🚀 go-pugleaf

Wanna report this guy for his persistent spamming?

forward your request to have his service terminated per their AUP which
prohibits spaming with headers showing to his internet access and webhosting
companies:

abuse@webhosting.com

and

spam@frontiernet.net

"Bob Hirschfeld, JD" wrote:

<snip spam>

osote@techie.NOSPAMcom wrote:
 
> Wanna report this guy for his persistent spamming?

> "Bob Hirschfeld, JD" wrote:
> <snip spam>

ROTFLMAOPIMP!!! So, you DO know how to post, snip, and act properly on
usenet. 

Why don't you report Mssr. Hirschfeld to the FBI? That's what you
USUALLY do when someone irritates you, Miss Techie.

Moron.
 
peterd
--The original peterd. Accept no Substitutes.--
http://www.peterd.com

That makes TWO morons: "Techie" and "Peterd"

The quoted Christmas letter to the editor is appropriate
to any newsgroup infested by the likes of these two morons,
who appear to endorse the widespread, persistent denial
of holiday access which the letter to the editor describes.

That a potent remedy is available is incidental to the
First Amendment rights exercised by the letter's author.

http://www.how2.org/visnfors.html  contains a further
First Amendment exercise, no matter how anxious these
trolls are to suppress protected speech.


Peter F. DeMos <peterd@peterd.com> wrote in message
news:3A0C1672.646E8FEA@peterd.com...
> osote@techie.NOSPAMcom wrote:
>
> > Wanna report this guy for his persistent spamming?
>
> > "Bob Hirschfeld, JD" wrote:
> > <snip spam>
>
> ROTFLMAOPIMP!!! So, you DO know how to post, snip, and act properly on
> usenet.
>
> Why don't you report Mssr. Hirschfeld to the FBI? That's what you
> USUALLY do when someone irritates you, Miss Techie.
>
> Moron.
>
> peterd
> --The original peterd. Accept no Substitutes.--
> http://www.peterd.com

<osote@techie.com> wrote in message
news:3A0BEBFA.23F7834B@techie.NOSPAMcom...
> Wanna report this guy for his persistent spamming?

Email from persistent, recognized trolls who declare online their
willingness to
allege anything with which they politically disagree to constitute "spam"
is not going to be persuasive.

The quoted Christmas letter to the editor is appropriate
to any newsgroup infested by the likes of anonymous
troll osote@techie.com who appears to endorse the widespread,
persistent denial of holiday access which the letter to the editor
describes.

That a potent remedy, apparently feared or disliked
by <osote@techie.com>  is available, is incidental to the
First Amendment rights exercised by the letter's author.

http://www.how2.org/visnfors.html  contains a further
First Amendment exercise, no matter how anxious
trolls are to suppress protected speech.

Bob Hirschfeld, JD
http://www.how2.org/visnfors.com

(snip flame from <osote@techie.com>  )

"Bob Hirschfeld, JD" wrote:

> A month and a half until some unprepared
> noncustodial parents may have Christmas experiences like
> the one George told about last year:

And a month and a half until some uprepared custodial parent may get to explain
why the ncp really didn't show up, really didn't send gifts, and really doesn't
care.  I know there are ncp's that get a totally raw deal, I know there are
children lied to straight across the board *all* year, not just the holidays,
but the problem doesn't completely exist in father's who are denied visitation.

> <snip>
> > In this coming political year, and with the issues of the Cuban boy, one
> has
> > to wonder why is there so much concern with child support, and so little
> > with court-ordered-parenting-time.  Commercials are run telling fathers to
> > spend more time with their children, but no advice on how millions of
> > nonresidential fathers can do it.  Maybe the one question that should be
> > asked of those who want to lead this great country is, "When will children
> > have the right to not only a father's money, but also to a father's love?"

I agree entirely....my children deserve their father's love...so where is he?
Where is the advice for those parent's want nothing more than to have a
co-parent and the other refuses?  Those children who had a parent keeping them
from the other parent at least have the opportunity to grow up, seek out the
other parent and finally hear the truth.  What about the children that were
truly abandoned by the other parent?  I'd have more respect for what you seem to
be trying to accomplish if it addressed the rights of the children more
completely than just in how it is related to the father who is denied.  That
right to have two participatory parent's exists regardless of why one parent is
not in the picture.

Maureen

Maureen wrote: > I agree entirely....my children deserve their father's
love...so where is he?
> Where is the advice for those parent's want nothing more than to have a
> co-parent and the other refuses?  Those children who had a parent keeping
them
> from the other parent at least have the opportunity to grow up, seek out
the
> other parent and finally hear the truth.  What about the children that
were
> truly abandoned by the other parent?  I'd have more respect for what you
seem to
> be trying to accomplish if it addressed the rights of the children more
> completely than just in how it is related to the father who is denied.
That
> right to have two participatory parent's exists regardless of why one
parent is
> not in the picture.

Well said.

Tammy

~I know that I am intelligent because I know that I know nothing. ~Socrates


Maureen McKitterick <mckitty@pacificbytes.com> wrote in message
news:3A0C2B5C.9D0F005F@pacificbytes.com...
>
>
> "Bob Hirschfeld, JD" wrote:
>
> > A month and a half until some unprepared
> > noncustodial parents may have Christmas experiences like
> > the one George told about last year:
>
> And a month and a half until some uprepared custodial parent may get to
explain
> why the ncp really didn't show up, really didn't send gifts, and really
doesn't
> care.  I know there are ncp's that get a totally raw deal, I know there
are
> children lied to straight across the board *all* year, not just the
holidays,
> but the problem doesn't completely exist in father's who are denied
visitation.
>
> > <snip>
> > > In this coming political year, and with the issues of the Cuban boy,
one
> > has
> > > to wonder why is there so much concern with child support, and so
little
> > > with court-ordered-parenting-time.  Commercials are run telling
fathers to
> > > spend more time with their children, but no advice on how millions of
> > > nonresidential fathers can do it.  Maybe the one question that should
be
> > > asked of those who want to lead this great country is, "When will
children
> > > have the right to not only a father's money, but also to a father's
love?"
>
> I agree entirely....my children deserve their father's love...so where is
he?
> Where is the advice for those parent's want nothing more than to have a
> co-parent and the other refuses?  Those children who had a parent keeping
them
> from the other parent at least have the opportunity to grow up, seek out
the
> other parent and finally hear the truth.  What about the children that
were
> truly abandoned by the other parent?  I'd have more respect for what you
seem to
> be trying to accomplish if it addressed the rights of the children more
> completely than just in how it is related to the father who is denied.
That
> right to have two participatory parent's exists regardless of why one
parent is
> not in the picture.
>
> Maureen
>
>

