🚀 go-pugleaf

"Mark Addinall"

> >What "lie or half-truth" have I ever posted?  How would doing so cure any
of
> >us?  Mine, as well as everybodys motivation isnt attention, its to be
cured.
>
> I don't know what your agenda is.

I do.  Its to cure us.  Nothing more.

But the seemingly "no-one in the
> world" scenario you propose for the cuture of mycoplamas is clearly
> untrue.  Some of the fastidious mycoplasmas take more care to
> culture than other strains.  Having care does not
> make a task impossible, or technically difficult.

Cultering is a waste of time.  And not just in my opinion.  If you like you
can look on medline and see how many failures they experience in trying to
culture it, while knowing that its there the entire time.

>The preference
> given
> for DNA sequencing is based on time and money.  It is far easier
> to test for the presence in this way.  Being destructive, the
> test will not allow futher population dynamics observations
> as is with cultured pathogens.  Cultured pathogens also come in
> damn handy when testing new drugs, delivery systems,
> absorbtion and exretrion.

Im not disputing the benefits of a succusfull culture at all.  Not at all.
Its much more helpful than just a pcr test.  But not as reliable when one
simply wants to prove its presence and strain.  They have used serum from MS
victims, tested and achieved no culture, injected the serum into mice, and
then DNA proofed its transmission.  Its not hokum... thats just the way it
is sometimes.


>
> The transport mechanisms are not well defined at a molecular level,
> and to dat, no toxin has been isolated.  A good reason to have
> controlled, live culture.

There is no toxin. (Im assuming you meant toxin, and not the pathogen)   Its
the mycoplasms proclivity to use antigens of self as a disguise that sets
the entire autoimmune process in motion.


>
>
> Before I reply to this any futher.  Taking your word at face value,
> then would not this discussion be better served in one of the sci.*
> newsgroups?  That way some wandering practitioners can call us
> both mad, ot hopefully, be inclined to investigate with some more
> depth.  I would be more than happy to continue our conversation in a
> more appropriate newsgroup.  I can't devote a lot of time into
> doing so, as I have my own work to get on with.  I am sure
> that the readers of a support group are not terribly interested
> in Beowulf clustering, Petaflops, Markov chains, parrallel RDBMS
> techniques, extentions to BioPerl:: objects, BLAST and FASTA
> algorithms, load-sharing, proteomics, gene-transfer therapies,
> in silico predictions of absorbtion, distribution, metabolism and
> excretion properties of a drug, and a drug target.

Of course you are correct, but some are interested in where I am trying to
divert our research dollars too.  I think we are intentionaly over looking a
candidate that is of prime interest, and these kind folks here are the very
ones who have the most at stake in what i am about to do.  I cant think of a
more appropriate venu.  I know its a pain for some, thats why I decided to
take over the newsgroup by being put in peoples kill-files.  ;^)   (plus,
half of what you said went over my head)

>
> It fills volumes and annoys people.
>
> This seems to be a place to ask "How do I stop feeling ill?".
> "How do I take a holiday?".
>
> Support.  Not R&D.
>
> Pick one or more groups.  I am happy to read your collected research.

If someone could create an alt.support.mult-sclerosis.science (or research)
ng group that would be wonderfull.  I, at the moment, have no interest in
discussing other diseases other in regard to their relationship with MS.  If
someone even wanted to teach me how to create that group I would be more
than willing to do it myself.


 >> >You still haven't shown that
> >> >mycoplasmas can reliably be cultured.  You show labs requirements and
> >> >methods, but no valid support of success.
> >>
> >> For $28 you can get a mycoplasma culture grown anywhere.
> >> Most labs have a time getting rid of the stuff.
> >
> >Nope.  Go to a universities research library.
>
> Once or twice a week.
>
> >there are dozens of studies
> >showing that its nearly impossible to culture mycoplasmas from synovial
> >fluid... yet they are there, and everybody knows it.
>
> Painstaking is not nearly impossible.

Anything less than a 99% rate of success is a failure.  DNA is nearly
infallible compared to culturing.


> >> You mentioned in on of your earlier rants that you hate
> >> acadeamia?  Why is that?
> >>
> >> You also seem to be worried about a peer review?  Why is that?
> >
> >Publish or perish.  And you dont publish unless you have researched an
> >issue.  And you cant research an issue, (once out of the university
setting)
> >without funding.  And you get no funding unless your "research" suits
> >somebodys agenda and they are willing to pay you to prove their point.
> >Thats academia in this worlds pharmaceuticaly controlled scientific
> >environment.  Look how AIDs research has been taken over by a select few
> >acemics who are in the pockets of the pharms.  Its no accident.
>


> Such a limited view.  I have many friends at various Universities
> that are always more than willing to vet an idea of mine.
> (of course, I am genuilly brilliant ;-)
> None I know of are 'in the pocket' of anyone, and would likely
> to be most upset if you suggested they were.  Dunno what it
> is like over your neck of the woods, but in Australia scientists
> get paid crap.  And I spend a LOAD of time trying to figure out
> how to do research on the cheap.
>
> Being fortunate my 'lab' doesn't require a billion dollars to
> run.

