loyal.


I see everywhere the inevitable expression of the infinite in the world

-  Louis Pasteur 1822-95

As a blind man has no idea of colours, so have we no idea of the manner
by which the All-Wise God perceives and understands all things.

-  Sir Isaac Newton  1642-1727

The scientific picture of the real world around me is very
deficient...Science cannot tell us why music delights us, of why and how
an old song can move us to tears.... Science is reticent too when it is
a question of the great Unity... of which we all somehow form a part, to
which we belong. The most popular name for it in our time is God.

-  Erwin Schroedinger 1933 Nobel prize in Physics
      "My view of the World" 1918

There can never be any real opposition between religion and science.
Every serious and reflective person realizes, I think, that the
religious elements in his nature must be recognized and cultivated if
all the powers of the human soul are to act together in perfect balance
and harmony.

-  Max Planck winner of the 1918 Nobel prize in Physics
      "Where is Science Going" 1918

      "Something unknown is doing we don't know what"
          -Sir Arthur Eddington

Religion and science are the two wings upon which man's intelligence can
soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not
possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the
wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of
superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone
he would make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of
materialism.

- 'Abdu'l - Baha "Paris Talks" 1911

Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): "A common sense interpretation of
the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as
well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces
worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the
facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost
beyond question." (2)

George Ellis (British astrophysicist): "Amazing fine tuning occurs in
the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the
complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use
the word 'miraculous' without taking a stand as to the ontological
status of the word." (3)

Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy): "I find it
quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be
some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the
explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something
instead of nothing." (6)

John O'Keefe (astronomer at NASA): "We are, by astronomical standards,
a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the
Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could
never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances
indicate the universe was created for man to live in." (7)

George Greenstein (astronomer): "As we survey all the evidence, the
thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather,
Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without
intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence
of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially
crafted the cosmos for our benefit?" (8)

Arthur Eddington (astrophysicist): "The idea of a universal mind or
Logos would be, I think, a fairly plausible inference from the present
state of scientific theory." (9)

Arno Penzias (Nobel prize in physics): "Astronomy leads us to a unique
event, a universe which was created out of nothing, one with the very
delicate balance needed to provide exactly the conditions required to
permit life, and one which has an underlying (one might say
'supernatural') plan." (10)

Roger Penrose (mathematician and author): "I would say the universe
has a purpose. It's not there just somehow by chance." (11)

Tony Rothman (physicist): "When confronted with the order and beauty
of the universe and the strange coincidences of nature, it's very
tempting to take the leap of faith from science into religion. I am
sure many physicists want to. I only wish they would admit it." (12)

Vera Kistiakowsky (MIT physicist): "The exquisite order displayed by
our scientific understanding of the physical world calls for the
divine." (13)

Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has
lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad
dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to
conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he
is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for
centuries." (14)

Stephen Hawking (British astrophysicist): "Then we shall� be able to
take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and
the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the
ultimate triumph of human reason - for then we would know the mind of
God." (15)

Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): "When I began my
career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced
atheist. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be
writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-
Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are
straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand
them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable
logic of my own special branch of physics." (16) Note: Tipler since
has actually converted to Christianity, hence his latest book, The
Physics Of Christianity.

Alexander Polyakov (Soviet mathematician): "We know that nature is
described by the best of all possible mathematics because God created
it."(17)

Ed Harrison (cosmologist): "Here is the cosmological proof of the
existence of God � the design argument of Paley � updated and
refurbished. The fine tuning of the universe provides prima facie
evidence of deistic design. Take your choice: blind chance that
requires multitudes of universes or design that requires only one....
Many scientists, when they admit their views, incline toward the
teleological or design argument." (18)

Edward Milne (British cosmologist): "As to the cause of the Universe,
in context of expansion, that is left for the reader to insert, but
our picture is incomplete without Him [God]." (19)

Barry Parker (cosmologist): "Who created these laws? There is no
question but that a God will always be needed." (20)