"Bob Hirschfeld, JD" wrote:
> A month and a half until some unprepared
> noncustodial parents may have Christmas experiences like
> the one George told about last year:
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> George:
>
> Thanks, sadly, for telling it like it is for thousands
> of noncustodial parents on Christmas Day. Many of
> those disappointed parents may find
> Parenting Time Visitation Enforcement Software
> useful to never let this kind of denial go
> unchallenged in the future. See:
> On Saturday, December 25, 1999 9:52 AM, George wrote:
>
> > Dear Editor,
> > I would like to submit the following for consideration the "As I
See It"
> > column.
> >
> > It is Christmas.  The day is finally here.
> >
> > Today, the calls will begin, and door bells will ring.  Somewhere a
mother
> > tells her children to go to their rooms.  Then she goes to answer
the
> door.
> >
> > "Hello Frank, what do you want?" she says to the man standing there.
> >
> > "I'm here to pick up of the kids for Christmas."
> >
> > "I told you on the phone that they don't want to spend today with
you.
> They
> > want to go to my parents.  Are you deaf, or just dumb?"
> >
> > "Helen, the court order says I get them for Christmas."
> >
> > "You know the courts don't enforce that.  No one cares if you see
the
> kids.
> > So if you keep bothering me with this, I'm going to call the police
and
> say
> > you're threatening us.  You'll be in jail in a flash.  So go away!"
> >
> > "Well, I figured you would ignore the orders again, so I brought
the kids'
> > presents.  Can I see them?"
> >
> > "No, they're playing in their room.  Put the presents in the garage
and I
> > will tell them they're from you."
> >
> > "Can I call them?"
> >
> > "No, not this weekend, we'll be busy.  I'll call you if they want
to talk
> to
> > you."
> >
> > After seeing the father gone, the mother calls the children.
> >
> > "Was that Daddy?" says the 7-year-old.
> >
> > "Yes"
> >
> > "Will we see him today?"
> >
> > "No, he's busy.  He's spending Christmas with his girlfriend and
her kids.
> > I'm so sorry."
> >
> > "Did he bring us anything?"
> >
> > "No, he didn't.  He can't afford to buy you presents this year, but
I
> think
> > he's just spending his money on his girlfriend's kids.  He's not
even
> paying
> > his child support.  But don't worry, there are lots of gifts for
you, I
> even
> > think that Santa left some more around here.  I'm going to find
them, so
> > whys don't you go out and play while I look."
> >
> > As they leave, she opens a cabinet, takes out wrapping paper and
tape,
> than
> > goes to the garage.
> >
> > This story is true, though the names are different to protect the
> innocent,
> > and the not-so.  Some version of this event will be repeated
thousands of
> > times on this day.  Christmas, when we are suppose to be
celebrating the
> > wondrous birth of Jesus and his example of a relationship between a
Father
> > and his Son.
> >
> > But on this day, government studies show that 60% of fathers will be
> denied
> > their children for Christmas.  Many will have traveled thousands of
miles,
> > only to be turned away.
> >
> > Many will go to court, getting a hearing some time in the Spring.
They'll
> > spend thousands only to hear a judge tell them that Christmas is
past, so
> > there is nothing that can be done about it. They should get them
next
> > Christmas.
> >
> > Others will throw up their hands, saying that there's no use.  The
> heartache
> > every time they are denied is just too much.  So they just hope the
kids
> > will want to see them when they are grown.
> >
> > A few others will feel that they cannot live without their children
and
> > decide that life is not worth living anymore.
> >
> > In this coming political year, and with the issues of the Cuban
boy, one
> has
> > to wonder why is there so much concern with child support, and so
little
> > with court-ordered-parenting-time.  Commercials are run telling
fathers to
> > spend more time with their children, but no advice on how millions
of
> > nonresidential fathers can do it.  Maybe the one question that
should be
> > asked of those who want to lead this great country is, "When will
children
> > have the right to not only a father's money, but also to a father's
love?"


I'll prolly get a kick in the pants for this but oh well... I've had my kids
every Christmas Eve and Christmas morning... I've fed them thier Chistmas
dinner... It's tradition... 2 years ago I was trying to be fair and let
'dad' take them for Xmas Eve and the morning... At 9am my phone rang with my
daughter crying "can we please come home..." type of deal... I spoke to dad
and dad had said "we said 11am and no earlier"  OK I'm sorry it's
Christmas... Supposed to be a day of celebration not a day to hear your kids
crying... I went over anyways... They hadn't even opened thier gifts... They
were disappointed because they didn't get to church and everything was
different to them even tho I had tried to break them in/warn them that dad
was an Athiest and didn't go to church etc (dad doesn't go for
traditions)... The response I got from the eldest was 'If he's Athiest why
does he celebrate Jesus' birth?!?!?!'  Good damn question... Couldn't answer
and dad refused to answer... The year before that we did 'our' thing and Dad
came over at 1pm and got them had them back home by 5pm... Well here it is
it's his 'turn' to have the kids for Chistmas and ya know what?!?!?!  The
kids don't want to go and ya know what even MORE???  I'm not letting them...
I've told them they DO have to go 'visit' on Christmas day but that they
don't have to stay... He told them since it's 'his weekend' anyways he's not
bringing them home... BIG MISTAKE... Ususally my daughter wont go with him
(like this weekend) my son goes normally but he already told me he's
canceling that weekend if dad wont bring him home early enough Christmas
Eve...

