🚀 go-pugleaf

Steve Leyland wrote:
> Jailed farmer Tony Martin is considering a High Court challenge to
> the Parole Board's decision not to grant him early release from
> prison. Martin's lawyer, James Saunders, says he will examine the
> possibility of seeking a judicial review of the board's decision,
> which was made on Thursday. Martin, jailed for shooting dead a
> teenage burglar who broke into his farmhouse with an accomplice, is
> said to be "extremely angry" at his failure to win early release.
>
> Martin, 58, of Emneth Hungate, Norfolk, is serving a five-year
> sentence for the manslaughter of 16-year-old Fred Barras.
> He is due to be freed in July after serving two-thirds of the
> sentence but was hoping to be released on parole this week.
>
> Mr Saunders stresses he has made no decision about seeking a judicial
> review but is going to consider the possibility.
> "I just think a man who has been disappointed in this way is entitled
> to see whether he has got any legal redress," said Mr Saunders.
>
> Martin has told friends that he believes that the parole board turned
> him down because of a probation officer's report.
> He says the report criticised him for not showing remorse and for
> "not living in the 21st Century".
>
> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
> hours later, if at all....
> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
> defending his home :-/
> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie teh
> Baseball Bat.
>
> FREE TONY MARTIN.

I don't remember all the details of the actual event as it happened, but
surely there is a difference between warning somebody off and killing them?

Over the hills and far away in england.chat, Leda came to play...

> Steve Leyland wrote:
>> Jailed farmer Tony Martin is considering a High Court challenge to
>> the Parole Board's decision not to grant him early release from
>> prison. Martin's lawyer, James Saunders, says he will examine the
>> possibility of seeking a judicial review of the board's decision,
>> which was made on Thursday. Martin, jailed for shooting dead a
>> teenage burglar who broke into his farmhouse with an accomplice, is
>> said to be "extremely angry" at his failure to win early release.
>>
>> Martin, 58, of Emneth Hungate, Norfolk, is serving a five-year
>> sentence for the manslaughter of 16-year-old Fred Barras.
>> He is due to be freed in July after serving two-thirds of the
>> sentence but was hoping to be released on parole this week.
>>
>> Mr Saunders stresses he has made no decision about seeking a judicial
>> review but is going to consider the possibility.
>> "I just think a man who has been disappointed in this way is entitled
>> to see whether he has got any legal redress," said Mr Saunders.
>>
>> Martin has told friends that he believes that the parole board turned
>> him down because of a probation officer's report.
>> He says the report criticised him for not showing remorse and for
>> "not living in the 21st Century".
>>
>> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
>> hours later, if at all....
>> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
>> defending his home :-/
>> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie teh
>> Baseball Bat.
>>
>> FREE TONY MARTIN.
> 
> I don't remember all the details of the actual event as it happened,
> but surely there is a difference between warning somebody off and
> killing them? 

Yes. The burglars were fleeing. While they shouldn't have been there in
the first place, the law only gives the right to *reasonable* force. So
why, as they burglars were running out of his house did he fire a shotgun
right into a place where it was obviously going to kill the person ? 

Just as the state should have no right to kill prisoners, the citizens of
the state should also have no right to issue their own swift justice by
killing people. We all know lynch mobs don't solve anything, and neither
does killing a fleeing criminal ? 

All Tony Martin had to do is fire the gun into the ceiling or something.
Or at worst, shoot at the legs. It's clear that, while it wasn't murder,
it was manslaughter, and he should be punished as such. 

Of course though, no one here has the full details of this case, or any
case for that matter. Unless you were actually in the courtroom, like the
jury or were in the members gallery every day, you do not have a full, as
unbiased as possible picture of the events in question, and therefore,
judgement should be reserved. We have to have faith in the jury system.
After all, what alternative is there ?  Free killing of whoever you feel
has "transgressed" your "laws" ? 

</soapbox>

-- 
The Critically Acclaimed Eddie Bernard  -====-  mhm34x11; TNPJRL: #666

"Since the best part of Eddie ran down his mother's leg, I think the only
person he'll ever be of any use to is himself." - Chris Raum

************** Now sitting pretty atop wd's killfile list. **************

- EC Post of the Month  >-------->  Winner: June & October 2002
- My Website  >------------------>  http://www.eddiebernard.myby.co.uk
- england.chat official site  >-->  http://www.england-chat.co.uk/

In message <b0gg7p$p3mds$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda 
<bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
>Steve Leyland wrote:
>> Jailed farmer Tony Martin is considering a High Court challenge to
>> the Parole Board's decision not to grant him early release from
>> prison. Martin's lawyer, James Saunders, says he will examine the
>> possibility of seeking a judicial review of the board's decision,
>> which was made on Thursday. Martin, jailed for shooting dead a
>> teenage burglar who broke into his farmhouse with an accomplice, is
>> said to be "extremely angry" at his failure to win early release.
>>
>> Martin, 58, of Emneth Hungate, Norfolk, is serving a five-year
>> sentence for the manslaughter of 16-year-old Fred Barras.
>> He is due to be freed in July after serving two-thirds of the
>> sentence but was hoping to be released on parole this week.
>>
>> Mr Saunders stresses he has made no decision about seeking a judicial
>> review but is going to consider the possibility.
>> "I just think a man who has been disappointed in this way is entitled
>> to see whether he has got any legal redress," said Mr Saunders.
>>
>> Martin has told friends that he believes that the parole board turned
>> him down because of a probation officer's report.
>> He says the report criticised him for not showing remorse and for
>> "not living in the 21st Century".
>>
>> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
>> hours later, if at all....
>> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
>> defending his home :-/
>> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie teh
>> Baseball Bat.
>>
>> FREE TONY MARTIN.
>
>I don't remember all the details of the actual event as it happened, but
>surely there is a difference between warning somebody off and killing them?

Yes, and shooting a sixteen-year old _in the back_ can't possibly be 
right under any circumstances. Not to mention the fact firearms laws. 
Not to mention the fact that Mr Martin refuses to accept he has done 
anything wrong. Not to mention the fact that a five year sentence is 
astonishingly light for what was, without a doubt, deliberate taking of 
a life. Not to mention the fact that he will only serve 2/3 of that 
sentence anyway.

Fair enough, from what I remember Mr Martin may well have had a 
personality disorder and possibly learning difficulties, (in which case 
prison may well not be the most appropriate place for him) but as he 
continues to believe that he has every right to kill fleeing intruders I 
would be inclined to say that he has got off extremely likely and may 
well in fact be dangerous. This isn't the US. Shooting at people is 
illegal, and killing them is illegal unless you can argue self-defence, 
which he can't - and even if he could, he still shouldn't have kept a 
gun by his bed _with the express purpose of shooting at people with it_.

-- 
sophie
mhm34x20

Eddie Bernard wrote:
> Over the hills and far away in england.chat, Leda came to play...
>
>> Steve Leyland wrote:
>>> Jailed farmer Tony Martin is considering a High Court challenge to
>>> the Parole Board's decision not to grant him early release from
>>> prison. Martin's lawyer, James Saunders, says he will examine the
>>> possibility of seeking a judicial review of the board's decision,
>>> which was made on Thursday. Martin, jailed for shooting dead a
>>> teenage burglar who broke into his farmhouse with an accomplice, is
>>> said to be "extremely angry" at his failure to win early release.
>>>
>>> Martin, 58, of Emneth Hungate, Norfolk, is serving a five-year
>>> sentence for the manslaughter of 16-year-old Fred Barras.
>>> He is due to be freed in July after serving two-thirds of the
>>> sentence but was hoping to be released on parole this week.
>>>
>>> Mr Saunders stresses he has made no decision about seeking a
>>> judicial review but is going to consider the possibility.
>>> "I just think a man who has been disappointed in this way is
>>> entitled to see whether he has got any legal redress," said Mr
>>> Saunders.
>>>
>>> Martin has told friends that he believes that the parole board
>>> turned him down because of a probation officer's report.
>>> He says the report criticised him for not showing remorse and for
>>> "not living in the 21st Century".
>>>
>>> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
>>> hours later, if at all....
>>> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
>>> defending his home :-/
>>> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie teh
>>> Baseball Bat.
>>>
>>> FREE TONY MARTIN.
>>
>> I don't remember all the details of the actual event as it happened,
>> but surely there is a difference between warning somebody off and
>> killing them?
>
> Yes. The burglars were fleeing. While they shouldn't have been there
> in the first place, the law only gives the right to *reasonable*
> force. So why, as they burglars were running out of his house did he
> fire a shotgun right into a place where it was obviously going to
> kill the person ?
>
> Just as the state should have no right to kill prisoners, the
> citizens of the state should also have no right to issue their own
> swift justice by killing people. We all know lynch mobs don't solve
> anything, and neither does killing a fleeing criminal ?
>
> All Tony Martin had to do is fire the gun into the ceiling or
> something. Or at worst, shoot at the legs. It's clear that, while it
> wasn't murder, it was manslaughter, and he should be punished as such.
>
> Of course though, no one here has the full details of this case, or
> any case for that matter. Unless you were actually in the courtroom,
> like the jury or were in the members gallery every day, you do not
> have a full, as unbiased as possible picture of the events in
> question, and therefore, judgement should be reserved. We have to
> have faith in the jury system. After all, what alternative is there ?
> Free killing of whoever you feel has "transgressed" your "laws" ?
>
> </soapbox>

PHILOSOPHY POTM!!!!!!!!!

sophie wrote:
> In message <b0gg7p$p3mds$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda
> <bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
>> Steve Leyland wrote:
>>> Jailed farmer Tony Martin is considering a High Court challenge to
>>> the Parole Board's decision not to grant him early release from
>>> prison. Martin's lawyer, James Saunders, says he will examine the
>>> possibility of seeking a judicial review of the board's decision,
>>> which was made on Thursday. Martin, jailed for shooting dead a
>>> teenage burglar who broke into his farmhouse with an accomplice, is
>>> said to be "extremely angry" at his failure to win early release.
>>>
>>> Martin, 58, of Emneth Hungate, Norfolk, is serving a five-year
>>> sentence for the manslaughter of 16-year-old Fred Barras.
>>> He is due to be freed in July after serving two-thirds of the
>>> sentence but was hoping to be released on parole this week.
>>>
>>> Mr Saunders stresses he has made no decision about seeking a
>>> judicial review but is going to consider the possibility.
>>> "I just think a man who has been disappointed in this way is
>>> entitled to see whether he has got any legal redress," said Mr
>>> Saunders.
>>>
>>> Martin has told friends that he believes that the parole board
>>> turned him down because of a probation officer's report.
>>> He says the report criticised him for not showing remorse and for
>>> "not living in the 21st Century".
>>>
>>> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
>>> hours later, if at all....
>>> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
>>> defending his home :-/
>>> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie teh
>>> Baseball Bat.
>>>
>>> FREE TONY MARTIN.
>>
>> I don't remember all the details of the actual event as it happened,
>> but surely there is a difference between warning somebody off and
>> killing them?
>
> Yes, and shooting a sixteen-year old _in the back_ can't possibly be
> right under any circumstances. Not to mention the fact firearms laws.
> Not to mention the fact that Mr Martin refuses to accept he has done
> anything wrong. Not to mention the fact that a five year sentence is
> astonishingly light for what was, without a doubt, deliberate taking
> of a life. Not to mention the fact that he will only serve 2/3 of that
> sentence anyway.
>
> Fair enough, from what I remember Mr Martin may well have had a
> personality disorder and possibly learning difficulties, (in which
> case prison may well not be the most appropriate place for him) but
> as he continues to believe that he has every right to kill fleeing
> intruders I would be inclined to say that he has got off extremely
> likely and may well in fact be dangerous. This isn't the US. Shooting
> at people is illegal, and killing them is illegal unless you can
> argue self-defence, which he can't - and even if he could, he still
> shouldn't have kept a gun by his bed _with the express purpose of
> shooting at people with it_.

