🚀 go-pugleaf

Laura Masters (lmasters@vaxxine.com) wrote:

> Victim #2, a transgender sex-worker, has been identified as 31 year
> old Thomas Wilkinson.  I apologize for using a man's name here, but
> the police do not know this person's fem name, and this is her legal
> name.

I've always had a secret curiosity as to how many of us are born with
the name "Thomas".  (For the non-bibliophilies, the meaning of the
name is "twin").  

Joan 
-- 
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Wombat! Transexual Menace! Vicus Lusorum! Curry!
Theoni Srith Nanklaren/Bubblegum Crisis/Rollerblade Macro EQ 
Quare tristis es anima mea, et quare conturbas me?

In alt.transgendered,  jott@snugbug.cts.com (Joan Tine) wrote:
->Laura Masters (lmasters@vaxxine.com) wrote:
->> Victim #2, a transgender sex-worker, has been identified as 31 year
->> old Thomas Wilkinson.  I apologize for using a man's name here, but
->> the police do not know this person's fem name, and this is her legal
->> name.
->
->I've always had a secret curiosity as to how many of us are born with
->the name "Thomas".  (For the non-bibliophilies, the meaning of the
->name is "twin").  

So, lets see if I get this... There is a serial killer running around
killing Transgendered people and prostitutes, and terrorizing a whole city.
The police have no clues, and are making a public appeal for any and all
help they can get on the case... and the depth of your concern for your own
peers extends no further than curiosity about one of the victim's names?

Wonderful ethics you got going there Joan....

-- 

        Laura Masters
        -------------

Laura Masters (lmasters@vaxxine.com) wrote:

> So, lets see if I get this... 

Yes, Laura, you have a *complete* grasp of the essential, no, the very
!Platonic! (neo-, Pythegorean Revisionist-, and Existential-) reality
of the situation, one which admits no improvement (in the valuative,
epistemological, or Shannon Information Theory sense) clarification,
nor amendment, and which could in no wise be improved by anthing
(v)resembling communication between me and your worthy self, which is
fortunate because I suspect you find the prospect as revolting as I
do.

Now go away before I notice you, lunatic.

Joan
-- 
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Wombat! Transexual Menace! Vicus Lusorum! Curry!
Theoni Srith Nanklaren/Bubblegum Crisis/Rollerblade Macro EQ 
Quare tristis es anima mea, et quare conturbas me?

Joan Tine wrote:
> 
> I've always had a secret curiosity as to how many of us are born with
> the name "Thomas".  (For the non-bibliophilies, the meaning of the
> name is "twin").
> 

My orignal name was 'Thomas' which may explain the Latinized, feminine 
dimutive I now use... *G*

--
Tomia

tomia@aa.net   < http://www.aa.net/~tomia/ >

"Very funny, Scotty.  NOW BEAM DOWN MY CLOTHES!"

Joan Tine wrote:
> 
> I've always had a secret curiosity as to how many of us are born with
> the name "Thomas".  (For the non-bibliophilies, the meaning of the
> name is "twin").
> 

My orignal name was 'Thomas' which explaines the Latinized, feminine 
dimutive I now use... *G*

--
Tomia

tomia@aa.net   < http://www.aa.net/~tomia/ >

"Very funny, Scotty.  NOW BEAM DOWN MY CLOTHES!"

In alt.transgendered,  jott@snugbug.cts.com (Joan Tine) wrote:
->Yes, Laura, you have a *complete* grasp of the essential, no, the very
->!Platonic! (neo-, Pythegorean Revisionist-, and Existential-) reality
->of the situation, one which admits no improvement (in the valuative,
->epistemological, or Shannon Information Theory sense) clarification,
->nor amendment, and which could in no wise be improved by anthing
->(v)resembling communication between me and your worthy self, which is
->fortunate because I suspect you find the prospect as revolting as I
->do.
->
->Now go away before I notice you, lunatic.

Thank you Joan.

The next time I want to be talked down to by a jackass, I'll be sure to
come see you first.