OK I do feel bad for your 'George' and I don't think it's RIGHT that the NCP
(which ISNT always 'dad') doesn't get to see thier kids on Christmas... Most
of the families I know DO get to spend half Christmas Day with BOTH mom and
dad... 60% is a heck of alot more then I could actually believe... I'd also
be willing to bet in that 60 % there are alot of parents that just DONT WANT
to see thier kids or HAVEN'T ever seen thier kids by thier OWN choice...
'George's' Wife must have been one selfish bitch to do that to her own
children... I think I feel more sorry for the kids then 'George'

Anyways that's MY two cents worth... Burn me LOL

TMO,
Kim :))

Maureen McKitterick <mckitty@pacificbytes.com> wrote in
message news:3A0C2B5C.9D0F005F@pacificbytes.com...
<snip>
> And a month and a half until some uprepared custodial parent may get to
explain
> why the ncp really didn't show up, really didn't send gifts, and really
doesn't
> care.  I know there are ncp's that get a totally raw deal, I know there
are
> children lied to straight across the board *all* year, not just the
holidays,
> but the problem doesn't completely exist in father's who are denied
visitation.

Nor are there any panaceas for this multifaceted problem.

> > > nonresidential fathers can do it.  Maybe the one question that should
be
> > > asked of those who want to lead this great country is, "When will
children
> > > have the right to not only a father's money, but also to a father's
love?"
>
> I agree entirely....my children deserve their father's love...so where is
he?

I have spent the past 23 years helping the many fathers who do care, and who
persist in fighting access denial, but I am also aware that some fathers are
so emotionally hurt that they shut the problem out, and that a tiny minority
of men, and comparable numbers of women, are unsuited for parenthood.

Perhaps, for your children's sake, you should bear the potential rejection
and reach out once more to their father in a no-strings,
finance-independent,
effort to resume the contact which is the second type of support he is
obliged to provide them.


> Where is the advice for those parent's want nothing more than to have a
> co-parent and the other refuses?

The National Fatherhood Initiative, Promise Keepers and the like serve
the need of motivating such minority of disaffected fathers.

Other organizations, such as the National Congress for Fathers and Children
(NCFC) http://www.ncfc.net  1-800-SEE-DEADS serve the needs of the great
majority of divorced/separated/never-married fathers who actively seek to
preserve
their own father-child relationship.

> Those children who had a parent keeping them
> from the other parent at least have the opportunity to grow up, seek out
the
> other parent and finally hear the truth.

Not always. Serious parental alienation by a custodial parent is sometimes
fatal to the later formation of mature parent-child bonds.


> What about the children that were
> truly abandoned by the other parent?  I'd have more respect for what you
seem to
> be trying to accomplish if it addressed the rights of the children more
> completely than just in how it is related to the father who is denied.
That
> right to have two participatory parent's exists regardless of why one
parent is
> not in the picture.
> Maureen

Your partial lack of respect is noted; but like a triage physician, one
sometimes
has to seek out the still viable injured persons when there is no time
nor resource to pursue those who are beyond saving. The Visitation
Enforcement
Software against which several trolls railed under this thread, cannot save
all
obstructed relationships. But if just one reader here benefits from
learning of the existence of a method that works when others have failed,
it will have been worthwhile to mention http://www.how2.org/visnfors.html

--Bob Hirschfeld, JD   Legal Educator and Strategist
http://www.nolawer.com

Tammy Fitzpatrick <tfitzp@calweb.com> wrote in message
news:3a0c2e85_2@news3.calweb.com...
<snip>
> Maureen wrote: >
> >That  right to have two participatory parent's exists regardless of why
one
> > parent is not in the picture.
>
> Well said.
>
> Tammy

Yes, Tammy, well said. What can custodial parents persistently do to
facilitate the child's right to two participatory parents? Have you
exhausted
all possibilites?

Bob Hirschfeld, JD  Legal Educator and Strategist
http://www.wizardlaw.com

"Bob Hirschfeld, JD" wrote:

> Maureen McKitterick <mckitty@pacificbytes.com> wrote in
> message news:3A0C2B5C.9D0F005F@pacificbytes.com...
> <snip>
> > And a month and a half until some uprepared custodial parent may get to
> explain
> > why the ncp really didn't show up, really didn't send gifts, and really
> doesn't
> > care.  I know there are ncp's that get a totally raw deal, I know there
> are
> > children lied to straight across the board *all* year, not just the
> holidays,
> > but the problem doesn't completely exist in father's who are denied
> visitation.
>
> Nor are there any panaceas for this multifaceted problem.

There isn't...but to present a letter as you did, while not denying it's
validity, does leave one with the impression that parental alienation occurs
mainly with forethought and intention on the part of the cp.

>
> > > > nonresidential fathers can do it.  Maybe the one question that should
> be
> > > > asked of those who want to lead this great country is, "When will
> children
> > > > have the right to not only a father's money, but also to a father's
> love?"
> >
> > I agree entirely....my children deserve their father's love...so where is
> he?
>
> I have spent the past 23 years helping the many fathers who do care, and who
> persist in fighting access denial, but I am also aware that some fathers are
> so emotionally hurt that they shut the problem out,

so is that to say that cp's who are also so emotionally hurt they shut the
problem (ncp) out is a valid reason for their behaviour?

> and that a tiny minority
> of men, and comparable numbers of women, are unsuited for parenthood.