What worries me is, as you point out Sophie, he has no remorse at all even
though he apparently cannot argue self defence.   I agree that it is mad
that we seem to be unable legally to defend our own property, but the is no
*thing* in my estimation that justifies taking a human life other than
accidentally (while we are talking burglary) and it can't have been
accidentally surely, if Mr Martin shows no remorse?  If he has learning
difficulties/personality disorders/whatever, then maybe he needs therapy and
psychiatric assessment not prison, but don't the authorities generally check
for a person's fitness to attend court/prison anyway?  They did with that
b****** who murdered two little school girls recently.

In message <b0hddn$p9kfr$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda 
<bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
>sophie wrote:
>> In message <b0gg7p$p3mds$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda
>> <bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
>>> Steve Leyland wrote:
>>>> Jailed farmer Tony Martin is considering a High Court challenge to
>>>> the Parole Board's decision not to grant him early release from
>>>> prison. Martin's lawyer, James Saunders, says he will examine the
>>>> possibility of seeking a judicial review of the board's decision,
>>>> which was made on Thursday. Martin, jailed for shooting dead a
>>>> teenage burglar who broke into his farmhouse with an accomplice, is
>>>> said to be "extremely angry" at his failure to win early release.
>>>>
>>>> Martin, 58, of Emneth Hungate, Norfolk, is serving a five-year
>>>> sentence for the manslaughter of 16-year-old Fred Barras.
>>>> He is due to be freed in July after serving two-thirds of the
>>>> sentence but was hoping to be released on parole this week.
>>>>
>>>> Mr Saunders stresses he has made no decision about seeking a
>>>> judicial review but is going to consider the possibility.
>>>> "I just think a man who has been disappointed in this way is
>>>> entitled to see whether he has got any legal redress," said Mr
>>>> Saunders.
>>>>
>>>> Martin has told friends that he believes that the parole board
>>>> turned him down because of a probation officer's report.
>>>> He says the report criticised him for not showing remorse and for
>>>> "not living in the 21st Century".
>>>>
>>>> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
>>>> hours later, if at all....
>>>> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
>>>> defending his home :-/
>>>> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie teh
>>>> Baseball Bat.
>>>>
>>>> FREE TONY MARTIN.
>>>
>>> I don't remember all the details of the actual event as it happened,
>>> but surely there is a difference between warning somebody off and
>>> killing them?
>>
>> Yes, and shooting a sixteen-year old _in the back_ can't possibly be
>> right under any circumstances. Not to mention the fact firearms laws.
>> Not to mention the fact that Mr Martin refuses to accept he has done
>> anything wrong. Not to mention the fact that a five year sentence is
>> astonishingly light for what was, without a doubt, deliberate taking
>> of a life. Not to mention the fact that he will only serve 2/3 of that
>> sentence anyway.
>>
>> Fair enough, from what I remember Mr Martin may well have had a
>> personality disorder and possibly learning difficulties, (in which
>> case prison may well not be the most appropriate place for him) but
>> as he continues to believe that he has every right to kill fleeing
>> intruders I would be inclined to say that he has got off extremely
>> likely and may well in fact be dangerous. This isn't the US. Shooting
>> at people is illegal, and killing them is illegal unless you can
>> argue self-defence, which he can't - and even if he could, he still
>> shouldn't have kept a gun by his bed _with the express purpose of
>> shooting at people with it_.
>
>What worries me is, as you point out Sophie, he has no remorse at all even
>though he apparently cannot argue self defence.   I agree that it is mad
>that we seem to be unable legally to defend our own property, but the is no
>*thing* in my estimation that justifies taking a human life other than
>accidentally (while we are talking burglary) and it can't have been
>accidentally surely, if Mr Martin shows no remorse?  If he has learning
>difficulties/personality disorders/whatever, then maybe he needs therapy and
>psychiatric assessment not prison, but don't the authorities generally check
>for a person's fitness to attend court/prison anyway?  They did with that
>b****** who murdered two little school girls recently.

Personality disorders don't disqualify you from standing trial, nor do 
learning difficulties, unless severe. (Being eleven doesn't disqualify 
you from standing trial!). It's a weird and complicated area of the law 
and I don't know all the ins and outs of it. As far as 
psychiatry/therapy are concerned, personality disorders are not deemed 
to be treatable, either with medication or counselling. I think current 
thinking has it that a lot of criminals, particularly violent criminals 
have personality disorders to a greater or lesser extent.

isn't it odd how words lose their meaning when you type them more than a 
couple of times in a paragraph?
-- 
sophie
mhm34x20

Meanwhile lurking by a stone in the mud, two eyes looked to see what I
was and then Steve Leyland spoke and this is what they said to me.......


>yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2 hours later,
>if at all....
>then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
>defending his
>home :-/
>I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie teh Baseball
>Bat.
>
>FREE TONY MARTIN.
>
>

He shot a minor in the back as he was running away. With an illegal
weapon. He was a paranoid nutcase who used to stay up all night with his
gun in case anyone decided to break in.

-- 

Izo

I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.
                - Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.

Over the hills and far away in england.chat, Leda came to play...

> Eddie Bernard wrote:
>> Over the hills and far away in england.chat, Leda came to play...
>>
>>> Steve Leyland wrote:
>>>> Jailed farmer Tony Martin is considering a High Court challenge to
>>>> the Parole Board's decision not to grant him early release from
>>>> prison. Martin's lawyer, James Saunders, says he will examine the
>>>> possibility of seeking a judicial review of the board's decision,
>>>> which was made on Thursday. Martin, jailed for shooting dead a
>>>> teenage burglar who broke into his farmhouse with an accomplice, is
>>>> said to be "extremely angry" at his failure to win early release.
>>>>
>>>> Martin, 58, of Emneth Hungate, Norfolk, is serving a five-year
>>>> sentence for the manslaughter of 16-year-old Fred Barras.
>>>> He is due to be freed in July after serving two-thirds of the
>>>> sentence but was hoping to be released on parole this week.
>>>>
>>>> Mr Saunders stresses he has made no decision about seeking a
>>>> judicial review but is going to consider the possibility.
>>>> "I just think a man who has been disappointed in this way is
>>>> entitled to see whether he has got any legal redress," said Mr
>>>> Saunders.
>>>>
>>>> Martin has told friends that he believes that the parole board
>>>> turned him down because of a probation officer's report.
>>>> He says the report criticised him for not showing remorse and for
>>>> "not living in the 21st Century".
>>>>
>>>> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
>>>> hours later, if at all....
>>>> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
>>>> defending his home :-/
>>>> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie teh
>>>> Baseball Bat.
>>>>
>>>> FREE TONY MARTIN.
>>>
>>> I don't remember all the details of the actual event as it happened,
>>> but surely there is a difference between warning somebody off and
>>> killing them? 
>>
>> Yes. The burglars were fleeing. While they shouldn't have been there
>> in the first place, the law only gives the right to *reasonable*
>> force. So why, as they burglars were running out of his house did he
>> fire a shotgun right into a place where it was obviously going to
>> kill the person ?
>>
>> Just as the state should have no right to kill prisoners, the
>> citizens of the state should also have no right to issue their own
>> swift justice by killing people. We all know lynch mobs don't solve
>> anything, and neither does killing a fleeing criminal ?
>>
>> All Tony Martin had to do is fire the gun into the ceiling or
>> something. Or at worst, shoot at the legs. It's clear that, while it
>> wasn't murder, it was manslaughter, and he should be punished as such.
>>
>> Of course though, no one here has the full details of this case, or
>> any case for that matter. Unless you were actually in the courtroom,
>> like the jury or were in the members gallery every day, you do not
>> have a full, as unbiased as possible picture of the events in
>> question, and therefore, judgement should be reserved. We have to
>> have faith in the jury system. After all, what alternative is there ?
>> Free killing of whoever you feel has "transgressed" your "laws" ?
>>
>> </soapbox>
> 
> PHILOSOPHY POTM!!!!!!!!!

Heh.
While we're on the subject, I think I'm going to run POTM into the
ground. 

-- 
The Critically Acclaimed Eddie Bernard  -====-  mhm34x11; TNPJRL: #666

"Since the best part of Eddie ran down his mother's leg, I think the only
person he'll ever be of any use to is himself." - Chris Raum

************** Now sitting pretty atop wd's killfile list. **************

- EC Post of the Month  >-------->  Winner: June & October 2002
- My Website  >------------------>  http://www.eddiebernard.myby.co.uk
- england.chat official site  >-->  http://www.england-chat.co.uk/

Over the hills and far away in england.chat, sophie came to play...

> In message <b0gg7p$p3mds$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda 
> <bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
>>Steve Leyland wrote:
>>> Jailed farmer Tony Martin is considering a High Court challenge to
>>> the Parole Board's decision not to grant him early release from
>>> prison. Martin's lawyer, James Saunders, says he will examine the
>>> possibility of seeking a judicial review of the board's decision,
>>> which was made on Thursday. Martin, jailed for shooting dead a
>>> teenage burglar who broke into his farmhouse with an accomplice, is
>>> said to be "extremely angry" at his failure to win early release.
>>>
>>> Martin, 58, of Emneth Hungate, Norfolk, is serving a five-year
>>> sentence for the manslaughter of 16-year-old Fred Barras.
>>> He is due to be freed in July after serving two-thirds of the
>>> sentence but was hoping to be released on parole this week.
>>>
>>> Mr Saunders stresses he has made no decision about seeking a judicial
>>> review but is going to consider the possibility.
>>> "I just think a man who has been disappointed in this way is entitled
>>> to see whether he has got any legal redress," said Mr Saunders.
>>>
>>> Martin has told friends that he believes that the parole board turned
>>> him down because of a probation officer's report.
>>> He says the report criticised him for not showing remorse and for
>>> "not living in the 21st Century".
>>>
>>> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
>>> hours later, if at all....
>>> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
>>> defending his home :-/
>>> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie teh
>>> Baseball Bat.
>>>
>>> FREE TONY MARTIN.
>>
>>I don't remember all the details of the actual event as it happened,
>>but surely there is a difference between warning somebody off and
>>killing them? 
> 
> Yes, and shooting a sixteen-year old _in the back_ can't possibly be 
> right under any circumstances. Not to mention the fact firearms laws. 
> Not to mention the fact that Mr Martin refuses to accept he has done 
> anything wrong. Not to mention the fact that a five year sentence is 
> astonishingly light for what was, without a doubt, deliberate taking of
> a life. Not to mention the fact that he will only serve 2/3 of that 
> sentence anyway.
> 
> Fair enough, from what I remember Mr Martin may well have had a 
> personality disorder and possibly learning difficulties, (in which case
> prison may well not be the most appropriate place for him) but as he 
> continues to believe that he has every right to kill fleeing intruders
> I would be inclined to say that he has got off extremely likely and may
> well in fact be dangerous. This isn't the US. Shooting at people is 
> illegal, and killing them is illegal unless you can argue self-defence,
> which he can't - and even if he could, he still shouldn't have kept a 
> gun by his bed _with the express purpose of shooting at people with
> it_. 

I concur entirely. Well said, Sophie.