-- 

        Laura Masters
        -------------

Laura Masters (lmasters@vaxxine.com) wrote:

> Thank you Joan.

> The next time I want to be talked down to by a jackass, I'll be sure to
> come see you first.

<Snert!> But Laura, don't limit yourself--you could put on your top
hat and walk under a duck.**  If you don't like the results, then stop
attacking people just to feel that naughty little twinge in your
penis(c).  Alternatively, if you really _need_ the combat, go do it in
pro per...like in a longshoreman's bar.  I feel sure you're
comfortable with _their_ idiom, you certainly talk the talk:).


Joan

**Without bending at the knees, which is good, considering the value
you place on a soldierly posture.

-- 
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Wombat! Transexual Menace! Vicus Lusorum! Curry!
Theoni Srith Nanklaren/Bubblegum Crisis/Rollerblade Macro EQ 
Quare tristis es anima mea, et quare conturbas me?

In alt.transgendered,  JF Haugh <jfh@tab.com> wrote:
->Laura Masters wrote:
->> In alt.transgendered,  jott@snugbug.cts.com (Joan Tine) wrote:
->> ->Now go away before I notice you, lunatic.
->> 
->> Thank you Joan.
->> 
->> The next time I want to be talked down to by a jackass, I'll be sure to
->> come see you first.
->
->But at least you didn't deny that you are an utter and complete
->raving lunatic.
->
->Go do something creative, like toss that modem out the window again.
->Tell us how many peices it shatters into and what they look like.
->-- 
->"What do lesbians do?
-> Lesbians love to do."
->         -- Queen of Swords

Well well well, so you want to keep this little game of yours going... lets
just put the truth out on the net, and let people decide for themselves.

You came to the net all pissed off and angry at transgenderists, in the
middle of a flame war, blaming us for your impending divorce and job
losses, and taking sides with the worst transbashers in the group... and
you are still friends with them.

You then started pissing on me in e-mail, except that you discovered that I
had a lot of credible stuff to say, and you began revealing your past and
your problems to me.  I took pity on you.

I sent you some of my documents to read, and you disocovered that
"Transgender Identity" contained information about the possibility of a
biological etiology for transsexualism.  And with that in mind you formed a
whole lot of mistaken impressions about how far you could push me...

Then on the telephone, you revealed that you are loaded with money, and are
in the midst of a really hot divorce case wherein your wife is dumping you,
suing you for property and assets, and trying to take away your child
visitiation rights... why?  Because you told her you were a "Male lesbian
who intended to have a sex-change".

You also began pressuring me to be an expert witness in your divorce, and
said that you _expected_ me to testify upon the strength of the first
chapter of Transgender Identity that you had no choice but to be a lesbian
transsexual and that your actions were not of your own choosing.

I then explained that Transgender Identity was intended to provide guidance
in the identification of complainants on human rights cases, and was not a
scientifically valid etiologic theory, and suggested that an insanity
defense is hardly the way to fight child custody issues and ended the
conversation.

A few days later I discovered that you were plunging ahead with this
blatant abuse the information I generated, and so I posted a notice on
Usenet, and to the people requesting copies of the document saying that
their interpretation of the document was grossly incorrect.

So now with your nose all out of joint you are slandering me all over the
net, and basically behaving like a spoiled little boy.  Let me guess, Joan
Tine, Nikki, Dana Hamm and Cuntwoman --the three worst transbashers on the
net-- put you up to this didn't they?

I warned you some time ago that if you didn't stop this stupid game playing
of yours you were going to end up being lead around by the nose, and making
a first class ass of yourself... Well congratuations, you have exceeded
even my most wild expectations.

-- 

        Laura Masters
        -------------

In article <Eg1pxoNb43uB089yn@vaxxine.com>, lmasters@vaxxine.com (Laura
Masters) wrote:


>So now with your nose all out of joint you are slandering me all over the
>net, and basically behaving like a spoiled little boy.  Let me guess, Joan
>Tine, Nikki, Dana Hamm and Cuntwoman --the three worst transbashers on the
>net-- put you up to this didn't they?