I agree, although I would think the number was higher than a tiny minority...on
both sides of the gender fence.

> Perhaps, for your children's sake, you should bear the potential rejection
> and reach out once more to their father in a no-strings,
> finance-independent,
> effort to resume the contact which is the second type of support he is
> obliged to provide them.

LOL....sorry...I've virtually eliminated any financial obligation he has,
including paying a set number of cs payments *for* him and going to court on his
behalf so the state would see fit to excuse themselves from automatically going
after him for it.  I've enabled his relationship to the point where it has at
times stretched my resources beyond their limits.  And I've been flamed on here
as well as the cs ng for my position on cs collection.  The fact is...I have
five children to support and raise into contributing members of this society.  I
have much better and more productive things to do with my time than chase after
his measly $300/mo. I can provide triple-fold whatever he can monetarily for
them, what I can't provide is what they get from having a father..even a less
than perfect one.

> > Where is the advice for those parent's want nothing more than to have a
> > co-parent and the other refuses?
>
> The National Fatherhood Initiative, Promise Keepers and the like serve
> the need of motivating such minority of disaffected fathers.
>
> Other organizations, such as the National Congress for Fathers and Children
> (NCFC) http://www.ncfc.net  1-800-SEE-DEADS serve the needs of the great
> majority of divorced/separated/never-married fathers who actively seek to
> preserve
> their own father-child relationship.
>
> > Those children who had a parent keeping them
> > from the other parent at least have the opportunity to grow up, seek out
> the
> > other parent and finally hear the truth.
>
> Not always. Serious parental alienation by a custodial parent is sometimes
> fatal to the later formation of mature parent-child bonds.

Yes..I understand this, but the possibility still remains none-the-less.

> > What about the children that were
> > truly abandoned by the other parent?  I'd have more respect for what you
> seem to
> > be trying to accomplish if it addressed the rights of the children more
> > completely than just in how it is related to the father who is denied.
> That
> > right to have two participatory parent's exists regardless of why one
> parent is
> > not in the picture.
> > Maureen
>
> Your partial lack of respect is noted;

limited respect is not the same as disrespect.

> but like a triage physician, one
> sometimes
> has to seek out the still viable injured persons when there is no time
> nor resource to pursue those who are beyond saving.

The issue I had..and still wonder about...is how many father's on this ng, or
mother's for that matter who are being denied visitation.  It is my impression
that the majority (by a landslide) of participants in this group are dealing far
more often with refused visitation rather than denied.  The even perceived need
of your product/service whatever is truly a slap in the face to those of us
struggling everyday to maintain that 'open-door' between our children and their
other parent without the help or assistance of that other parent, especially
when you claim this is about a child's right to both parents, and our side of
the coin is not represented.  I understand that you are focused on one aspect of
the issue, but should you not also focus your postings to the group(s) you are
trying to assist?

Maureen

"Bob Hirschfeld, JD" wrote:

> Tammy Fitzpatrick <tfitzp@calweb.com> wrote in message
> news:3a0c2e85_2@news3.calweb.com...
> <snip>
> > Maureen wrote: >
> > >That  right to have two participatory parent's exists regardless of why
> one
> > > parent is not in the picture.
> >
> > Well said.
> >
> > Tammy
>
> Yes, Tammy, well said. What can custodial parents persistently do to
> facilitate the child's right to two participatory parents? Have you
> exhausted
> all possibilites?
>

Well...I suppose I *could* re-marry him....: )

Maureen

"Bob Hirschfeld, JD" wrote:

> That makes TWO morons: "Techie" and "Peterd"
>
> The quoted Christmas letter to the editor is appropriate
> to any newsgroup infested by the likes of these two morons,
> who appear to endorse the widespread, persistent denial
> of holiday access which the letter to the editor describes.

I said I felt sorry for the children and fathers described in your letter.
I just feel sorrier for any potential customers you may glean from your
persistent spam as I suspect that any information you, as a disbarred
lawyer, have for sale is not worth in value what youwill charge for it.  I
hate to see anyone, especially parasitic lawyers that can't make it in the
real world, feed off the grief and rage of divorce and desertion families
suffer and try to capitalize on it online.

>
>
> That a potent remedy is available is incidental to the
> First Amendment rights exercised by the letter's author.
>
> http://www.how2.org/visnfors.html  contains a further
> First Amendment exercise, no matter how anxious these
> trolls are to suppress protected speech.

"As a lawyer, you suck.  Violations of contracts, your various ISP's
(internet service provider) AUP's (acceptable use policy), are NOT protected
speech under the constitution.  So STOP spamming us!!!

"Bob Hirschfeld, JD" wrote:

> <osote@techie.com> wrote in message
> news:3A0BEBFA.23F7834B@techie.NOSPAMcom...
> > Wanna report this guy for his persistent spamming?
>
> Email from persistent, recognized trolls who declare online their
> willingness to
> allege anything with which they politically disagree to constitute "spam"
> is not going to be persuasive.

I'm not a troll.  I've been on usenet for a long time, anyone who doubts my
beliefs or situation as a single mother may feel free to look up my posting
history on deja.com.  I hate spammers though.  Especially spammers who feed
off of children and their mothers and fathers who want to be with them.
Offering advice and support and information and opinions online is great.
Crossposting to every newsgroup imaginable trying to sell hokey legal advice
from a disbarred lawyer is    SPAM .

>
>
> The quoted Christmas letter to the editor is appropriate
> to any newsgroup infested by the likes of anonymous
> troll osote@techie.com who appears to endorse the widespread,
> persistent denial of holiday access which the letter to the editor
> describes.
>

I don't endorse denial of visitation at all as my personal history
testifies.  For FREE help to represent yourself in custody violation matters
go to http://www.nolo.com

>
> That a potent remedy, apparently feared or disliked
> by <osote@techie.com>  is available, is incidental to the
> First Amendment rights exercised by the letter's author.
>
> <snip further SPAM!> contains a further
> First Amendment exercise, no matter how anxious
> trolls are to suppress protected speech.