-- 
The Critically Acclaimed Eddie Bernard  -====-  mhm34x11; TNPJRL: #666

"Since the best part of Eddie ran down his mother's leg, I think the only
person he'll ever be of any use to is himself." - Chris Raum

************** Now sitting pretty atop wd's killfile list. **************

- EC Post of the Month  >-------->  Winner: June & October 2002
- My Website  >------------------>  http://www.eddiebernard.myby.co.uk
- england.chat official site  >-->  http://www.england-chat.co.uk/

Over the hills and far away in england.chat, Leda came to play...

> I agree that it is mad that we seem to be unable legally to defend our
> own property, but the is no *thing* in my estimation that justifies
> taking a human life other than accidentally (while we are talking
> burglary) and it can't have been accidentally surely, if Mr Martin
> shows no remorse?  

I believe the law allows the use of "reasonable force" to defend one's
own life and property. What that means is open to interpretation
depending on the circumstances. BICBW. 

Naturally, in this case, a jury was convinced of the fact that Tony
Martin used force way and above what any sane person would call
"reasonable" and he should pay the price. 

-- 
The Critically Acclaimed Eddie Bernard  -====-  mhm34x11; TNPJRL: #666

"Since the best part of Eddie ran down his mother's leg, I think the only
person he'll ever be of any use to is himself." - Chris Raum

************** Now sitting pretty atop wd's killfile list. **************

- EC Post of the Month  >-------->  Winner: June & October 2002
- My Website  >------------------>  http://www.eddiebernard.myby.co.uk
- england.chat official site  >-->  http://www.england-chat.co.uk/

In message <VRtuC0LEHFL+EwqS@blueyonder.co.uk>, Izo Mezzo 
<Izo@hotmail.com> burbled:
>Meanwhile lurking by a stone in the mud, two eyes looked to see what I
>was and then Steve Leyland spoke and this is what they said to me.......
>
>
>>yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2 hours later,
>>if at all....
>>then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
>>defending his
>>home :-/
>>I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie teh Baseball
>>Bat.
>>
>>FREE TONY MARTIN.
>>
>>
>
>He shot a minor in the back as he was running away. With an illegal
>weapon. He was a paranoid nutcase who used to stay up all night with his
>gun in case anyone decided to break in.

succinct.
accurate.
sane.
-- 
sophie
mhm34x20

sophie wrote:
> In message <b0hddn$p9kfr$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda
> <bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
>> sophie wrote:
>>> In message <b0gg7p$p3mds$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda
>>> <bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
>>>> Steve Leyland wrote:
>>>>> Jailed farmer Tony Martin is considering a High Court challenge to
>>>>> the Parole Board's decision not to grant him early release from
>>>>> prison. Martin's lawyer, James Saunders, says he will examine the
>>>>> possibility of seeking a judicial review of the board's decision,
>>>>> which was made on Thursday. Martin, jailed for shooting dead a
>>>>> teenage burglar who broke into his farmhouse with an accomplice,
>>>>> is said to be "extremely angry" at his failure to win early
>>>>> release.
>>>>>
>>>>> Martin, 58, of Emneth Hungate, Norfolk, is serving a five-year
>>>>> sentence for the manslaughter of 16-year-old Fred Barras.
>>>>> He is due to be freed in July after serving two-thirds of the
>>>>> sentence but was hoping to be released on parole this week.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mr Saunders stresses he has made no decision about seeking a
>>>>> judicial review but is going to consider the possibility.
>>>>> "I just think a man who has been disappointed in this way is
>>>>> entitled to see whether he has got any legal redress," said Mr
>>>>> Saunders.
>>>>>
>>>>> Martin has told friends that he believes that the parole board
>>>>> turned him down because of a probation officer's report.
>>>>> He says the report criticised him for not showing remorse and for
>>>>> "not living in the 21st Century".
>>>>>
>>>>> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
>>>>> hours later, if at all....
>>>>> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
>>>>> defending his home :-/
>>>>> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie
>>>>> teh Baseball Bat.
>>>>>
>>>>> FREE TONY MARTIN.
>>>>
>>>> I don't remember all the details of the actual event as it
>>>> happened, but surely there is a difference between warning
>>>> somebody off and killing them?
>>>
>>> Yes, and shooting a sixteen-year old _in the back_ can't possibly be
>>> right under any circumstances. Not to mention the fact firearms
>>> laws. Not to mention the fact that Mr Martin refuses to accept he
>>> has done anything wrong. Not to mention the fact that a five year
>>> sentence is astonishingly light for what was, without a doubt,
>>> deliberate taking of a life. Not to mention the fact that he will
>>> only serve 2/3 of that sentence anyway.
>>>
>>> Fair enough, from what I remember Mr Martin may well have had a
>>> personality disorder and possibly learning difficulties, (in which
>>> case prison may well not be the most appropriate place for him) but
>>> as he continues to believe that he has every right to kill fleeing
>>> intruders I would be inclined to say that he has got off extremely
>>> likely and may well in fact be dangerous. This isn't the US.
>>> Shooting at people is illegal, and killing them is illegal unless
>>> you can argue self-defence, which he can't - and even if he could,
>>> he still shouldn't have kept a gun by his bed _with the express
>>> purpose of shooting at people with it_.
>>
>> What worries me is, as you point out Sophie, he has no remorse at
>> all even though he apparently cannot argue self defence.   I agree
>> that it is mad that we seem to be unable legally to defend our own
>> property, but the is no *thing* in my estimation that justifies
>> taking a human life other than accidentally (while we are talking
>> burglary) and it can't have been accidentally surely, if Mr Martin
>> shows no remorse?  If he has learning difficulties/personality
>> disorders/whatever, then maybe he needs therapy and psychiatric
>> assessment not prison, but don't the authorities generally check for
>> a person's fitness to attend court/prison anyway?  They did with
>> that b****** who murdered two little school girls recently.
>
> Personality disorders don't disqualify you from standing trial, nor do
> learning difficulties, unless severe. (Being eleven doesn't disqualify
> you from standing trial!). It's a weird and complicated area of the
> law and I don't know all the ins and outs of it. As far as
> psychiatry/therapy are concerned, personality disorders are not deemed
> to be treatable, either with medication or counselling. I think
> current thinking has it that a lot of criminals, particularly violent
> criminals have personality disorders to a greater or lesser extent.

But what do things like Schizophrenia and Multiple Personality Disorder
count as then?  I refuse to believe that it is appropriate to hold people
with those kinds of problems as responsible for their actions all the time.
It obviously depends on what sort of disorder this man has, but it seems to
me that if something is classed as a *disorder*, then it shouldn't be
treated in the same way as *misbehaviour* (in an adult sense) and that too
many things are classed as *disorders* or *special needs* when they need
just a bit of extra effort, meaning that real disorders or special needs are
often overlooked.

<gets off soap box cos Eddie wants it back!>

>
> isn't it odd how words lose their meaning when you type them more
> than a couple of times in a paragraph?

They lose their initial shock value, certainly!

Eddie Bernard wrote:
> Over the hills and far away in england.chat, Leda came to play...
>
>> Eddie Bernard wrote:
>>> Over the hills and far away in england.chat, Leda came to play...
>>>
>>>> Steve Leyland wrote:
>>>>> Jailed farmer Tony Martin is considering a High Court challenge to
>>>>> the Parole Board's decision not to grant him early release from
>>>>> prison. Martin's lawyer, James Saunders, says he will examine the
>>>>> possibility of seeking a judicial review of the board's decision,
>>>>> which was made on Thursday. Martin, jailed for shooting dead a
>>>>> teenage burglar who broke into his farmhouse with an accomplice,
>>>>> is said to be "extremely angry" at his failure to win early
>>>>> release.
>>>>>
>>>>> Martin, 58, of Emneth Hungate, Norfolk, is serving a five-year
>>>>> sentence for the manslaughter of 16-year-old Fred Barras.
>>>>> He is due to be freed in July after serving two-thirds of the
>>>>> sentence but was hoping to be released on parole this week.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mr Saunders stresses he has made no decision about seeking a
>>>>> judicial review but is going to consider the possibility.
>>>>> "I just think a man who has been disappointed in this way is
>>>>> entitled to see whether he has got any legal redress," said Mr
>>>>> Saunders.
>>>>>
>>>>> Martin has told friends that he believes that the parole board
>>>>> turned him down because of a probation officer's report.
>>>>> He says the report criticised him for not showing remorse and for
>>>>> "not living in the 21st Century".
>>>>>
>>>>> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
>>>>> hours later, if at all....
>>>>> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
>>>>> defending his home :-/
>>>>> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie
>>>>> teh Baseball Bat.
>>>>>
>>>>> FREE TONY MARTIN.
>>>>
>>>> I don't remember all the details of the actual event as it
>>>> happened, but surely there is a difference between warning
>>>> somebody off and killing them?
>>>
>>> Yes. The burglars were fleeing. While they shouldn't have been there
>>> in the first place, the law only gives the right to *reasonable*
>>> force. So why, as they burglars were running out of his house did he
>>> fire a shotgun right into a place where it was obviously going to
>>> kill the person ?
>>>
>>> Just as the state should have no right to kill prisoners, the
>>> citizens of the state should also have no right to issue their own
>>> swift justice by killing people. We all know lynch mobs don't solve
>>> anything, and neither does killing a fleeing criminal ?
>>>
>>> All Tony Martin had to do is fire the gun into the ceiling or
>>> something. Or at worst, shoot at the legs. It's clear that, while it
>>> wasn't murder, it was manslaughter, and he should be punished as
>>> such.
>>>
>>> Of course though, no one here has the full details of this case, or
>>> any case for that matter. Unless you were actually in the courtroom,
>>> like the jury or were in the members gallery every day, you do not
>>> have a full, as unbiased as possible picture of the events in
>>> question, and therefore, judgement should be reserved. We have to
>>> have faith in the jury system. After all, what alternative is there
>>> ? Free killing of whoever you feel has "transgressed" your "laws" ?
>>>
>>> </soapbox>
>>
>> PHILOSOPHY POTM!!!!!!!!!
>
> Heh.
> While we're on the subject, I think I'm going to run POTM into the
> ground.

Why?

sophie wrote:
> In message <VRtuC0LEHFL+EwqS@blueyonder.co.uk>, Izo Mezzo
> <Izo@hotmail.com> burbled:
>> Meanwhile lurking by a stone in the mud, two eyes looked to see what
>> I was and then Steve Leyland spoke and this is what they said to
>> me.......
>>
>>
>>> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
>>> hours later, if at all....
>>> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
>>> defending his
>>> home :-/
>>> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie
>>> teh Baseball Bat.
>>>
>>> FREE TONY MARTIN.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> He shot a minor in the back as he was running away. With an illegal
>> weapon. He was a paranoid nutcase who used to stay up all night with
>> his gun in case anyone decided to break in.
>
> succinct.
> accurate.
> sane.

In other words, brief but to the point!