Why did you include Joan in that?  From what I've seen, she doesn't
disagree with you any more than I do, but she's a lot more vocal in her
criticism of your technique and presentation on the net.  I can't comment
on Nikki; I don't recall what she's been writing, but you're right on the
mark about those other two.

Hamm and Karen say that they offer support, yet all I've seen from them is
abuse.  John Haugh is firmly in their camp, and is as prone to abusing as
they are.  I doubt that there is anything that they are not below doing.

But Joan Tine?  No way.

--Michelle

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
|      Michelle Steiner        | ...and then the day came when the risk  |
|      steiner@best.com        |    to  remain tight in a bud was more   |
| http://www.best.com/~steiner |painful than the risk it took to blossom.|
|          60 days             |                             --Anais Nin |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Michelle Steiner (steiner@best.com) wrote:
> In article <Eg1pxoNb43uB089yn@vaxxine.com>, lmasters@vaxxine.com (Laura
> Masters) wrote:

> >So now with your nose all out of joint you are slandering me all over the
> >net, and basically behaving like a spoiled little boy.  Let me guess, Joan
> >Tine, Nikki, Dana Hamm and Cuntwoman --the three worst transbashers on the
> >net-- put you up to this didn't they?

> Why did you include Joan in that?  From what I've seen, she doesn't
> disagree with you any more than I do, but she's a lot more vocal in
> her criticism of your technique and presentation on the net.  I
> can't comment on Nikki; I don't recall what she's been writing, but
> you're right on the mark about those other two.

> Hamm and Karen say that they offer support, yet all I've seen from
> them is abuse.  John Haugh is firmly in their camp, and is as prone
> to abusing as they are.  I doubt that there is anything that they
> are not below doing.

> But Joan Tine?  No way.

Riki Wilchins said something last night which got me thinking: she
always goes to the most "out" of the "out" camps in any situation.  At
MWMF she identified herself as pre-op, 'cuz pre-ops were strengstens
verboten and being denied entry.  Or she'll call herself a
crossdresser, or go stand with the people who are lowest on the local
totem pole, both out of principle, and out of practical policy. Now, I
understand activism needs to get the most reaction for the most
efficient input, but this technique also has an important and
beneficial side effect for the viewer and for the actor: it reminds us
that it's not the person, it's the rationale of the situation or the
argument being put forward.

I judge Masters harshly as a _person_ because she is ignorant and has
no breeding.  I give her short shrift as an individual because she is
a poor strategist: she has to fight every battle, even those which
exist only in her mind.  She can't let _anything_ go, which is a sign
of too much punishment absorbed over too long a period.  Political
power may grow from the muzzle of a gun, but if the person with the
gun can't spell his own name, he is incapable of producing any social
change other than cold bodies.  This is a paradox, but it is true, for
the same reason Heinlein said "war is as personal as a punch in the
nose".  Force isn't violence.  Hammering a nail isn't violence, and
marching with signs or filing briefs are not violent acts.  Holding a
world view which contains mechanisms for flushing "different"
individuals out of the system IS violence.  Changing that system is
not war: it's medicine.

But Riki said something else which I found illuminating: it isn't the
transsexual who has the greatest potential for fixing what is wrong
with our society's construction of gender: it is the male cross
dresser, when and if he comes out of his closet, and talks to other
men.  Only a man in a dress has the ability to communicate to other
men _as_ a man who has a different take on _being_ a man.  The male
crossdresser may arguably be the only sane figure on the landscape: he
seeks to re-unite his being with what was ripped away in adolescence
and reclaim his female part.  To that I have to add my oft-repeated
homily, that while gender dysphoria isn't an illness, it's no
guarantee of sanity either.  It doesn't vaccinate you against
paranoia.