Drs. Zehavi, and Dekel (cosmologists): "This type of universe,
however, seems to require a degree of fine tuning of the initial
conditions that is in apparent conflict with 'common wisdom'." (21)

Arthur L. Schawlow (Professor of Physics at Stanford University, 1981
Nobel Prize in physics): "It seems to me that when confronted with the
marvels of life and the universe, one must ask why and not just how.
The only possible answers are religious. . . . I find a need for God
in the universe and in my own life." (22)

Henry "Fritz" Schaefer (Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry and
director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the
University of Georgia): "The significance and joy in my science comes
in those occasional moments of discovering something new and saying to
myself, 'So that's how God did it.' My goal is to understand a little
corner of God's plan." (23)



  Wernher von Braun (Pioneer rocket engineer) "I find it as difficult to
  understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a
  superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to
  comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science." (24)

  Carl Woese (microbiologist from the University of Illinois) "Life in
  Universe - rare or unique? I walk both sides of that street. One day I
  can say that given the 100 billion stars in our galaxy and the 100
  billion or more galaxies, there have to be some planets that formed
  and evolved in ways very, very like the Earth has, and so would
  contain microbial life at least. There are other days when I say that
  the anthropic principal, which makes this universe a special one out
  of an uncountably large number of universes, may not apply only to
  that aspect of nature we define in the realm of physics, but may
  extend to chemistry and biology. In that case life on Earth could be
  entirely unique." (25)


  "The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a
  little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the
  ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that
  someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It
  does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the
  child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books - a
  mysterious order which it does not comprehend, but only dimly
  suspects." - Albert Einstein

  "The statistical probability that organic structures and the most
  precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be
  generated by accident, is zero."- Ilya Prigogine (Chemist-Physicist)
  Recipient of two Nobel Prizes in chemistry
  I. Prigogine, N. Gregair, A. Babbyabtz, Physics Today 25, pp. 23-28

  "The really amazing thing is not that life on Earth is balanced on a
  knife-edge, but that the entire universe is balanced on a knife-edge,
  and would be total chaos if any of the natural 'constants' were off
  even slightly. You see," Davies adds, "even if you dismiss man as a
  chance happening, the fact remains that the universe seems
  unreasonably suited to the existence of life -- almost contrived --
  you might say a 'put-up job'."- Dr. Paul Davies
  (noted author and Professor of Theoretical Physics at Adelaide
  University)


Just a few believers who exceeded the intellectual output of this
ignorant atheist fuckwit and his cronies in alt.atheism;

Sir Francis Bacon - established the scientific method of inquiry based 
on experimentation and inductive reasoning.

Nicolaus Copernicus Catholic canon who introduced a heliocentric world view.

William Turner the "father of English botany"

John Napier Scottish mathematician known for inventing logarithms, 
Napier's bones, and being the popularizer of the use of decimals.

Johannes Kepler His model of the cosmos based on nesting Platonic solids 
was explicitly driven by religious ideas; his later and most famous 
scientific contribution, the Kepler's laws of planetary motion, was 
based on empirical data that he obtained from Tycho Brahe's meticulous 
astronomical observations,

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us
with senses, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use
and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can obtain by
them. He would not require us to deny sense and reason in physical
matters which are set before our eyes and minds by direct experience or
necessary demonstrations.

    - Galileo Galilei 1615.

..science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with
the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling,
however, springs from the sphere of Religion... science without religion
is lame, religion without science is blind.

- Albert Einstein "Ideas and Opinions" 1954

The glory and greatness of the Almighty God are marvellously discerned
in all His works and divinely read in the open book of heaven

- Galileo Galilei 1564-1642

Blaise Pascal well-known for Pascal's law (physics), Pascal's theorem 
(math), and Pascal's Wager (theology).

Nicolas Steno  a pioneer in both anatomy and geology

Robert Boyle Scientist and theologian who argued that the study of 
science could improve glorification of God.

John Wallis As a mathematician he wrote Arithmetica Infinitorumis, 
introduced the term Continued fraction, worked on cryptography, helped 
develop calculus, and is further known for the Wallis product.