In message <b0hop9$phdni$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda 
<bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
>sophie wrote:
>> In message <b0hddn$p9kfr$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda
>> <bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
>>> sophie wrote:
>>>> In message <b0gg7p$p3mds$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda
>>>> <bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
>>>>> Steve Leyland wrote:
>>>>>> Jailed farmer Tony Martin is considering a High Court challenge to
>>>>>> the Parole Board's decision not to grant him early release from
>>>>>> prison. Martin's lawyer, James Saunders, says he will examine the
>>>>>> possibility of seeking a judicial review of the board's decision,
>>>>>> which was made on Thursday. Martin, jailed for shooting dead a
>>>>>> teenage burglar who broke into his farmhouse with an accomplice,
>>>>>> is said to be "extremely angry" at his failure to win early
>>>>>> release.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Martin, 58, of Emneth Hungate, Norfolk, is serving a five-year
>>>>>> sentence for the manslaughter of 16-year-old Fred Barras.
>>>>>> He is due to be freed in July after serving two-thirds of the
>>>>>> sentence but was hoping to be released on parole this week.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mr Saunders stresses he has made no decision about seeking a
>>>>>> judicial review but is going to consider the possibility.
>>>>>> "I just think a man who has been disappointed in this way is
>>>>>> entitled to see whether he has got any legal redress," said Mr
>>>>>> Saunders.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Martin has told friends that he believes that the parole board
>>>>>> turned him down because of a probation officer's report.
>>>>>> He says the report criticised him for not showing remorse and for
>>>>>> "not living in the 21st Century".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
>>>>>> hours later, if at all....
>>>>>> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
>>>>>> defending his home :-/
>>>>>> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie
>>>>>> teh Baseball Bat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FREE TONY MARTIN.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't remember all the details of the actual event as it
>>>>> happened, but surely there is a difference between warning
>>>>> somebody off and killing them?
>>>>
>>>> Yes, and shooting a sixteen-year old _in the back_ can't possibly be
>>>> right under any circumstances. Not to mention the fact firearms
>>>> laws. Not to mention the fact that Mr Martin refuses to accept he
>>>> has done anything wrong. Not to mention the fact that a five year
>>>> sentence is astonishingly light for what was, without a doubt,
>>>> deliberate taking of a life. Not to mention the fact that he will
>>>> only serve 2/3 of that sentence anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Fair enough, from what I remember Mr Martin may well have had a
>>>> personality disorder and possibly learning difficulties, (in which
>>>> case prison may well not be the most appropriate place for him) but
>>>> as he continues to believe that he has every right to kill fleeing
>>>> intruders I would be inclined to say that he has got off extremely
>>>> likely and may well in fact be dangerous. This isn't the US.
>>>> Shooting at people is illegal, and killing them is illegal unless
>>>> you can argue self-defence, which he can't - and even if he could,
>>>> he still shouldn't have kept a gun by his bed _with the express
>>>> purpose of shooting at people with it_.
>>>
>>> What worries me is, as you point out Sophie, he has no remorse at
>>> all even though he apparently cannot argue self defence.   I agree
>>> that it is mad that we seem to be unable legally to defend our own
>>> property, but the is no *thing* in my estimation that justifies
>>> taking a human life other than accidentally (while we are talking
>>> burglary) and it can't have been accidentally surely, if Mr Martin
>>> shows no remorse?  If he has learning difficulties/personality
>>> disorders/whatever, then maybe he needs therapy and psychiatric
>>> assessment not prison, but don't the authorities generally check for
>>> a person's fitness to attend court/prison anyway?  They did with
>>> that b****** who murdered two little school girls recently.
>>
>> Personality disorders don't disqualify you from standing trial, nor do
>> learning difficulties, unless severe. (Being eleven doesn't disqualify
>> you from standing trial!). It's a weird and complicated area of the
>> law and I don't know all the ins and outs of it. As far as
>> psychiatry/therapy are concerned, personality disorders are not deemed
>> to be treatable, either with medication or counselling. I think
>> current thinking has it that a lot of criminals, particularly violent
>> criminals have personality disorders to a greater or lesser extent.
>
>But what do things like Schizophrenia

schizophrenia is a mental illness and is deemed to be treatable although 
not curable.

>and Multiple Personality Disorder

this isn't, bizarrely, a personality disorder in this sense!

>count as then?  I refuse to believe that it is appropriate to hold people
>with those kinds of problems as responsible for their actions all the time.

no, it isn't, morally or within the law. A defendant has to be capable 
of understanding the charges against them and (I think...) able to 
instruct their counsel in order to stand trial, and even if they _do_ 
stand trial, this doesn't mean that they will necessarily go to prison 
if convicted. I'm pretty sure that fitness to stand trial and 
responsibility for one's actions are different concepts in law - hence 
the defence "not guilty by reason of insanity", or however they put it. 
Also, people (ie Ian Brady, Peter Sutcliffe &c) can be found guilty but 
_not_ sent to prison but rather to secure hospitals, in which case there 
is no minimum tariff.
If "unfit to stand trial", a person can be held in a mental institution 
until fit.

Personality disorders are, as I understand it, in the realms of 
psychopathy or sociopathy rather than mental illness.

>It obviously depends on what sort of disorder this man has, but it seems to
>me that if something is classed as a *disorder*, then it shouldn't be
>treated in the same way as *misbehaviour* (in an adult sense) and that too
>many things are classed as *disorders* or *special needs* when they need
>just a bit of extra effort, meaning that real disorders or special needs are
>often overlooked.

I think many criminals are victims. But not all victims become 
criminals, which means that even the victims have to take some kind of 
responsibility for their actions And I think many criminals are simply 
unpleasant, selfish, and often violent bastards - and while I have 
serious reservations about the effectiveness and morality of our prison 
system - I have far, far fewer reservations about locking up the 
violent, selfish and abusive (and people who think that they have a 
right to shoot sixteen year-old kids in the back) than I do about 
locking up the weak, the silly and the helpless. And I think that 
there's enough of a chance that a sixteen year-old is weak and silly to 
give him the benefit of the doubt - as the justice system would have 
done had he lived to stand trial, by declaring his conviction not to be 
the same as an adult conviction.

Tony Martin believed, and continues to believe, that what he did was 
right, appropriate and morally acceptable - and that is a major symptom 
of his personality disorder (and BOY am I beginning to hate that phrase! 
tomorrow I will find out that he doesn't have and has never been 
considered to have had one and I will look a TOTAL PRATT!!). And really, 
what can you do with someone like that? oh yes, lock them up!
>
><gets off soap box cos Eddie wants it back!>

I have my own!
heeheeheeheeheeheeheeheehee!
-- 
sophie
mhm34x20

In message <b0hp9k$p5abe$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda 
<bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
>sophie wrote:
>> In message <VRtuC0LEHFL+EwqS@blueyonder.co.uk>, Izo Mezzo
>> <Izo@hotmail.com> burbled:
>>> Meanwhile lurking by a stone in the mud, two eyes looked to see what
>>> I was and then Steve Leyland spoke and this is what they said to
>>> me.......
>>>
>>>
>>>> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
>>>> hours later, if at all....
>>>> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
>>>> defending his
>>>> home :-/
>>>> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie
>>>> teh Baseball Bat.
>>>>
>>>> FREE TONY MARTIN.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> He shot a minor in the back as he was running away. With an illegal
>>> weapon. He was a paranoid nutcase who used to stay up all night with
>>> his gun in case anyone decided to break in.
>>
>> succinct.
>> accurate.
>> sane.
>
>In other words, brief but to the point!

I have spent far too much of my life failing on both points.
snifsnifsnif.

-- 
sophie
mhm34x20

Over the hills and far away in england.chat, sophie came to play...

> In message <b0hp9k$p5abe$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda 
> <bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
>>sophie wrote:
>>> In message <VRtuC0LEHFL+EwqS@blueyonder.co.uk>, Izo Mezzo
>>> <Izo@hotmail.com> burbled:
>>>> Meanwhile lurking by a stone in the mud, two eyes looked to see what
>>>> I was and then Steve Leyland spoke and this is what they said to
>>>> me....... 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
>>>>> hours later, if at all....
>>>>> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
>>>>> defending his
>>>>> home :-/
>>>>> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie
>>>>> teh Baseball Bat.
>>>>>
>>>>> FREE TONY MARTIN.
>>>>
>>>> He shot a minor in the back as he was running away. With an illegal
>>>> weapon. He was a paranoid nutcase who used to stay up all night with
>>>> his gun in case anyone decided to break in.
>>>
>>> succinct.
>>> accurate.
>>> sane.
>>
>>In other words, brief but to the point!
> 
> I have spent far too much of my life failing on both points.
> snifsnifsnif.

Still, you can't beat a good rant...

-- 
The Critically Acclaimed Eddie Bernard  -====-  mhm34x11; TNPJRL: #666

"Since the best part of Eddie ran down his mother's leg, I think the only
person he'll ever be of any use to is himself." - Chris Raum

************** Now sitting pretty atop wd's killfile list. **************

- EC Post of the Month  >-------->  Winner: June & October 2002
- My Website  >------------------>  http://www.eddiebernard.myby.co.uk
- england.chat official site  >-->  http://www.england-chat.co.uk/

Meanwhile lurking by a stone in the mud, two eyes looked to see what I
was and then sophie spoke and this is what they said to me.......


>In message <VRtuC0LEHFL+EwqS@blueyonder.co.uk>, Izo Mezzo
><Izo@hotmail.com> burbled:
>>Meanwhile lurking by a stone in the mud, two eyes looked to see what I
>>was and then Steve Leyland spoke and this is what they said to me.......
>>
>>
>>>yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
>>>hours later,
>>>if at all....
>>>then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
>>>defending his
>>>home :-/
>>>I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie teh Baseball
>>>Bat.
>>>
>>>FREE TONY MARTIN.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>He shot a minor in the back as he was running away. With an illegal
>>weapon. He was a paranoid nutcase who used to stay up all night with his
>>gun in case anyone decided to break in.
>
>succinct.
>accurate.
>sane.


Wibble.


-- 

Izo

I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.
                - Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.

Meanwhile lurking by a stone in the mud, two eyes looked to see what I
was and then sophie spoke and this is what they said to me.......


>In message <b0hp9k$p5abe$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda
><bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
>>sophie wrote:
>>> In message <VRtuC0LEHFL+EwqS@blueyonder.co.uk>, Izo Mezzo
>>> <Izo@hotmail.com> burbled:
>>>> Meanwhile lurking by a stone in the mud, two eyes looked to see what
>>>> I was and then Steve Leyland spoke and this is what they said to
>>>> me.......
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
>>>>> hours later, if at all....
>>>>> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
>>>>> defending his
>>>>> home :-/
>>>>> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie
>>>>> teh Baseball Bat.
>>>>>
>>>>> FREE TONY MARTIN.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> He shot a minor in the back as he was running away. With an illegal
>>>> weapon. He was a paranoid nutcase who used to stay up all night with
>>>> his gun in case anyone decided to break in.
>>>
>>> succinct.
>>> accurate.
>>> sane.
>>
>>In other words, brief but to the point!
>
>I have spent far too much of my life failing on both points.
>snifsnifsnif.
>

I couldn't be arsed ranting.