Whether ones direction of inquiry and protocols are in agreement with those
that underwrite the research, little chance of innovative discovoeries are
bound to occur.  An undergrad has a greater chance of having a research
grant approved than a staff member or a grad student.  Ive been there.


> >> > In arthritis cases, where the
> >> >patient has a known mycoplasmal infection, most times no labs can
culture
> >> >anything.  That's the nature of the beast.  The stuff is oddly slow
> >growing
> >> >and highly resistant to being forced to do something it doesn't want
to
> >do.
> >> >It has its own time-table  No lab anywhere claims a good success
record
> >in
> >> >culturing mycoplasmas.  From synovial fluid some cases report zero
> >success
> >> >of growing it... even when its shown to be there with DNA testing over
> >and
> >> >over again.
> >
> >
> >> Utter crap.
> >> "Beast"?  "Stuff"?  "forced to do something IT doesn't want to do"?
> >> Is this another example of your scientific method?  Projecting
> >> a personality onto a bug?
> >
> >I think the personification of a pathogen was made by you.  Not I.
>
> I think not.  It usually represents a string of '1's and '0's to me.
> It is difficult to personify a molecular interaction at quantum level.

"nature of the beast" is an American anacronysm.  Not to be taken literally.
As I said, "want" was just a shortcut term to describe the previous
mentioned proclivities.

> >"beast"?
> >Maybe you arent familiar with American coloquealisms?  Youve never heard,
> >its the "nature of the beast" before?  LOL, no, I wasnt calling our
> >pathogen, "beasts".  "want" was simply a quick term for proclivity,
> >programming, and opportunity.
>
> As you say.

The wonderful gulf of language at work.


> >> Millions of labs will happily culture you any of the mycoplasmas for
> >> a small fee.  Why do you persist in telling lies in a support
> >> group?
> >
> >Obviously melodramatic statements arent mine alone.  Millions?
>
> True.  Gross overstatement.

;^)


> > And no, the
> >vast majority of labs cant even culture a simple mycoplasma from a serum
> >sample.  Even when its know to be in it.  Im suprised by your vehement
> >stance on this issue.  Its not easy.  The medium is very important to the
> >bug.
>
> Isn't that the case with every pathogen?
> Mycoplasmas are part of the human (and other species) bodies
> natural bio-sphere.  Some grow anywhere, others are more reluctant
> to be cultured in gereral media.


> >> Which mycoplamoids are you referring to?
> >> The bacteria with the smallest known genomes are found among
> >> members of the class Mollicutes. This class presently comprises
> >> the six eubacterial genera Acholeplasma, Anaeroplasma,
> >>  Asteroleplasma, Mycoplasma, Spiroplasma and Ureaplasma (however,
> >> the term mycoplasma has been frequently used to denote any
> >> species included in the class Mollicutes).
> >
> >Mollicutes.  There are six that we are concerned with.  The fermentans
> >strains, the chlamydia strains, and a few others.
>
> Ok.


> >> The common characteristics are the complete lack of a bacterial cell
> >> wall, osmotic fragility, colony shape and filterability through
> >> 450-nm pore diameter membrane filters. The relatively
> >> close phylogenetic relationship of these genera was measured
> >> by comparative sequence analysis of the 5S and 16S ribosomal
> >> RNA (rRNA). The rRNA sequence analyses also revealed that
> >>  the Mollicutes are not at the root of the bacterial
> >> phylogenetic tree, but rather developed by degenerate evolution
> >> from gram-positive bacteria with a low mol% G+C (guanine
> >> plus cytosine) content of DNA, the Lactobacillus group
> >> containing Lactobacillus, Bacillus, Streptococcus and two
> >> Chlostridium species. The Mollicutes lost during the process
> >> of evolution a substantial part of their genetic information.

> >Im not sure of the context in which you use the word "lost".  They didnt
> >"lose" anything.  The rid themselves of it.  They evolved beyond the need
> >for a cellular wall.  (they kind of have one... its difficult to
describe.)
> >Its an entirely unridged pathogen.  Much like how an octoppus the size of
> >your fist can squeeze into the opening of a coke bottle... thats how
these
> >pathogens are.