Gottfried Leibniz A polymath who worked on determinants, a calculating 
machine

Isaac Newton (He is regarded as one of the greatest scientists and 
mathematicians in history.

Thomas Bayes  Bayes' theorem. Fellow of the Royal Society

Firmin Abauzit A physicist and theologian.

Carolus Linnaeus father of modern taxonomy, contributions to ecology.

Leonhard Euler  mathematician and physicist,

Maria Gaetana Agnesi  mathematician

Isaac Milner Lucasian Professor of Mathematics
Michael Faraday

Charles Babbage

Gregor Mendel  "father of modern genetics"

Asa Gray - Gray's Manual remains a pivotal work in botany.

Louis Pasteur Inventor of the pasteurization method, a french chemist 
and microbiologist. He also solved the mysteries of rabies, anthrax, 
chicken cholera, and silkworm diseases, and contributed to the 
development of the first vaccines.


Lord Kelvin Thermodynamics. winner of the Copley Medal and the Royal Medal,

Pierre Duhem Thermodynamic potentials

Dmitri Egorov mathematician - differential geometry

John Ambrose Flemingthe Right-hand rule and work on vacuum tubes, 
Fleming valve. the Hughes Medal.

Max Planck founder of Quantum mechanics (1918 Nobel Prize in Physics

Edward Arthur Milne astrophysicist and mathematician proposed the Milne 
model and had a Moon crater named for him.  Gold Medal of the Royal 
Astronomical Society,

Arthur Compton  Nobel Prize in Physics.

Georges Lema�tre  proposed the Big Bang theory.    Roman Catholic priest

Sir Robert Boyd  pioneer in British space science

  von Weizs�cker nuclear physicist Bethe-Weizs�cker formula.

Charles Hard Townes 1964  Nobel Prize in Physics 1966  wrote The 
Convergence of Science and Religion.

Freeman Dyson  the Lorentz Medal, the Max Planck Medal, and the Lewis 
Thomas Prize.

John T. Houghtonco-chair of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate 
Change  gold medal from the Royal Astronomical Society.

Micha? Heller mathematical physicist relativistic physics and 
Noncommutative geometry.

Eric PriestSolar Magnetohydrodynamics , won the George Ellery Hale Prize

Francis Collins director of the US National Human Genome Research Institute.

John D. Barrow English cosmologist implications of the Anthropic principle.

Denis Alexander Director of the Faraday Institute and author of 
Rebuilding the Matrix - Science and Faith in the 21st Century.

Christopher IshamTheoretical physicist who developed HPO formalism.

Martin NowakEvolutionary biologist and mathematician best known for 
evolutionary dynamics.


And that's just a partial list of Western scientists who were believers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_scientists








-- 

alt.atheism FAQ:

http://altatheismfaq.blogspot.com/


http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.atheism/msg/7c0978c14fd4ed37?hl=en&dmode=source




  "Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism."
      -Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

   "We must combat religion"
       -Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

  "Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism."
      - Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

  �Down with religion and long live atheism;
   the dissemination of atheist views is our chief task!�
      - Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:8290?context=latest

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:8295?context=latest

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:6348?context=latest

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17478?context=latest


  "How can you make a revolution without firing squads?"
      - Lenin

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17475?context=latest

   http://www.c96trading.com/Nagant_NKVD_300h.jpg

 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01001/Tsar-family_1001874c.jpg

carole wrote:
> On Jun 28, 10:50 am, carole <hubbca2...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> 
> When the world is so stuffed up and evil and hardship for the poor are
> so prevalent, what makes you think there is a god, and what makes any
> god worthy of worship?
> 
> We don't need a god, we need end to wars, end to coverup of inventions
> and cures, a whole heap of things, but a god, no we do not need it.
> 
> Religion is more a problem than a cure.
> 
> carole
> www.conspiracee.com
> 


Oh look it's Seon's sister, talking to herself..

..best we don't interrupt, this is essential training
for atheists!