SPAM is not protected free speech, it's a violation of his ISP's AUP and
cause for losing his internet access.  He already lost his right to be a
lawyer for his refusal to play by the rules, looks like he's gonna lose his
internet access and webhosting too.  Is that the kind of lawyer you'd trust
with your money?

>
>
> Bob Hirschfeld, JD

> (snip flame from <osote@techie.com>  )

flame??? oh, honey.  you don't know jack.

Kim wrote:

> I'll prolly get a kick in the pants for this but oh well...

No kick from me, I can totally relate, unfortunately so can many custodial
parents.

> I've had my kids
> every Christmas Eve and Christmas morning... I've fed them thier Chistmas
> dinner... It's tradition... 2 years ago I was trying to be fair and let
> 'dad' take them for Xmas Eve and the morning... At 9am my phone rang with my
> daughter crying "can we please come home..." type of deal... I spoke to dad
> and dad had said "we said 11am and no earlier"  OK I'm sorry it's
> Christmas... Supposed to be a day of celebration not a day to hear your kids
> crying... I went over anyways... They hadn't even opened thier gifts... They
> were disappointed because they didn't get to church and everything was
> different to them even tho I had tried to break them in/warn them that dad
> was an Athiest and didn't go to church etc (dad doesn't go for
> traditions)... The response I got from the eldest was 'If he's Athiest why
> does he celebrate Jesus' birth?!?!?!'  Good damn question... Couldn't answer
> and dad refused to answer...

I'm agnostic (I think no one knows for sure who God is or whether there is a god
or many gods and godesses or what) but I celebrate American holidays as a
tradition, not for religious reasons.

> The year before that we did 'our' thing and Dad
> came over at 1pm and got them had them back home by 5pm...

Better get that plan in writing.  What does your divorce decree say about
holiday visitation or weekend visitation?

> Well here it is
> it's his 'turn' to have the kids for Chistmas and ya know what?!?!?!  The
> kids don't want to go and ya know what even MORE???  I'm not letting them...

Good for you.

>
> I've told them they DO have to go 'visit' on Christmas day but that they
> don't have to stay... He told them since it's 'his weekend' anyways he's not
> bringing them home...

Typical control freak. Cares more about his "rights" than his "responsibility"
or his kids.

> BIG MISTAKE... Ususally my daughter wont go with him
> (like this weekend) my son goes normally but he already told me he's
> canceling that weekend if dad wont bring him home early enough Christmas
> Eve...
>

How old are your kids again?

>
> OK I do feel bad for your 'George' and I don't think it's RIGHT that the NCP
> (which ISNT always 'dad') doesn't get to see thier kids on Christmas... Most
> of the families I know DO get to spend half Christmas Day with BOTH mom and
> dad... 60% is a heck of alot more then I could actually believe... I'd also
> be willing to bet in that 60 % there are alot of parents that just DONT WANT
> to see thier kids or HAVEN'T ever seen thier kids by thier OWN choice...

I seriously question this shyster's statistics also.  I'm the one here who
doesn't have any fathers around in the whole family so the idea of denying
visitation is hard to comprehend since I never had the problem until now and my
son is 13.  His father abandoned us just like my father did and all my uncles
did.  And now my son doesn't WANT to know his father now that his father took
the time and trouble to meet him and I'm not making him either.

>
> 'George's' Wife must have been one selfish bitch to do that to her own
> children... I think I feel more sorry for the kids then 'George'
>
> Anyways that's MY two cents worth... Burn me LOL
>
> TMO,
> Kim :))

He probably won't flame you, worse he'll try to sell you something!

Lorian asked and commented:

*snipped a WHOLE bunch... SUE ME! hehehehe*

>Better get that plan in writing.  What does your >divorce decree say about
>holiday visitation or weekend visitation?

Divorce decree says visitation is at 'my discretion'... I've never denied
him access and WONT do it.. he has a free reign when it comes to visiting
his children.... he CHOSE every second weekend... he also chose one week in
July and one in August (which this year he didn't bother with)... He has
been told on several occasions that he can call at anytime to speak with the
kids, come up after school WHATEVER... I even told him to bring his gal pal
with him (she's a sweety in fact -- she'll wake up soon LOL or live in dream
land for the rest of her life LOL).. There is NO hostility involved... I
gave him carte blanche when it came to visitation...

>How old are your kids again?

My son is 13 (14 next month *sob*) and my daughter is 9

>He probably won't flame you, worse he'll try to sell >you something!

LOL I'm not buying *grin*

Kim :)
Taking off her fire resistant suit LOL

Kim wrote:

> "Bob Hirschfeld, JD" wrote:
> > A month and a half until some unprepared
> > noncustodial parents may have Christmas experiences like
> > the one George told about last year:
> > ------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > George:
> >
> > Thanks, sadly, for telling it like it is for thousands
> > of noncustodial parents on Christmas Day. Many of
> > those disappointed parents may find
> > Parenting Time Visitation Enforcement Software
> > useful to never let this kind of denial go
> > unchallenged in the future. See:
> > On Saturday, December 25, 1999 9:52 AM, George wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Editor,
> > > I would like to submit the following for consideration the "As I
> See It"
> > > column.
> > >
> > > It is Christmas.  The day is finally here.
> > >
> > > Today, the calls will begin, and door bells will ring.  Somewhere a
> mother
> > > tells her children to go to their rooms.  Then she goes to answer
> the
> > door.
> > >
> > > "Hello Frank, what do you want?" she says to the man standing there.
> > >
> > > "I'm here to pick up of the kids for Christmas."
> > >
> > > "I told you on the phone that they don't want to spend today with
> you.
> > They
> > > want to go to my parents.  Are you deaf, or just dumb?"
> > >
> > > "Helen, the court order says I get them for Christmas."
> > >
> > > "You know the courts don't enforce that.  No one cares if you see
> the
> > kids.
> > > So if you keep bothering me with this, I'm going to call the police
> and
> > say
> > > you're threatening us.  You'll be in jail in a flash.  So go away!"
> > >
> > > "Well, I figured you would ignore the orders again, so I brought
> the kids'
> > > presents.  Can I see them?"
> > >
> > > "No, they're playing in their room.  Put the presents in the garage
> and I
> > > will tell them they're from you."
> > >
> > > "Can I call them?"
> > >
> > > "No, not this weekend, we'll be busy.  I'll call you if they want
> to talk
> > to
> > > you."
> > >
> > > After seeing the father gone, the mother calls the children.
> > >
> > > "Was that Daddy?" says the 7-year-old.
> > >
> > > "Yes"
> > >
> > > "Will we see him today?"
> > >
> > > "No, he's busy.  He's spending Christmas with his girlfriend and
> her kids.
> > > I'm so sorry."
> > >
> > > "Did he bring us anything?"
> > >
> > > "No, he didn't.  He can't afford to buy you presents this year, but
> I
> > think
> > > he's just spending his money on his girlfriend's kids.  He's not
> even
> > paying
> > > his child support.  But don't worry, there are lots of gifts for
> you, I
> > even
> > > think that Santa left some more around here.  I'm going to find
> them, so
> > > whys don't you go out and play while I look."
> > >
> > > As they leave, she opens a cabinet, takes out wrapping paper and
> tape,
> > than
> > > goes to the garage.
> > >
> > > This story is true, though the names are different to protect the
> > innocent,
> > > and the not-so.  Some version of this event will be repeated
> thousands of
> > > times on this day.  Christmas, when we are suppose to be
> celebrating the
> > > wondrous birth of Jesus and his example of a relationship between a
> Father
> > > and his Son.
> > >
> > > But on this day, government studies show that 60% of fathers will be
> > denied
> > > their children for Christmas.  Many will have traveled thousands of
> miles,
> > > only to be turned away.
> > >
> > > Many will go to court, getting a hearing some time in the Spring.
> They'll
> > > spend thousands only to hear a judge tell them that Christmas is
> past, so
> > > there is nothing that can be done about it. They should get them
> next
> > > Christmas.
> > >
> > > Others will throw up their hands, saying that there's no use.  The
> > heartache
> > > every time they are denied is just too much.  So they just hope the
> kids
> > > will want to see them when they are grown.
> > >
> > > A few others will feel that they cannot live without their children
> and
> > > decide that life is not worth living anymore.
> > >
> > > In this coming political year, and with the issues of the Cuban
> boy, one
> > has
> > > to wonder why is there so much concern with child support, and so
> little
> > > with court-ordered-parenting-time.  Commercials are run telling
> fathers to
> > > spend more time with their children, but no advice on how millions
> of
> > > nonresidential fathers can do it.  Maybe the one question that
> should be
> > > asked of those who want to lead this great country is, "When will
> children
> > > have the right to not only a father's money, but also to a father's
> love?"
>
> I'll prolly get a kick in the pants for this but oh well... I've had my kids
> every Christmas Eve and Christmas morning... I've fed them thier Chistmas
> dinner... It's tradition... 2 years ago I was trying to be fair and let
> 'dad' take them for Xmas Eve and the morning... At 9am my phone rang with my
> daughter crying "can we please come home..." type of deal... I spoke to dad
> and dad had said "we said 11am and no earlier"  OK I'm sorry it's
> Christmas... Supposed to be a day of celebration not a day to hear your kids
> crying... I went over anyways... They hadn't even opened thier gifts... They
> were disappointed because they didn't get to church and everything was
> different to them even tho I had tried to break them in/warn them that dad
> was an Athiest and didn't go to church etc (dad doesn't go for
> traditions)... The response I got from the eldest was 'If he's Athiest why
> does he celebrate Jesus' birth?!?!?!'  Good damn question... Couldn't answer
> and dad refused to answer... The year before that we did 'our' thing and Dad
> came over at 1pm and got them had them back home by 5pm... Well here it is
> it's his 'turn' to have the kids for Chistmas and ya know what?!?!?!  The
> kids don't want to go and ya know what even MORE???  I'm not letting them...
> I've told them they DO have to go 'visit' on Christmas day but that they
> don't have to stay... He told them since it's 'his weekend' anyways he's not
> bringing them home... BIG MISTAKE... Ususally my daughter wont go with him
> (like this weekend) my son goes normally but he already told me he's
> canceling that weekend if dad wont bring him home early enough Christmas
> Eve...
>
> OK I do feel bad for your 'George' and I don't think it's RIGHT that the NCP
> (which ISNT always 'dad') doesn't get to see thier kids on Christmas... Most
> of the families I know DO get to spend half Christmas Day with BOTH mom and
> dad... 60% is a heck of alot more then I could actually believe... I'd also
> be willing to bet in that 60 % there are alot of parents that just DONT WANT
> to see thier kids or HAVEN'T ever seen thier kids by thier OWN choice...
> 'George's' Wife must have been one selfish bitch to do that to her own
> children... I think I feel more sorry for the kids then 'George'
>
> Anyways that's MY two cents worth... Burn me LOL
>
> TMO,
> Kim :))

Kim,
why don't you and your children celebrate Christmas on another day?  The actual
day of Christ's birth isn't Dec. 25th anyway, and if he is going to try and hang
y'all on this point and be a spoiler,  do an end run and have Christmas for
yourselves.  Church will understand, and it isn't in the kids or your power to
make him celebrate like you do anyway.  The kids are going to have to understand
and deal with the "mom's way/dad's way" split anyway, this is just one of a
number adjustments y'all have to accommodate.