So there is surely some Zen role for the (sane) Lauras of this world,
but their venue of action isn't in our community it's in the male
strongholds.  I'd feel safer if we decided to do a little blockbusting
in Joe Ball's Greasy Spoon if I was sitting next to Laura than in a
posse of exclusively passable TS sisters, for the simple reason that
Laura scares hell out of me, and if she looks anything like she
sounds, she's useful for area security, *besides* being my choice for
group spokesperson if Joe Balls wants to interlocute.  Laura is so
predominantly male in her microcode that she would undoubtedly relate
better to Joe and put him more at his ease than I ever could.  Joe
_needs_ to be confronted with one of his own in a dress.  He can
understand Laura better than he could ever understand me, and vice
versa, especially if Laura is up front about the erotic nature of the
Act.  It's not so much that TV/CD is such an erotic act, but rather
than in our spavined society, EVERY act is one of obsessive sexuality,
packaged in denial.  This wound needs to be opened, irrigated, and
cauterized.  And how better to fix a wound in a fetish-blinded society
than by showing up in a leather suit with a smoking branding iron?
Consistency.  Consistency in all things:).

We all have a job to do, is the short of it.  We all ought to be able
to help do it.  But little will get done unless we can all recognize
each others potential for helping.

As to Dana and Drumwomyn...are they even still _around_?  I figured
they have new aliases and a new group to assault now.  Am I not
getting all the messages at snugbug again?  Related question: did they
ever form their alt.indignation.orthodox.ts group?

Egregious as I find Laura, I find the power of Riki's strategy much
more important, and any TS who would be unable to blythely claim
identity as a CD, a drag queen, or a TV just to get the maximum rise
out of some closed mind probably needs to re-examine their political
understandings.  And any TS who would be personally shamed or revolted
by the prospect needs to get their humanity and sense of self in
order.  We have a lot of work to do, and very little of it is on each
other.  The fact that our real enemies are concepts and thoughts is a
hard thing to bear, and we tend to strike at each other because it is
so _hard_ to find the enemy, fix the enemy, and fight the enemy.  But
we have to, the clock is operating.

                        *    *    *    *

The older I get the clearer one image is in my mind: my daughters and
sons.  Every gathering I attend, I see so many beautiful young girls
and a sprinking of finely-sculpted young boys, as perfect and precious
as if God made them in the gender they present.  They are our
children, the offspring of the thing which defines our life.  We can
reap lots of moral duty points by doing what we can to fix the world
they and theirs will inherit, so they can walk down the streets we
walk down today and not feel the hurt we do.

I've been bothered by questions of "when does this shame, fear, and
fight-or-flight stuff go away, or at least get more managable?"  It
seems that it _doesn't_ go away.  There are people accomplishing good
work who are just as scared as I am.  This is good news.  It means we
don't have to keep waiting.

Love,

Joan
-- 
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Wombat! Transexual Menace! Vicus Lusorum! Curry!
Theoni Srith Nanklaren/Bubblegum Crisis/Rollerblade Macro EQ 
Quare tristis es anima mea, et quare conturbas me?

In article <1996May26.183439.24138@snugbug.cts.com>, jott@snugbug.cts.com
(Joan Tine) wrote:

>I judge Masters harshly as a _person_ because she is ignorant and has
>no breeding.

I disagree; her behavior on the nets may be less than
perfect--reprehensible even, but she is not ignorant.  I won't comment on
her breeding, because I have no knowledge of how she was raised.

She has always been abrasive, and has turned off people, including her
supporters.  However, given the circumstances on these two newsgroups over
the past few months, with the underhanded, vicious attacks on her by slime
like Hamm, drumwomn, and Haugh, I find it hard to blame her for her
reaction.

>I give her short shrift as an individual because she is
>a poor strategist: she has to fight every battle, even those which
>exist only in her mind.

True, but that doesn't make her less of an individual.  Sometimes,
important battles are won because someone is too stubborn to give up,
where a more rational person would have given up and lost.

>She can't let _anything_ go, which is a sign
>of too much punishment absorbed over too long a period.