> That's a poor anology.  And I think lost is apt, until the
> phylogenisis of Mollicutes is better known.  It seems to me
> that the mutation from bacterial forms to mcyplasmas is
> a retrograde one.  I do not know what caused this evolutionary
> inversion, nor do I think does anyone.

Im not so sure, keeping in mind that vastly smaller genetic code, I would
think that bacteria evolved from mycoplasms, but the issue is one Im not up
on, nor one that i feel is important... in regard to us anyway.



> To attest a causitive effect from the presence is speculation
> in its' purest form.  You may as well state that E. Coli is the
> culprit behind MS, as all MS patients show E. Coli.
>
>
> 100% correlation.  No causation.

Ive posted dozens of studies showing vast differences in myco forms of
infections between MSers, controls, and neurological controls not of the
autoimmune form.



> >>This
> >> is reflected by significantly smaller genome sizes as low as 600
> >> kbp and extending to 2300 kbp as compared with 2500-5700
> >> kbp long genomes of their ancestor bacteria. The loss of
> >> coding capacity could probably be tolerated because of the
> >> parasitic life style of the Mollicutes.
> >
> >Im not sure if you are typing this, or if you are paraphrasing it.  They
> >didnt "lose" anything.  They evolved beyond the need for it.  They
developed
> >through selective pressure the advantage of not having one.  They dont
need
> >one.  They would be at a disadvantage if they had one.  So, "lost" is a
word
> >out of context.  They developed into a pathogen unrestricted by the need
for
> >it.  Its not as if they "lost" it.  But, I am pretty sure I may be
> >discussing a point thats not even on topic.  Semantics... lovely game.
If
> >so, my apologies.
>
> Lost is appropraite.  Some bottleneck had to have occured at a point
> in the past that a pathogen would lose its' more complex function
> and revert to a simple opportunistic form.  This may have happened as
> the pool vector species became threatened, or any number
> of other biological events.  This we may never know.
>

Cant argue with you there.  In our situation anyway, its a pointless
endevour.  Gram negative tetracyclines work great as antibacteriostatics.
Thats all I am interested in.

> You mention Anthrax in one of your posts.  Point in question.
> Anthrax is a wonderfully complex bug with its' changing morpholgy,
> and the complex series of toxic agents that allow it to work as it
> does.  This one followed the more usual progression of building
> complexity to better suit:
>
> - The target organism
> - Vector organisms
> - Extended life cycle
>
> Virus are a mish-mash.  The filovirus remain simple, quick
> and horrific.
> HIV/AIDS is a lot more complex and better suited to
> perpetuatingthe phenotype.
> Influenza just relies on a zoonotic shape shift twice a year.
>
> Pick one and study it to death.

 >> They have never been found
> >> as freely living organisms. In nature Mollicutes depend on a host
> >> cell, respectively on a host organism. For instance, Mycoplasmas
> >> and Ureaplasmas are parasites in different vertebrates, from
> >> which they obtain essential compounds such as fatty acids,
> >> amino acids, precursors for nucleic acid synthesis and cholesterol,
> >> a compound normally not found in bacteria. Only Acholeplasma
> >>  and Asteroleplasma do not require cholesterol for growth.
> >
> >Mycoplasms can live in or outside of a cell.  They can live and reproduce
> >within a cell and within free serum.  You are right.  They must acquire
> >their nutrition from a host, but not necessarily "within" a cell.
>
> Fine.


> >> Molecular Systematics is a good starting read for information
> >> regarding phylogenetics and mutations.
> >
> >ok?
>
> Yes.  Good book BTW.

Thanks.

> >> >But I think the point was about the doctors credentials and the
> >reliability
> >> >of his opinion...
> >>
> >> Shifting blame will not help.  I am addressing your posts.  Clearly
> >> false.
> >
> >"Shifting blame"?  No, the originol point was about the doctors
credentials.
> >In your addressment of my points... youve stated nothing that contradicts
a
> >thing I have said.

> I have.  Several times.  I can be more blunt, but this is not the
> appropriate forum for flame either.

I only flame when it suits a purpose, never in honest discource.

> >> >In anycase, even with a record as inscrutable as his, I
> >> >place no importance on any single persons opinion.  If he didn't exist
> >the
> >> >evidence wouldn't change.
> >>
> >>
> >> Are you a nutter or just a troll?
> >> A troll I think.
> >>
> >> Hint Rob/Steph/whoever.  You are not the brightest on the block by
> >> far.
> >> You miss most of the basics of mundane biochemical work,
> >> and seem to post wild fantasy as fact.
> >
> >I think youve been taking what youve been reading a little too close to
> >heart.  You find the most qualified expert on myoplasms that you like.
Give
> >me his name.  Ill contact him.  This is the sort of interaction I want.
>
> I can read well enough for myself.
>
> >Your education on the matter is stilted,
>
> I thought I was doing rather well ectually.