This is one of those battles that can disappear when you just quit fighting it.
It isn't fair that you will have to celebrate Christmas a few days early, (with
all your family if you can get everyone interested), but does it really matter
when the kids can get some peace instead of all the tension?  We both know he is
enjoying jerking your chain.... see what happens when you simply refuse to
acknowledge the chain at all.

One has to figure out what will work sometimes, not what is fair or even our own
wish.

Pat

Maureen McKitterick wrote:

> "Bob Hirschfeld, JD" wrote:
>
> > A month and a half until some unprepared
> > noncustodial parents may have Christmas experiences like
> > the one George told about last year:
>
> And a month and a half until some uprepared custodial parent may get to explain
> why the ncp really didn't show up, really didn't send gifts, and really doesn't
> care.  I know there are ncp's that get a totally raw deal, I know there are
> children lied to straight across the board *all* year, not just the holidays,
> but the problem doesn't completely exist in father's who are denied visitation.
>
> > <snip>
> > > In this coming political year, and with the issues of the Cuban boy, one
> > has
> > > to wonder why is there so much concern with child support, and so little
> > > with court-ordered-parenting-time.  Commercials are run telling fathers to
> > > spend more time with their children, but no advice on how millions of
> > > nonresidential fathers can do it.  Maybe the one question that should be
> > > asked of those who want to lead this great country is, "When will children
> > > have the right to not only a father's money, but also to a father's love?"
>
> I agree entirely....my children deserve their father's love...so where is he?
> Where is the advice for those parent's want nothing more than to have a
> co-parent and the other refuses?  Those children who had a parent keeping them
> from the other parent at least have the opportunity to grow up, seek out the
> other parent and finally hear the truth.  What about the children that were
> truly abandoned by the other parent?  I'd have more respect for what you seem to
> be trying to accomplish if it addressed the rights of the children more
> completely than just in how it is related to the father who is denied.  That
> right to have two participatory parent's exists regardless of why one parent is
> not in the picture.
>
> Maureen

Bingo Maureen.

It is CHILDREN'S RIGHTS not FATHERS (or MOTHERS) rights.  Get it straight.

Pat

"Bob Hirschfeld, JD" wrote:

> Maureen McKitterick <mckitty@pacificbytes.com> wrote in
> message news:3A0C2B5C.9D0F005F@pacificbytes.com...
> <snip>
> > And a month and a half until some uprepared custodial parent may get to
> explain
> > why the ncp really didn't show up, really didn't send gifts, and really
> doesn't
> > care.  I know there are ncp's that get a totally raw deal, I know there
> are
> > children lied to straight across the board *all* year, not just the
> holidays,
> > but the problem doesn't completely exist in father's who are denied
> visitation.
>
> Nor are there any panaceas for this multifaceted problem.
>
> > > > nonresidential fathers can do it.  Maybe the one question that should
> be
> > > > asked of those who want to lead this great country is, "When will
> children
> > > > have the right to not only a father's money, but also to a father's
> love?"
> >
> > I agree entirely....my children deserve their father's love...so where is
> he?
>
> I have spent the past 23 years helping the many fathers who do care, and who
> persist in fighting access denial, but I am also aware that some fathers are
> so emotionally hurt that they shut the problem out,

Bull.  While that does occur, there are waaaaay to many men not showing up for
the minimum.  I, for one, can't imagine anything that would stop me from staying
in my child's life.  I don't care what the courts, the cp, or anyone says.  Many
of the men on this group have proved that it is possible to make the connection
stick if the will is there.

Is it your premise that men are somehow less emotionally capable and cannot
stand up and fight for their children like any other ncp should, would, can?

> --Bob Hirschfeld, JD   Legal Educator and Strategist
> http://www.nolawer.com

This guy has found a sacred cow and is trying to get milk out of it.

Pat

On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:00:55 -0800, Maureen McKitterick
<mckitty@pacificbytes.com> wrote, among other things:


>> Yes, Tammy, well said. What can custodial parents persistently do to
>> facilitate the child's right to two participatory parents? Have you
>> exhausted
>> all possibilites?
>>
>
>Well...I suppose I *could* re-marry him....: )
>
>Maureen


LOL!

I don't think I can -- I'm pretty sure his wife would object.  


-- 
Cici in Texas		         e-mail: cclovis at mindspring dot com

Pound forehead on keyboard to continue.

I am a female, and you have my total support.  If the children want to
see their father, and there is no law preventing it, then it should be
allowed.  Unfortunately, the legal system is the only way to go
sometimes.  People have to listen to what their children want.  When
the other parent has negative things to say about the other parent, it
truly hurts the children.  I know from experience, when my kids return
home from visitation.