-- 

Izo

I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.
                - Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.

sophie wrote:
> In message <b0hop9$phdni$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda
> <bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
>> sophie wrote:
>>> In message <b0hddn$p9kfr$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda
>>> <bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
>>>> sophie wrote:
>>>>> In message <b0gg7p$p3mds$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda
>>>>> <bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
>>>>>> Steve Leyland wrote:
>>>>>>> Jailed farmer Tony Martin is considering a High Court challenge
>>>>>>> to the Parole Board's decision not to grant him early release
>>>>>>> from prison. Martin's lawyer, James Saunders, says he will
>>>>>>> examine the possibility of seeking a judicial review of the
>>>>>>> board's decision, which was made on Thursday. Martin, jailed
>>>>>>> for shooting dead a teenage burglar who broke into his
>>>>>>> farmhouse with an accomplice, is said to be "extremely angry"
>>>>>>> at his failure to win early release.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Martin, 58, of Emneth Hungate, Norfolk, is serving a five-year
>>>>>>> sentence for the manslaughter of 16-year-old Fred Barras.
>>>>>>> He is due to be freed in July after serving two-thirds of the
>>>>>>> sentence but was hoping to be released on parole this week.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mr Saunders stresses he has made no decision about seeking a
>>>>>>> judicial review but is going to consider the possibility.
>>>>>>> "I just think a man who has been disappointed in this way is
>>>>>>> entitled to see whether he has got any legal redress," said Mr
>>>>>>> Saunders.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Martin has told friends that he believes that the parole board
>>>>>>> turned him down because of a probation officer's report.
>>>>>>> He says the report criticised him for not showing remorse and
>>>>>>> for "not living in the 21st Century".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive
>>>>>>> 2 hours later, if at all....
>>>>>>> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man
>>>>>>> for defending his home :-/
>>>>>>> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie
>>>>>>> teh Baseball Bat.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FREE TONY MARTIN.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't remember all the details of the actual event as it
>>>>>> happened, but surely there is a difference between warning
>>>>>> somebody off and killing them?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, and shooting a sixteen-year old _in the back_ can't possibly
>>>>> be right under any circumstances. Not to mention the fact firearms
>>>>> laws. Not to mention the fact that Mr Martin refuses to accept he
>>>>> has done anything wrong. Not to mention the fact that a five year
>>>>> sentence is astonishingly light for what was, without a doubt,
>>>>> deliberate taking of a life. Not to mention the fact that he will
>>>>> only serve 2/3 of that sentence anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fair enough, from what I remember Mr Martin may well have had a
>>>>> personality disorder and possibly learning difficulties, (in which
>>>>> case prison may well not be the most appropriate place for him)
>>>>> but as he continues to believe that he has every right to kill
>>>>> fleeing intruders I would be inclined to say that he has got off
>>>>> extremely likely and may well in fact be dangerous. This isn't
>>>>> the US. Shooting at people is illegal, and killing them is
>>>>> illegal unless you can argue self-defence, which he can't - and
>>>>> even if he could, he still shouldn't have kept a gun by his bed
>>>>> _with the express purpose of shooting at people with it_.
>>>>
>>>> What worries me is, as you point out Sophie, he has no remorse at
>>>> all even though he apparently cannot argue self defence.   I agree
>>>> that it is mad that we seem to be unable legally to defend our own
>>>> property, but the is no *thing* in my estimation that justifies
>>>> taking a human life other than accidentally (while we are talking
>>>> burglary) and it can't have been accidentally surely, if Mr Martin
>>>> shows no remorse?  If he has learning difficulties/personality
>>>> disorders/whatever, then maybe he needs therapy and psychiatric
>>>> assessment not prison, but don't the authorities generally check
>>>> for a person's fitness to attend court/prison anyway?  They did
>>>> with that b****** who murdered two little school girls recently.
>>>
>>> Personality disorders don't disqualify you from standing trial, nor
>>> do learning difficulties, unless severe. (Being eleven doesn't
>>> disqualify you from standing trial!). It's a weird and complicated
>>> area of the law and I don't know all the ins and outs of it. As far
>>> as psychiatry/therapy are concerned, personality disorders are not
>>> deemed to be treatable, either with medication or counselling. I
>>> think current thinking has it that a lot of criminals, particularly
>>> violent criminals have personality disorders to a greater or lesser
>>> extent.
>>
>> But what do things like Schizophrenia
>
> schizophrenia is a mental illness and is deemed to be treatable
> although not curable.
>
>> and Multiple Personality Disorder
>
> this isn't, bizarrely, a personality disorder in this sense!
>
>> count as then?  I refuse to believe that it is appropriate to hold
>> people with those kinds of problems as responsible for their actions
>> all the time.
>
> no, it isn't, morally or within the law. A defendant has to be capable
> of understanding the charges against them and (I think...) able to
> instruct their counsel in order to stand trial, and even if they _do_
> stand trial, this doesn't mean that they will necessarily go to prison
> if convicted. I'm pretty sure that fitness to stand trial and
> responsibility for one's actions are different concepts in law - hence
> the defence "not guilty by reason of insanity", or however they put
> it. Also, people (ie Ian Brady, Peter Sutcliffe &c) can be found
> guilty but _not_ sent to prison but rather to secure hospitals, in
> which case there is no minimum tariff.
> If "unfit to stand trial", a person can be held in a mental
> institution until fit.
>
> Personality disorders are, as I understand it, in the realms of
> psychopathy or sociopathy rather than mental illness.
>
>> It obviously depends on what sort of disorder this man has, but it
>> seems to me that if something is classed as a *disorder*, then it
>> shouldn't be treated in the same way as *misbehaviour* (in an adult
>> sense) and that too many things are classed as *disorders* or
>> *special needs* when they need just a bit of extra effort, meaning
>> that real disorders or special needs are often overlooked.
>
> I think many criminals are victims. But not all victims become
> criminals, which means that even the victims have to take some kind of
> responsibility for their actions And I think many criminals are simply
> unpleasant, selfish, and often violent bastards - and while I have
> serious reservations about the effectiveness and morality of our
> prison system - I have far, far fewer reservations about locking up
> the violent, selfish and abusive (and people who think that they have
> a right to shoot sixteen year-old kids in the back) than I do about
> locking up the weak, the silly and the helpless. And I think that
> there's enough of a chance that a sixteen year-old is weak and silly
> to give him the benefit of the doubt - as the justice system would
> have done had he lived to stand trial, by declaring his conviction
> not to be the same as an adult conviction.
>
> Tony Martin believed, and continues to believe, that what he did was
> right, appropriate and morally acceptable - and that is a major
> symptom of his personality disorder (and BOY am I beginning to hate
> that phrase! tomorrow I will find out that he doesn't have and has
> never been considered to have had one and I will look a TOTAL
> PRATT!!). And really, what can you do with someone like that? oh yes,
> lock them up!

If he has no social or moral conscience, as suggested by his lack of
remorse, then he may always be a danger to the rest of society so yes, I
agree, he is not fit or ready to be released.

>>
>> <gets off soap box cos Eddie wants it back!>
>
> I have my own!
> heeheeheeheeheeheeheeheehee!

So did I, but I took it to work for the kids to make models out of!

sophie wrote:
> In message <b0hp9k$p5abe$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda
> <bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
>> sophie wrote:
>>> In message <VRtuC0LEHFL+EwqS@blueyonder.co.uk>, Izo Mezzo
>>> <Izo@hotmail.com> burbled:
>>>> Meanwhile lurking by a stone in the mud, two eyes looked to see
>>>> what I was and then Steve Leyland spoke and this is what they said
>>>> to me.......
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
>>>>> hours later, if at all....
>>>>> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
>>>>> defending his
>>>>> home :-/
>>>>> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie
>>>>> teh Baseball Bat.
>>>>>
>>>>> FREE TONY MARTIN.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> He shot a minor in the back as he was running away. With an illegal
>>>> weapon. He was a paranoid nutcase who used to stay up all night
>>>> with his gun in case anyone decided to break in.
>>>
>>> succinct.
>>> accurate.
>>> sane.
>>
>> In other words, brief but to the point!
>
> I have spent far too much of my life failing on both points.
> snifsnifsnif.

Perhaps it's a woman thing.

Eddie Bernard wrote:
> Over the hills and far away in england.chat, sophie came to play...
>
>> In message <b0hp9k$p5abe$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda
>> <bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
>>> sophie wrote:
>>>> In message <VRtuC0LEHFL+EwqS@blueyonder.co.uk>, Izo Mezzo
>>>> <Izo@hotmail.com> burbled:
>>>>> Meanwhile lurking by a stone in the mud, two eyes looked to see
>>>>> what I was and then Steve Leyland spoke and this is what they
>>>>> said to me.......
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
>>>>>> hours later, if at all....
>>>>>> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man
>>>>>> for defending his
>>>>>> home :-/
>>>>>> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie
>>>>>> teh Baseball Bat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FREE TONY MARTIN.
>>>>>
>>>>> He shot a minor in the back as he was running away. With an
>>>>> illegal weapon. He was a paranoid nutcase who used to stay up all
>>>>> night with his gun in case anyone decided to break in.
>>>>
>>>> succinct.
>>>> accurate.
>>>> sane.
>>>
>>> In other words, brief but to the point!
>>
>> I have spent far too much of my life failing on both points.
>> snifsnifsnif.
>
> Still, you can't beat a good rant...

How very true.....

Izo Mezzo wrote:
> Meanwhile lurking by a stone in the mud, two eyes looked to see what I
> was and then sophie spoke and this is what they said to me.......
>
>
>> In message <b0hp9k$p5abe$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda
>> <bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
>>> sophie wrote:
>>>> In message <VRtuC0LEHFL+EwqS@blueyonder.co.uk>, Izo Mezzo
>>>> <Izo@hotmail.com> burbled:
>>>>> Meanwhile lurking by a stone in the mud, two eyes looked to see
>>>>> what I was and then Steve Leyland spoke and this is what they
>>>>> said to me.......
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
>>>>>> hours later, if at all....
>>>>>> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man
>>>>>> for defending his
>>>>>> home :-/
>>>>>> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie
>>>>>> teh Baseball Bat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FREE TONY MARTIN.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> He shot a minor in the back as he was running away. With an
>>>>> illegal weapon. He was a paranoid nutcase who used to stay up all
>>>>> night with his gun in case anyone decided to break in.
>>>>
>>>> succinct.
>>>> accurate.
>>>> sane.
>>>
>>> In other words, brief but to the point!
>>
>> I have spent far too much of my life failing on both points.
>> snifsnifsnif.
>>
>
> I couldn't be arsed ranting.

That's a man thing.

Hmmm...
What *is* that strange light in teh night sky?
A sekrit spy satellite snooping on me?
Could it be teh new International Space Station?
Naaah, it's just Eddie Bernard's dummy spat into orbit!

: Over the hills and far away in england.chat, Leda came to play...
:
:: Steve Leyland wrote:
::: Jailed farmer Tony Martin is considering a High Court challenge to
::: the Parole Board's decision not to grant him early release from
::: prison. Martin's lawyer, James Saunders, says he will examine the
::: possibility of seeking a judicial review of the board's decision,
::: which was made on Thursday. Martin, jailed for shooting dead a
::: teenage burglar who broke into his farmhouse with an accomplice, is
::: said to be "extremely angry" at his failure to win early release.
:::
::: Martin, 58, of Emneth Hungate, Norfolk, is serving a five-year
::: sentence for the manslaughter of 16-year-old Fred Barras.
::: He is due to be freed in July after serving two-thirds of the
::: sentence but was hoping to be released on parole this week.
:::
::: Mr Saunders stresses he has made no decision about seeking a judicial
::: review but is going to consider the possibility.
::: "I just think a man who has been disappointed in this way is entitled
::: to see whether he has got any legal redress," said Mr Saunders.
:::
::: Martin has told friends that he believes that the parole board turned
::: him down because of a probation officer's report.
::: He says the report criticised him for not showing remorse and for
::: "not living in the 21st Century".
:::
::: yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
::: hours later, if at all....
::: then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
::: defending his home :-/
::: I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie teh
::: Baseball Bat.
:::
::: FREE TONY MARTIN.
::
:: I don't remember all the details of the actual event as it happened,
:: but surely there is a difference between warning somebody off and
:: killing them?
:
: Yes. The burglars were fleeing. While they shouldn't have been there in
: the first place, the law only gives the right to *reasonable* force. So
: why, as they burglars were running out of his house did he fire a shotgun
: right into a place where it was obviously going to kill the person ?
:
: Just as the state should have no right to kill prisoners, the citizens of
: the state should also have no right to issue their own swift justice by
: killing people. We all know lynch mobs don't solve anything, and neither
: does killing a fleeing criminal ?
:
: All Tony Martin had to do is fire the gun into the ceiling or something.
: Or at worst, shoot at the legs. It's clear that, while it wasn't murder,
: it was manslaughter, and he should be punished as such.
:
: Of course though, no one here has the full details of this case, or any
: case for that matter. Unless you were actually in the courtroom, like the
: jury or were in the members gallery every day, you do not have a full, as
: unbiased as possible picture of the events in question, and therefore,
: judgement should be reserved. We have to have faith in the jury system.
: After all, what alternative is there ?  Free killing of whoever you feel
: has "transgressed" your "laws" ?