----

"I'm perfectly happy believing in science and God"  - Seon


"Yes Atheists have beliefs"  - Seon

Seon:  "Hey fasg I am still waiting for a. evidence God exists"

Seon:   "I am happy believing in God"

Seon: "I have had .. no evidence of God I'm afraid."

Seon: "as I said why believe in something despite the lack of evidence?"

Seon  "I find it hard to take anything you say seriously when you
          use troll tactics like name calling. Troll."



This is Seon, the Atheist convert, who can't keep his story straight,
claims he's happy believing in God, has no evidence for God, admits
he's irrational for believing in something he has no evidence for,
and wants someone else to provide evidence for HIS irrational (PRETEND)
beliefs..

That is Seon, in a nutshell..  where any atheist nut belongs!


"I didn't snip anything" - Seon

"I snip them"  - Seon, in the SAME sentence, unable to keep his lies 
straight.

_______________________

# From: "Seon Ferguson" <seongf@gmail.com>
# Newsgroups: alt.atheism
# Subject: Re: Religion is a lie
# Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 12:38:42 +1000
# Message-ID: <xLSdnev2YsbGbo_RnZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@westnet.com.au>
#
# My only regret is most people here have plonked me,
# if only I had realized that before making an arse of myself.






-- 

alt.atheism FAQ:

http://altatheismfaq.blogspot.com/


http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.atheism/msg/7c0978c14fd4ed37?hl=en&dmode=source




  "Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism."
      -Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

   "We must combat religion"
       -Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

  "Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism."
      - Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

  �Down with religion and long live atheism;
   the dissemination of atheist views is our chief task!�
      - Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:8290?context=latest

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:8295?context=latest

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:6348?context=latest

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17478?context=latest


  "How can you make a revolution without firing squads?"
      - Lenin

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17475?context=latest

   http://www.c96trading.com/Nagant_NKVD_300h.jpg

 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01001/Tsar-family_1001874c.jpg

Josef Balluch wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 10:38:48 +1000, samsara0 wrote:
> 
> 
>> Does God Actually Need Defending? 
> 
> 
> [ snip the defense ]

Lets test the hypothesis that it was a defence...

First, restore the EVIDENCE the irrational, unscientific
biased observer REMOVED...                        ;-)


# "At the dawn of the 20th Century approximately one
# half of the world's population identified itself as
# either Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Hindu or Buddhist,
# and 100 years of secularism, and technological
# advancement, and scientific progress later, that
# number is now two thirds>
#
# So for those of you who enjoy beginning coffee shop
# conversations with "The Death of God"  .. it's time
# to change the subject!"
#
#       - Dr Reza Aslan,
#         Assistant Professor of Islamic and Middle East Studies
#         "Beyond Fundamentalism: Confronting Religious Extremism
#          in a Globalized Age"


So an academic scholar of religion (you know, where people
STUDY the subject, rather than rant about their prejudices)
provides some FACTS about religion showing it has grown.

and concludes that those who declare the "Death of God",
a purported DECLINE in religion,  are wrong, based on the evidence.

That's not a defence of God.  It's a scholars work
dealing with the trends in religious belief..

The Poster, has added their subject header..  taking the
FACTS presented and asking a question..

"Does God Actually NEED defending" (my emphassis,
to which the answer clearly appears to be..       NO

B^)


> Well, Bucko, it looks like you have answered your own question.


I think everyone understands the answer,

and your contribution is?


>   Regards,
> 
>    Josef

Well, I guess you at least got your name right..

1 / 10



-- 

alt.atheism FAQ:

http://altatheismfaq.blogspot.com/


http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.atheism/msg/7c0978c14fd4ed37?hl=en&dmode=source




  "Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism."
      -Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

   "We must combat religion"
       -Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

  "Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism."
      - Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

  �Down with religion and long live atheism;
   the dissemination of atheist views is our chief task!�
      - Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:8290?context=latest

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:8295?context=latest

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:6348?context=latest

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17478?context=latest


  "How can you make a revolution without firing squads?"
      - Lenin

   http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17475?context=latest

   http://www.c96trading.com/Nagant_NKVD_300h.jpg

 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01001/Tsar-family_1001874c.jpg