Best of luck to all of you hoping to spend holidays with your children,
Susan

In article <8ufom2$33m$1@nnrp2.phx.gblx.net>,
  "Bob Hirschfeld, JD" <BobHirschfeldJD@nolawyer.com> wrote:
> A month and a half until some unprepared
> noncustodial parents may have Christmas experiences like
> the one George told about last year:
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> George:
>
> Thanks, sadly, for telling it like it is for thousands
> of noncustodial parents on Christmas Day. Many of
> those disappointed parents may find
> Parenting Time Visitation Enforcement Software
> useful to never let this kind of denial go
> unchallenged in the future. See:
> http://www.wizardlaw.com/visnfors.html
>
> On Saturday, December 25, 1999 9:52 AM, George wrote:
>
> > Dear Editor,
> > I would like to submit the following for consideration the "As I
See It"
> > column.
> >
> > It is Christmas.  The day is finally here.
> >
> > Today, the calls will begin, and door bells will ring.  Somewhere a
mother
> > tells her children to go to their rooms.  Then she goes to answer
the
> door.
> >
> > "Hello Frank, what do you want?" she says to the man standing there.
> >
> > "I'm here to pick up of the kids for Christmas."
> >
> > "I told you on the phone that they don't want to spend today with
you.
> They
> > want to go to my parents.  Are you deaf, or just dumb?"
> >
> > "Helen, the court order says I get them for Christmas."
> >
> > "You know the courts don't enforce that.  No one cares if you see
the
> kids.
> > So if you keep bothering me with this, I'm going to call the police
and
> say
> > you're threatening us.  You'll be in jail in a flash.  So go away!"
> >
> > "Well, I figured you would ignore the orders again, so I brought
the kids'
> > presents.  Can I see them?"
> >
> > "No, they're playing in their room.  Put the presents in the garage
and I
> > will tell them they're from you."
> >
> > "Can I call them?"
> >
> > "No, not this weekend, we'll be busy.  I'll call you if they want
to talk
> to
> > you."
> >
> > After seeing the father gone, the mother calls the children.
> >
> > "Was that Daddy?" says the 7-year-old.
> >
> > "Yes"
> >
> > "Will we see him today?"
> >
> > "No, he's busy.  He's spending Christmas with his girlfriend and
her kids.
> > I'm so sorry."
> >
> > "Did he bring us anything?"
> >
> > "No, he didn't.  He can't afford to buy you presents this year, but
I
> think
> > he's just spending his money on his girlfriend's kids.  He's not
even
> paying
> > his child support.  But don't worry, there are lots of gifts for
you, I
> even
> > think that Santa left some more around here.  I'm going to find
them, so
> > whys don't you go out and play while I look."
> >
> > As they leave, she opens a cabinet, takes out wrapping paper and
tape,
> than
> > goes to the garage.
> >
> > This story is true, though the names are different to protect the
> innocent,
> > and the not-so.  Some version of this event will be repeated
thousands of
> > times on this day.  Christmas, when we are suppose to be
celebrating the
> > wondrous birth of Jesus and his example of a relationship between a
Father
> > and his Son.
> >
> > But on this day, government studies show that 60% of fathers will be
> denied
> > their children for Christmas.  Many will have traveled thousands of
miles,
> > only to be turned away.
> >
> > Many will go to court, getting a hearing some time in the Spring.
They'll
> > spend thousands only to hear a judge tell them that Christmas is
past, so
> > there is nothing that can be done about it. They should get them
next
> > Christmas.
> >
> > Others will throw up their hands, saying that there's no use.  The
> heartache
> > every time they are denied is just too much.  So they just hope the
kids
> > will want to see them when they are grown.
> >
> > A few others will feel that they cannot live without their children
and
> > decide that life is not worth living anymore.
> >
> > In this coming political year, and with the issues of the Cuban
boy, one
> has
> > to wonder why is there so much concern with child support, and so
little
> > with court-ordered-parenting-time.  Commercials are run telling
fathers to
> > spend more time with their children, but no advice on how millions
of
> > nonresidential fathers can do it.  Maybe the one question that
should be
> > asked of those who want to lead this great country is, "When will
children
> > have the right to not only a father's money, but also to a father's
love?"
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > JOIN THE NATIONAL CONGRESS FOR FATHERS AND CHILDREN, NCFC:
> > http://www.ncfc.net/howjoin.html
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Bob Hirschfeld, JD wrote in message


>That makes TWO morons: "Techie" and "Peterd"



You really should get the feel of a newsgroup before you SPAM, the word is
"MarOOns"

Dennis

Karla wrote:

>  So here's
> what I'm proposing: Bob, we'll take alt.support.single-parents and you
> can take the rest of the Usenet.
>

Speak for your self Karla and the rest of the assp cult, this ain't your
club and you can't deny or ok membership.  He can't have the rest of usenet
to spam at will either as far as i'm concerned.

ManHaterosote@nontechie.com wrote to Karla, of all people:
 
> Speak for your self Karla and the rest of the assp cult, this ain't
> your club and you can't deny or ok membership.  He can't have the rest
> of usenet to spam at will either as far as i'm concerned.

And little Missy Manners just rolls along, making friends everywhere she
goes. 

You go girl! Lorain, just keep on alienating even those who might
actually be willing to put UP with your cr*p.

ROTFLMAOPIMP!!!!
 
peterd
--The original peterd. Accept no Substitutes.--
http://www.peterd.com

"Pat Strong" Replied to "me" with very good advice....

*snipped my msg, part Pat's and Bob's*

>why don't you and your children celebrate >Christmas on another day?

I have thought of that... The kids had said they'd have no problem
celebrating early/late with dad because they like going to the midnight mass
(which here they only have once a year)  I still have an avid 'believer' in
'Santa' and he only comes on December the 24th late in the evening... Which
kind of messes up everything yet I am not ready to 'enlighten' her yet...

>The kids are going to have to understand
>and deal with the "mom's way/dad's way" split >anyway, this is just one of
a
>number adjustments y'all have to accommodate.

LOL Pat if you knew some of the 'real' story regarding the adjustments to
'dads way' you'd have a kitten... Some things I will accomodate others I
will not...

Had the kids chosen to go to dad's that would be the end of it... I'd let
them... They chose not to... As I stated it takes alot to even get my
daughter to go once a month or so for a night or weekend... (long story)

>This is one of those battles that can disappear >when you just quit
fighting it.
>It isn't fair that you will have to celebrate >Christmas a few days early,
(with
>all your family if you can get everyone interested), >but does it really
matter when the kids can get >some peace instead of all the tension?  We
both >know he is enjoying jerking your chain.... see what >happens when you
simply refuse to acknowledge >the chain at all.

The kids only experience tension when they are at dads... regardless of the
season... Just going over to his house is a major accomplishment for them...

>One has to figure out what will work sometimes, >not what is fair or even
our own wish.

I have to agree with you on this point... One does have to figure out what
will work...

>Pat

Thanks Pat for the words of wisdom :))
Kim