AFAIK he had been burgled earlier by these lowlife scumbags?
with the effects of adrenaline whilst under threat, I can honestly understand
his actions.
I was once burgled whilst away at a music festival and returned home to find
most of my stuff gone, but some of my stuff was stacked in the outside toilet in
the back yard. I waited in there all night with a large lump hammer, and would
willingly have used it had they turned up to collect. (and I'm a peace-loving
old hippy FFS!)
The feeling of violation when one's home is invaded by thieves is not nice. not
nice at all.
I'm afraid that while the police service is so underfunded and ineffectual,
citizens are forced to take the law into their own hands.
and as they used to say *an englishman's home is his castle*.

-- 
Steve Leyland
mhm32x16  Smeeter#35
flower: three 6 four 9 five 8 eight 9

  =^/\/\E0\/\/ /\/\E0\/\/ ARMY^=

Men are like coolers...load them with beer and you can take them anywhere.

======================================================================

"Warning to all:
Steve Leyland is a trolling twat of the highest order. Killfile the muppet now
and move on. Even the briefest of searches on his past UseNet posts will reveal
the truth. You have been warned.
*plonk*"

Bastard Bear, uk.rec.motorcycles
======================================================================

"It's a bigger shame that packs of idiots can't keep their profanities
and idiocies in groups where such is the norm, but instead have to go
crying for attention in groups that don't deal in heavy cross posting,
cascades, profanity, abject stupidity, and every other moronic thing
that Steve Leyland, Dean Humphries, and Eddie Bernard represent."

Mike Soja, alt.bad.clams

Steve Leyland wrote:
> Hmmm...
> What *is* that strange light in teh night sky?
> A sekrit spy satellite snooping on me?
> Could it be teh new International Space Station?
> Naaah, it's just Eddie Bernard's dummy spat into orbit!
>
>> Over the hills and far away in england.chat, Leda came to play...
>>
>>> Steve Leyland wrote:
>>>> Jailed farmer Tony Martin is considering a High Court challenge to
>>>> the Parole Board's decision not to grant him early release from
>>>> prison. Martin's lawyer, James Saunders, says he will examine the
>>>> possibility of seeking a judicial review of the board's decision,
>>>> which was made on Thursday. Martin, jailed for shooting dead a
>>>> teenage burglar who broke into his farmhouse with an accomplice, is
>>>> said to be "extremely angry" at his failure to win early release.
>>>>
>>>> Martin, 58, of Emneth Hungate, Norfolk, is serving a five-year
>>>> sentence for the manslaughter of 16-year-old Fred Barras.
>>>> He is due to be freed in July after serving two-thirds of the
>>>> sentence but was hoping to be released on parole this week.
>>>>
>>>> Mr Saunders stresses he has made no decision about seeking a
>>>> judicial review but is going to consider the possibility.
>>>> "I just think a man who has been disappointed in this way is
>>>> entitled to see whether he has got any legal redress," said Mr
>>>> Saunders.
>>>>
>>>> Martin has told friends that he believes that the parole board
>>>> turned him down because of a probation officer's report.
>>>> He says the report criticised him for not showing remorse and for
>>>> "not living in the 21st Century".
>>>>
>>>> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
>>>> hours later, if at all....
>>>> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
>>>> defending his home :-/
>>>> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie
>>>> teh Baseball Bat.
>>>>
>>>> FREE TONY MARTIN.
>>>
>>> I don't remember all the details of the actual event as it happened,
>>> but surely there is a difference between warning somebody off and
>>> killing them?
>>
>> Yes. The burglars were fleeing. While they shouldn't have been there
>> in the first place, the law only gives the right to *reasonable*
>> force. So why, as they burglars were running out of his house did he
>> fire a shotgun right into a place where it was obviously going to
>> kill the person ?
>>
>> Just as the state should have no right to kill prisoners, the
>> citizens of the state should also have no right to issue their own
>> swift justice by killing people. We all know lynch mobs don't solve
>> anything, and neither does killing a fleeing criminal ?
>>
>> All Tony Martin had to do is fire the gun into the ceiling or
>> something. Or at worst, shoot at the legs. It's clear that, while it
>> wasn't murder, it was manslaughter, and he should be punished as
>> such.
>>
>> Of course though, no one here has the full details of this case, or
>> any case for that matter. Unless you were actually in the courtroom,
>> like the jury or were in the members gallery every day, you do not
>> have a full, as unbiased as possible picture of the events in
>> question, and therefore, judgement should be reserved. We have to
>> have faith in the jury system. After all, what alternative is there
>> ?  Free killing of whoever you feel has "transgressed" your "laws" ?
>
> AFAIK he had been burgled earlier by these lowlife scumbags?
> with the effects of adrenaline whilst under threat, I can honestly
> understand his actions.
> I was once burgled whilst away at a music festival and returned home
> to find most of my stuff gone, but some of my stuff was stacked in
> the outside toilet in the back yard. I waited in there all night with
> a large lump hammer, and would willingly have used it had they turned
> up to collect. (and I'm a peace-loving old hippy FFS!)
> The feeling of violation when one's home is invaded by thieves is not
> nice. not nice at all.
> I'm afraid that while the police service is so underfunded and
> ineffectual, citizens are forced to take the law into their own hands.
> and as they used to say *an englishman's home is his castle*.

OK point taken.  However, as a newly estranged wife with two small girls to
look after and an ex husband who had made many enemies, I was once awoken by
probably two blokes trying to break in through the patio doors. I used to go
to bed with a large rolling pin by my bed after that in case they should
ever come back.  My intention was to wave it at them and scream, never to
attack them physically and I had two little girls of 4 and 1 to defend.
This Martin guy actually shot these lads in the back.......

Hmmm...
What *is* that strange light in teh night sky?
A sekrit spy satellite snooping on me?
Could it be teh new International Space Station?
Naaah, it's just Leda's dummy spat into orbit!

: Steve Leyland wrote:
:: Hmmm...
:: What *is* that strange light in teh night sky?
:: A sekrit spy satellite snooping on me?
:: Could it be teh new International Space Station?
:: Naaah, it's just Eddie Bernard's dummy spat into orbit!
::
::: Over the hills and far away in england.chat, Leda came to play...
:::
:::: Steve Leyland wrote:
::::: Jailed farmer Tony Martin is considering a High Court challenge to
::::: the Parole Board's decision not to grant him early release from
::::: prison. Martin's lawyer, James Saunders, says he will examine the
::::: possibility of seeking a judicial review of the board's decision,
::::: which was made on Thursday. Martin, jailed for shooting dead a
::::: teenage burglar who broke into his farmhouse with an accomplice, is
::::: said to be "extremely angry" at his failure to win early release.
:::::
::::: Martin, 58, of Emneth Hungate, Norfolk, is serving a five-year
::::: sentence for the manslaughter of 16-year-old Fred Barras.
::::: He is due to be freed in July after serving two-thirds of the
::::: sentence but was hoping to be released on parole this week.
:::::
::::: Mr Saunders stresses he has made no decision about seeking a
::::: judicial review but is going to consider the possibility.
::::: "I just think a man who has been disappointed in this way is
::::: entitled to see whether he has got any legal redress," said Mr
::::: Saunders.
:::::
::::: Martin has told friends that he believes that the parole board
::::: turned him down because of a probation officer's report.
::::: He says the report criticised him for not showing remorse and for
::::: "not living in the 21st Century".
:::::
::::: yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
::::: hours later, if at all....
::::: then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
::::: defending his home :-/
::::: I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie
::::: teh Baseball Bat.
:::::
::::: FREE TONY MARTIN.
::::
:::: I don't remember all the details of the actual event as it happened,
:::: but surely there is a difference between warning somebody off and
:::: killing them?
:::
::: Yes. The burglars were fleeing. While they shouldn't have been there
::: in the first place, the law only gives the right to *reasonable*
::: force. So why, as they burglars were running out of his house did he
::: fire a shotgun right into a place where it was obviously going to
::: kill the person ?
:::
::: Just as the state should have no right to kill prisoners, the
::: citizens of the state should also have no right to issue their own
::: swift justice by killing people. We all know lynch mobs don't solve
::: anything, and neither does killing a fleeing criminal ?
:::
::: All Tony Martin had to do is fire the gun into the ceiling or
::: something. Or at worst, shoot at the legs. It's clear that, while it
::: wasn't murder, it was manslaughter, and he should be punished as
::: such.
:::
::: Of course though, no one here has the full details of this case, or
::: any case for that matter. Unless you were actually in the courtroom,
::: like the jury or were in the members gallery every day, you do not
::: have a full, as unbiased as possible picture of the events in
::: question, and therefore, judgement should be reserved. We have to
::: have faith in the jury system. After all, what alternative is there
::: ?  Free killing of whoever you feel has "transgressed" your "laws" ?
::
:: AFAIK he had been burgled earlier by these lowlife scumbags?
:: with the effects of adrenaline whilst under threat, I can honestly
:: understand his actions.
:: I was once burgled whilst away at a music festival and returned home
:: to find most of my stuff gone, but some of my stuff was stacked in
:: the outside toilet in the back yard. I waited in there all night with
:: a large lump hammer, and would willingly have used it had they turned
:: up to collect. (and I'm a peace-loving old hippy FFS!)
:: The feeling of violation when one's home is invaded by thieves is not
:: nice. not nice at all.
:: I'm afraid that while the police service is so underfunded and
:: ineffectual, citizens are forced to take the law into their own hands.
:: and as they used to say *an englishman's home is his castle*.
:
: OK point taken.  However, as a newly estranged wife with two small girls to
: look after and an ex husband who had made many enemies, I was once awoken by
: probably two blokes trying to break in through the patio doors.

Yikes!

: I used to go
: to bed with a large rolling pin by my bed after that in case they should
: ever come back.  My intention was to wave it at them and scream, never to
: attack them physically and I had two little girls of 4 and 1 to defend.

So you really wouldn't have wielded the rolling pin if they had attacked you or
the kids?

: This Martin guy actually shot these lads in the back.......

yes. Good.
one less thieving scumbag on the planet.
What amazes me is that the one who survived is suing Martin for damages,
including *loss of earnings*, even though he'd never done an honest day's work
in his life.

-- 
Steve Leyland
mhm32x16  Smeeter#35
flower: three 6 four 9 five 8 eight 9

  =^/\/\E0\/\/ /\/\E0\/\/ ARMY^=

I am certainly not one of those who need to be prodded. In fact, if anything, I
am the prod. - Sir Winston Churchill

======================================================================

"Warning to all:
Steve Leyland is a trolling twat of the highest order. Killfile the muppet now
and move on. Even the briefest of searches on his past UseNet posts will reveal
the truth. You have been warned.
*plonk*"

Bastard Bear, uk.rec.motorcycles
======================================================================

"It's a bigger shame that packs of idiots can't keep their profanities
and idiocies in groups where such is the norm, but instead have to go
crying for attention in groups that don't deal in heavy cross posting,
cascades, profanity, abject stupidity, and every other moronic thing
that Steve Leyland, Dean Humphries, and Eddie Bernard represent."