No, I was serious.  I want somebody to find me an unqualified unbiased
researcher who is beyond reproach by all parties involved.  Ive no problem
travelling.


> >so I am sure you will take your
> >experts opinion of mycoplasms as gospel.
>
> Whatever you think.  Mind reading another one of your
> skill set?

No, I think I am being misunderstood.  I really want the best expert we can
find.  If people have a problem with the authors of the papers I have cited
then I would love it if we could find one we can all agree upon.  Ive no
agenda outside of the truth.  If I am wrong, then I am wrong and no harm
done.  I will fly anywhere, I will stay anywhere, I will do anything
necessary to prove or disprove my point.  Its part of the scientific method.
I want nobodys health resting on a theory of mine.


> >> If you have anything to say, then take it to a university and publish.
> >> It will be read by others, your new peer group.  If they
> >> dismiss you as a lunatic, then so be it.  If they give
> >> you a prize then God's speed.  Failing that, your rants
> >> on a support group are not only mis-leading, but unwanted, from the
> >> posts I read around your missives.
> >
> >Ulcers were caused by stress.  Heart disease was caused by eggs.  Freud
> >wasnt mentally ill.  Polio was caused by potatos.  And prions were a
> >wildmans hallucination...  These peers you want me to educate, they
wouldnt
> >be these same pharm educated ones responcible for the former opinions
would
> >they be?
>
> The Earth is flat.
> There are canaluea on Mars.
> Liquid tetra-elthylene lead is as safe as houses.
>
> All science progresses.  So will medical and
> computational biology.  And yes, if you want to educate the
> 'establishment', then get into it.  Have a convincing argument,
> and a conviction for your passion.
>
> But first pick an appropriate audience.

> >> So when can we expect your abstract?
> >>
> >>
> >> I think you are full of it Rob/Steph/Whoever
> >> and if you do want to take your work seriously you
> >> can contact me at
> >>
> >> addinall@members.bioinformatics.org
> >>
> >> And I will have a look.
> >> Failing that, stop bothering the nice people.
> >>
> >> Mark Addinall.
> >
> >Mr. Mark,
>
> Just Mark will do for now.

Okay.  Just Mark, Ive no interest in anything other than getting to the
bottom of this.  PROVING mycoplasms play a role in our disease wont do a
thing for anybody unless it is a correct conclusion.  Thats my only
desire... to find the truth.


> >you are right about one thing.  These are nice people.  But
> >submitting work to peers whose reality is based on something divorced
from
> >reality is an effort in futility.
>
> Then it is futile posting here.  What do you hope to gain?  A whole
> bunch of nice but ill people will take up your banner, do a quick
> degree in biochemistry and carry the mcyo flag into battle for you?

No, but they already are questioning the legitimacy of the advertising arm
of the ABC's.  (referred to errantly as MS societys)


> If you feel that strongly about it, then do something constructive.
>
> >Ive no problem providing collected
> >research to prove my point however.  If that is what you like I will take
> >some time to compile it in a manner suitable for discussion.  I will
e-mail
> >you  in time about a rather LARGE file that will be delivered to you.
(its
> >hard to bother someone when you've taken over the newsgroup by being put
in
> >everyone's kill-file)
>
> Cut it into manageable chunks and I'll look at it.  Be glad to.
> Meanwhile, I have added aus.science in the headers as a jumping of
> point until you suggest a more appropriate forum.  Suggestions for
> bioinformatics
> searches are most welcome.
>
> I am convinced you are off topic in here, as would I be if I published
> all my research into a support group.  Being plonked into kill-files
> should give you a hint.  Start a new group.  Moderate it if you wish.
> I'll vote for you.
>
> "Oh, I'm feeling chipper today, lessee what my mates have
> to say......"
>
> "Oh goodie, there's Mark again giving us all a lecture on the
> function of breakdown laser induced spectrometry and the
> resultant context free Basyian language required to
> analyise the atomic wave functions from the
> induced plasma....(with XML extentions)"
>
> "Well, that made me feel better..."
>
> See how you are annoying people?
>
> >
> >
> >Rob/Stef/Whoever
> >(Its an "F", not "ph", my alternate persona hates that)
>
> Whatever.
>
> Mark Addinall.

She is a soccer player, and the only one I know of that played in a div 1
men's team.  Tread lightly.  ;^)


Rob