Mike Soja, alt.bad.clams

Hmmm...
What *is* that strange light in teh night sky?
A sekrit spy satellite snooping on me?
Could it be teh new International Space Station?
Naaah, it's just sophie's dummy spat into orbit!

: In message <b0gg7p$p3mds$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda
: <bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
:: Steve Leyland wrote:
::: Jailed farmer Tony Martin is considering a High Court challenge to
::: the Parole Board's decision not to grant him early release from
::: prison. Martin's lawyer, James Saunders, says he will examine the
::: possibility of seeking a judicial review of the board's decision,
::: which was made on Thursday. Martin, jailed for shooting dead a
::: teenage burglar who broke into his farmhouse with an accomplice, is
::: said to be "extremely angry" at his failure to win early release.
:::
::: Martin, 58, of Emneth Hungate, Norfolk, is serving a five-year
::: sentence for the manslaughter of 16-year-old Fred Barras.
::: He is due to be freed in July after serving two-thirds of the
::: sentence but was hoping to be released on parole this week.
:::
::: Mr Saunders stresses he has made no decision about seeking a judicial
::: review but is going to consider the possibility.
::: "I just think a man who has been disappointed in this way is entitled
::: to see whether he has got any legal redress," said Mr Saunders.
:::
::: Martin has told friends that he believes that the parole board turned
::: him down because of a probation officer's report.
::: He says the report criticised him for not showing remorse and for
::: "not living in the 21st Century".
:::
::: yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
::: hours later, if at all....
::: then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
::: defending his home :-/
::: I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie teh
::: Baseball Bat.
:::
::: FREE TONY MARTIN.
::
:: I don't remember all the details of the actual event as it happened, but
:: surely there is a difference between warning somebody off and killing them?
:
: Yes, and shooting a sixteen-year old _in the back_ can't possibly be
: right under any circumstances. Not to mention the fact firearms laws.
: Not to mention the fact that Mr Martin refuses to accept he has done
: anything wrong. Not to mention the fact that a five year sentence is
: astonishingly light for what was, without a doubt, deliberate taking of
: a life. Not to mention the fact that he will only serve 2/3 of that
: sentence anyway.

what about the fact that they had broken into his home?
I don't think he *has* done anything wrong.
he was in fear of his life, and acted accordingly.

http://www.tonymartinsupportgroup.org/

:
: Fair enough, from what I remember Mr Martin may well have had a
: personality disorder and possibly learning difficulties, (in which case
: prison may well not be the most appropriate place for him) but as he
: continues to believe that he has every right to kill fleeing intruders I
: would be inclined to say that he has got off extremely likely and may
: well in fact be dangerous. This isn't the US. Shooting at people is
: illegal, and killing them is illegal unless you can argue self-defence,
: which he can't - and even if he could, he still shouldn't have kept a
: gun by his bed _with the express purpose of shooting at people with it_.

I totally agree that guns are bad.
but what is a UK citizen *supposed* to do when confronted by 3 burglars?
police response times are a joke, even here in the city, and much worse out in
the sticks.
so whilst waiting an hour or two for the police to arrive, we are allowed to use
"reasonable force".
Bollocks to that. anyone breaking into my home will be hit hard from behind with
a baseball bat.

-- 
Steve Leyland
mhm32x16  Smeeter#35
flower: three 6 four 9 five 8 eight 9

  =^/\/\E0\/\/ /\/\E0\/\/ ARMY^=

When men speak ill of thee, live so as nobody may believe

======================================================================

"Warning to all:
Steve Leyland is a trolling twat of the highest order. Killfile the muppet now
and move on. Even the briefest of searches on his past UseNet posts will reveal
the truth. You have been warned.
*plonk*"

Bastard Bear, uk.rec.motorcycles
======================================================================

"It's a bigger shame that packs of idiots can't keep their profanities
and idiocies in groups where such is the norm, but instead have to go
crying for attention in groups that don't deal in heavy cross posting,
cascades, profanity, abject stupidity, and every other moronic thing
that Steve Leyland, Dean Humphries, and Eddie Bernard represent."

Mike Soja, alt.bad.clams

Meanwhile lurking by a stone in the mud, two eyes looked to see what I
was and then Steve Leyland spoke and this is what they said to me.......


>
>what about the fact that they had broken into his home?
>I don't think he *has* done anything wrong.
>he was in fear of his life, and acted accordingly.
>

Fear for his life? He was the only one with a gun.


>I totally agree that guns are bad.
>but what is a UK citizen *supposed* to do when confronted by 3 burglars?
>police response times are a joke, even here in the city, and much worse out in
>the sticks.
>so whilst waiting an hour or two for the police to arrive, we are allowed to
>use
>"reasonable force".
>Bollocks to that. anyone breaking into my home will be hit hard from
>behind with
>a baseball bat.
>

I'm not saying burgling is some great laugh, but killing someone dead in
defence of property, which is simply material, is crossing the line.


-- 

Izo

I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.
                - Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.

<big snip before it gets too long for me to reply to>

>>> I'm afraid that while the police service is so underfunded and
>>> ineffectual, citizens are forced to take the law into their own
>>> hands. and as they used to say *an englishman's home is his castle*.
>>
>> OK point taken.  However, as a newly estranged wife with two small
>> girls to look after and an ex husband who had made many enemies, I
>> was once awoken by probably two blokes trying to break in through
>> the patio doors.
>
> Yikes!

I was a little anxious.

>
>> I used to go
>> to bed with a large rolling pin by my bed after that in case they
>> should ever come back.  My intention was to wave it at them and
>> scream, never to attack them physically and I had two little girls
>> of 4 and 1 to defend.
>
> So you really wouldn't have wielded the rolling pin if they had
> attacked you or the kids?

If they had actually attacked, then yes, I'd have defended as best I could,
but that would have been self defence of persons, not hitting someone as
they retreated!  Mainly though, I'd have used it to look menacing with!

>
>> This Martin guy actually shot these lads in the back.......
>
> yes. Good.
> one less thieving scumbag on the planet.
> What amazes me is that the one who survived is suing Martin for
> damages, including *loss of earnings*, even though he'd never done an
> honest day's work in his life.

There are lot of that sort of scumbag on the earth, but we can't go around
shooting everyone in the dole queue!

Steve Leyland wrote:
> Hmmm...
> What *is* that strange light in teh night sky?
> A sekrit spy satellite snooping on me?
> Could it be teh new International Space Station?
> Naaah, it's just sophie's dummy spat into orbit!
>
>> In message <b0gg7p$p3mds$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda
>> <bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
>>> Steve Leyland wrote:
>>>> Jailed farmer Tony Martin is considering a High Court challenge to
>>>> the Parole Board's decision not to grant him early release from
>>>> prison. Martin's lawyer, James Saunders, says he will examine the
>>>> possibility of seeking a judicial review of the board's decision,
>>>> which was made on Thursday. Martin, jailed for shooting dead a
>>>> teenage burglar who broke into his farmhouse with an accomplice, is
>>>> said to be "extremely angry" at his failure to win early release.
>>>>
>>>> Martin, 58, of Emneth Hungate, Norfolk, is serving a five-year
>>>> sentence for the manslaughter of 16-year-old Fred Barras.
>>>> He is due to be freed in July after serving two-thirds of the
>>>> sentence but was hoping to be released on parole this week.
>>>>
>>>> Mr Saunders stresses he has made no decision about seeking a
>>>> judicial review but is going to consider the possibility.
>>>> "I just think a man who has been disappointed in this way is
>>>> entitled to see whether he has got any legal redress," said Mr
>>>> Saunders.
>>>>
>>>> Martin has told friends that he believes that the parole board
>>>> turned him down because of a probation officer's report.
>>>> He says the report criticised him for not showing remorse and for
>>>> "not living in the 21st Century".
>>>>
>>>> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
>>>> hours later, if at all....
>>>> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
>>>> defending his home :-/
>>>> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie
>>>> teh Baseball Bat.
>>>>
>>>> FREE TONY MARTIN.
>>>
>>> I don't remember all the details of the actual event as it
>>> happened, but surely there is a difference between warning somebody
>>> off and killing them?
>>
>> Yes, and shooting a sixteen-year old _in the back_ can't possibly be
>> right under any circumstances. Not to mention the fact firearms laws.
>> Not to mention the fact that Mr Martin refuses to accept he has done
>> anything wrong. Not to mention the fact that a five year sentence is
>> astonishingly light for what was, without a doubt, deliberate taking
>> of a life. Not to mention the fact that he will only serve 2/3 of
>> that sentence anyway.
>
> what about the fact that they had broken into his home?
> I don't think he *has* done anything wrong.
> he was in fear of his life, and acted accordingly.
>
> http://www.tonymartinsupportgroup.org/
>
>>
>> Fair enough, from what I remember Mr Martin may well have had a
>> personality disorder and possibly learning difficulties, (in which
>> case prison may well not be the most appropriate place for him) but
>> as he continues to believe that he has every right to kill fleeing
>> intruders I would be inclined to say that he has got off extremely
>> likely and may well in fact be dangerous. This isn't the US.
>> Shooting at people is illegal, and killing them is illegal unless
>> you can argue self-defence, which he can't - and even if he could,
>> he still shouldn't have kept a gun by his bed _with the express
>> purpose of shooting at people with it_.
>
> I totally agree that guns are bad.
> but what is a UK citizen *supposed* to do when confronted by 3
> burglars? police response times are a joke, even here in the city,
> and much worse out in the sticks.
> so whilst waiting an hour or two for the police to arrive, we are
> allowed to use "reasonable force".
> Bollocks to that. anyone breaking into my home will be hit hard from
> behind with a baseball bat.

Remind me NEVER to try and surprise you with coffee in bed.

How would anyone know how old a person is when that person is on the run?
When I was 16 years of age, I was 6 feet 4 inches and 210 pounds, same size
i was at 32 years of age. Nonetheless, I do not see where the age of the
person has much to do with this.  trust me one time: A 16 year old, even a
10 year, ( whatever age) can kill you just as dead as anyone 40 year old
trained hit man can kill you.

Mantu


"sophie" <sophieNOSPAMjunkmail@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Vc$WddGmTDL+EwK9@blueyonder.co.uk...
> In message <b0gg7p$p3mds$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda
> <bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
> >Steve Leyland wrote:
> >> Jailed farmer Tony Martin is considering a High Court challenge to
> >> the Parole Board's decision not to grant him early release from
> >> prison. Martin's lawyer, James Saunders, says he will examine the
> >> possibility of seeking a judicial review of the board's decision,
> >> which was made on Thursday. Martin, jailed for shooting dead a
> >> teenage burglar who broke into his farmhouse with an accomplice, is
> >> said to be "extremely angry" at his failure to win early release.
> >>
> >> Martin, 58, of Emneth Hungate, Norfolk, is serving a five-year
> >> sentence for the manslaughter of 16-year-old Fred Barras.
> >> He is due to be freed in July after serving two-thirds of the
> >> sentence but was hoping to be released on parole this week.
> >>
> >> Mr Saunders stresses he has made no decision about seeking a judicial
> >> review but is going to consider the possibility.
> >> "I just think a man who has been disappointed in this way is entitled
> >> to see whether he has got any legal redress," said Mr Saunders.
> >>
> >> Martin has told friends that he believes that the parole board turned
> >> him down because of a probation officer's report.
> >> He says the report criticised him for not showing remorse and for
> >> "not living in the 21st Century".
> >>
> >> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
> >> hours later, if at all....
> >> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
> >> defending his home :-/
> >> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie teh
> >> Baseball Bat.
> >>
> >> FREE TONY MARTIN.
> >
> >I don't remember all the details of the actual event as it happened, but
> >surely there is a difference between warning somebody off and killing
them?
>
> Yes, and shooting a sixteen-year old _in the back_ can't possibly be
> right under any circumstances. Not to mention the fact firearms laws.
> Not to mention the fact that Mr Martin refuses to accept he has done
> anything wrong. Not to mention the fact that a five year sentence is
> astonishingly light for what was, without a doubt, deliberate taking of
> a life. Not to mention the fact that he will only serve 2/3 of that
> sentence anyway.
>
> Fair enough, from what I remember Mr Martin may well have had a
> personality disorder and possibly learning difficulties, (in which case
> prison may well not be the most appropriate place for him) but as he
> continues to believe that he has every right to kill fleeing intruders I
> would be inclined to say that he has got off extremely likely and may
> well in fact be dangerous. This isn't the US. Shooting at people is
> illegal, and killing them is illegal unless you can argue self-defence,
> which he can't - and even if he could, he still shouldn't have kept a
> gun by his bed _with the express purpose of shooting at people with it_.
>
> --
> sophie
> mhm34x20

In message <%1BZ9.31828$wE.931489@twister.kc.rr.com>, mantu cain 
<mantu@kc.rr.com> burbled:
>How would anyone know how old a person is when that person is on the run?
>When I was 16 years of age, I was 6 feet 4 inches and 210 pounds, same size
>i was at 32 years of age. Nonetheless, I do not see where the age of the
>person has much to do with this.  trust me one time: A 16 year old, even a
>10 year, ( whatever age) can kill you just as dead as anyone 40 year old
>trained hit man can kill you.

not when they're unarmed and running away from a man with a shotgun they 
can't.

hth.


>
>Mantu
>
>
>"sophie" <sophieNOSPAMjunkmail@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:Vc$WddGmTDL+EwK9@blueyonder.co.uk...
>> In message <b0gg7p$p3mds$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda
>> <bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
>> >Steve Leyland wrote:
>> >> Jailed farmer Tony Martin is considering a High Court challenge to
>> >> the Parole Board's decision not to grant him early release from
>> >> prison. Martin's lawyer, James Saunders, says he will examine the
>> >> possibility of seeking a judicial review of the board's decision,
>> >> which was made on Thursday. Martin, jailed for shooting dead a
>> >> teenage burglar who broke into his farmhouse with an accomplice, is
>> >> said to be "extremely angry" at his failure to win early release.
>> >>
>> >> Martin, 58, of Emneth Hungate, Norfolk, is serving a five-year
>> >> sentence for the manslaughter of 16-year-old Fred Barras.
>> >> He is due to be freed in July after serving two-thirds of the
>> >> sentence but was hoping to be released on parole this week.
>> >>
>> >> Mr Saunders stresses he has made no decision about seeking a judicial
>> >> review but is going to consider the possibility.
>> >> "I just think a man who has been disappointed in this way is entitled
>> >> to see whether he has got any legal redress," said Mr Saunders.
>> >>
>> >> Martin has told friends that he believes that the parole board turned
>> >> him down because of a probation officer's report.
>> >> He says the report criticised him for not showing remorse and for
>> >> "not living in the 21st Century".
>> >>
>> >> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
>> >> hours later, if at all....
>> >> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
>> >> defending his home :-/
>> >> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie teh
>> >> Baseball Bat.
>> >>
>> >> FREE TONY MARTIN.
>> >
>> >I don't remember all the details of the actual event as it happened, but
>> >surely there is a difference between warning somebody off and killing
>them?
>>
>> Yes, and shooting a sixteen-year old _in the back_ can't possibly be
>> right under any circumstances. Not to mention the fact firearms laws.
>> Not to mention the fact that Mr Martin refuses to accept he has done
>> anything wrong. Not to mention the fact that a five year sentence is
>> astonishingly light for what was, without a doubt, deliberate taking of
>> a life. Not to mention the fact that he will only serve 2/3 of that
>> sentence anyway.
>>
>> Fair enough, from what I remember Mr Martin may well have had a
>> personality disorder and possibly learning difficulties, (in which case
>> prison may well not be the most appropriate place for him) but as he
>> continues to believe that he has every right to kill fleeing intruders I
>> would be inclined to say that he has got off extremely likely and may
>> well in fact be dangerous. This isn't the US. Shooting at people is
>> illegal, and killing them is illegal unless you can argue self-defence,
>> which he can't - and even if he could, he still shouldn't have kept a
>> gun by his bed _with the express purpose of shooting at people with it_.
>>
>> --
>> sophie
>> mhm34x20
>
>

-- 
sophie
mhm34x20

Your point is good.  And, I do not know all the details.
And I do not even own a gun, but I know I have covered many cases where an
so believed "unarmed" person killed an armed one.
Please read my post a "SMALL TOWN"
 But, in this rather long winded comparison, I mean to say, in your case the
teen was known to be unarmed after the fact.  The man that shot him with the
shotgun had no means to know if he was armed or not.  Your distaste of the
teen being shot in the back while running from the shooter, is in view of
the whole story: i.e., after all was said and done it is known the teen was
unarmed.  I do not think this is something the shooter could have know at
the time.  If I am wrong, please correct me.

Mantu


"sophie" <sophieNOSPAMjunkmail@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:eCP0aVJ9quN+EwLX@blueyonder.co.uk...
> In message <%1BZ9.31828$wE.931489@twister.kc.rr.com>, mantu cain
> <mantu@kc.rr.com> burbled:
> >How would anyone know how old a person is when that person is on the run?
> >When I was 16 years of age, I was 6 feet 4 inches and 210 pounds, same
size
> >i was at 32 years of age. Nonetheless, I do not see where the age of the
> >person has much to do with this.  trust me one time: A 16 year old, even
a
> >10 year, ( whatever age) can kill you just as dead as anyone 40 year old
> >trained hit man can kill you.
>
> not when they're unarmed and running away from a man with a shotgun they
> can't.
>
> hth.
>
>
> >
> >Mantu
> >
> >
> >"sophie" <sophieNOSPAMjunkmail@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:Vc$WddGmTDL+EwK9@blueyonder.co.uk...
> >> In message <b0gg7p$p3mds$1@ID-136915.news.dfncis.de>, Leda
> >> <bazfranklin@hotmail.com> burbled:
> >> >Steve Leyland wrote:
> >> >> Jailed farmer Tony Martin is considering a High Court challenge to
> >> >> the Parole Board's decision not to grant him early release from
> >> >> prison. Martin's lawyer, James Saunders, says he will examine the
> >> >> possibility of seeking a judicial review of the board's decision,
> >> >> which was made on Thursday. Martin, jailed for shooting dead a
> >> >> teenage burglar who broke into his farmhouse with an accomplice, is
> >> >> said to be "extremely angry" at his failure to win early release.
> >> >>
> >> >> Martin, 58, of Emneth Hungate, Norfolk, is serving a five-year
> >> >> sentence for the manslaughter of 16-year-old Fred Barras.
> >> >> He is due to be freed in July after serving two-thirds of the
> >> >> sentence but was hoping to be released on parole this week.
> >> >>
> >> >> Mr Saunders stresses he has made no decision about seeking a
judicial
> >> >> review but is going to consider the possibility.
> >> >> "I just think a man who has been disappointed in this way is
entitled
> >> >> to see whether he has got any legal redress," said Mr Saunders.
> >> >>
> >> >> Martin has told friends that he believes that the parole board
turned
> >> >> him down because of a probation officer's report.
> >> >> He says the report criticised him for not showing remorse and for
> >> >> "not living in the 21st Century".
> >> >>
> >> >> yay. the 21st century where one calls teh cops, and they arrive 2
> >> >> hours later, if at all....
> >> >> then the *judges* let off teh thieving scum and imprison a man for
> >> >> defending his home :-/
> >> >> I'll happily introduce any burglar who invades my home to Bertie teh
> >> >> Baseball Bat.
> >> >>
> >> >> FREE TONY MARTIN.
> >> >
> >> >I don't remember all the details of the actual event as it happened,
but
> >> >surely there is a difference between warning somebody off and killing
> >them?
> >>
> >> Yes, and shooting a sixteen-year old _in the back_ can't possibly be
> >> right under any circumstances. Not to mention the fact firearms laws.
> >> Not to mention the fact that Mr Martin refuses to accept he has done
> >> anything wrong. Not to mention the fact that a five year sentence is
> >> astonishingly light for what was, without a doubt, deliberate taking of
> >> a life. Not to mention the fact that he will only serve 2/3 of that
> >> sentence anyway.
> >>
> >> Fair enough, from what I remember Mr Martin may well have had a
> >> personality disorder and possibly learning difficulties, (in which case
> >> prison may well not be the most appropriate place for him) but as he
> >> continues to believe that he has every right to kill fleeing intruders
I
> >> would be inclined to say that he has got off extremely likely and may
> >> well in fact be dangerous. This isn't the US. Shooting at people is
> >> illegal, and killing them is illegal unless you can argue self-defence,
> >> which he can't - and even if he could, he still shouldn't have kept a
> >> gun by his bed _with the express purpose of shooting at people with
it_.
> >>
> >> --
> >> sophie
> >> mhm34x20
> >
> >
>
> --
> sophie
> mhm34x20

mantu cain wrote:
: Your point is good.  And, I do not know all the details.
: And I do not even own a gun, but I know I have covered many cases where an
: so believed "unarmed" person killed an armed one.
: Please read my post a "SMALL TOWN"
:  But, in this rather long winded comparison, I mean to say, in your case the
: teen was known to be unarmed after the fact.  The man that shot him with the
: shotgun had no means to know if he was armed or not.  Your distaste of the
: teen being shot in the back while running from the shooter, is in view of
: the whole story: i.e., after all was said and done it is known the teen was
: unarmed.  I do not think this is something the shooter could have know at
: the time.  If I am wrong, please correct me.


an old man even with a shotgun could be easily hurt by 3 youths, unarmed or not!

Sophie, you need to read Mantu's Small Town post in a.s.c.v, as its not
x-posted.
(I made the froup a while back so your server may not carry it yet, in which
case I will x-post it)

-- 
Steve Leyland
mhm32x16  Smeeter#35
flower: three 6 four 9 five 8 eight 9
Alcatroll Labs Inc collaborator (dept of bongwater maintenance)

  =^/\/\E0\/\/ /\/\E0\/\/ ARMY^=

"The Internet is running too slow. Could you reboot it please?"

======================================================================

"Warning to all:
Steve Leyland is a trolling twat of the highest order. Killfile the muppet now
and move on. Even the briefest of searches on his past UseNet posts will reveal
the truth. You have been warned.
*plonk*"

Bastard Bear, uk.rec.motorcycles
======================================================================

"It's a bigger shame that packs of idiots can't keep their profanities
and idiocies in groups where such is the norm, but instead have to go
crying for attention in groups that don't deal in heavy cross posting,
cascades, profanity, abject stupidity, and every other moronic thing
that Steve Leyland, Dean Humphries, and Eddie Bernard represent."

Mike Soja, alt.bad.clams