Not necessarily, although she has absorbed a lot of punishment here over
the past few months.

<...>

>So there is surely some Zen role for the (sane) Lauras of this world,
>but their venue of action isn't in our community it's in the male
>strongholds.

Perhaps there is truth in that; most of Laura's venues has been in the
male strongholds--the government.

>I'd feel safer if we decided to do a little blockbusting
>in Joe Ball's Greasy Spoon if I was sitting next to Laura than in a
>posse of exclusively passable TS sisters, for the simple reason that
>Laura scares hell out of me, and if she looks anything like she
>sounds, she's useful for area security, *besides* being my choice for
>group spokesperson if Joe Balls wants to interlocute.

She doesn't scare me at all--and I know that how people sound on line has
little to do with what they look like in public.

>Laura is so
>predominantly male in her microcode that she would undoubtedly relate
>better to Joe and put him more at his ease than I ever could.

I do not find her to be male at all.  An angry woman, but not male.  In my
abortion-clinic escort and defense, I work with quite a number of angry
women, but straight and lesbian.  Many of them sound like Laura does--when
they need to.  Or it may be that they can turn it off when they need to
turn it off.  I've found Laura to be completely nonconfrontational when
she's not being attacked.

<...>

>As to Dana and Drumwomyn...are they even still _around_?

Dana has posted here once in a while right up to about two weeks ago. 
She's mostly lurking, it appears.  Interestingly, a search of Alta Vista
and DejaNews shows that except for here, she hasn't posted anywhere on the
net since mid April.  Also interestingly, both of those searches for
drumwomn show no activity anywhere on the net since mid April.

>I figured
>they have new aliases and a new group to assault now.  Am I not
>getting all the messages at snugbug again?  Related question: did they
>ever form their alt.indignation.orthodox.ts group?

If they did, it hasn't shown up on my ISP's server yet.  I doubt that they
ever did, though.

Getting back to the subject at hand, I find both you and Laura to be in
error in your appraisals of each other.

I dunno, for some reason, I can disagree with her on just about anything
(and there's a lot that I do disagree with her on--especially the
"internalized transphobia" theme) and tell her what I think of her without
pulling punches, yet she and I remain friends.  Maybe it's because she and
I are alike in some ways.

I have a reputation on other newsgroups similar to Laura's here.  I won't
take shit from people and get very offensive in my language when replying
to them.  Those who can see below the surface (and there aren't many who
can) understand that I reply in kind, but usually escalating the
hostilities.  Most of the people here on usenet are all talk and no
action.  I have very little respect for them--I have more respect for the
anti-choicer who is at the clinic, trying to promote his cause (but would
still rather not see him there at all) than I do for those who sit behind
their computer screen and just blow steam.

Laura has tried to do something good for the transcommunity.  We may not
agree with her opinions (heck, I strongly disagree with Leslie Feinberg's
Marxism, but I admire her work--if you haven't read _Transgender Warriors_
yet, do so), and with her methods, but I think that her goals (as I
understand them) are sound.  She is trying to protect us from
discrimination and oppression, and has worked to get transsexuals access
to surgery without being categorized as mentally or emotionally unstable.

Laura is one side of the coin that Hamm, Drumwomn, and Haugh are the other
side of--unfortunately.  I think that the latter three are much more
dangerous to the community, though--they suck people in with their
"support" and try to warp them beyond recognition.

I think that I've rambled enough.

--Michelle

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
|      Michelle Steiner        | ...and then the day came when the risk  |
|      steiner@best.com        |    to  remain tight in a bud was more   |
| http://www.best.com/~steiner |painful than the risk it took to blossom.|
|          59 days             |                             --Anais Nin |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Christopher D Dukes (cddukes@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
> In article <loapxoNb4faB089yn@vaxxine.com>,
> Laura Masters <lmasters@vaxxine.com> wrote:
> >So, lets see if I get this... There is a serial killer running around
> >killing Transgendered people and prostitutes, and terrorizing a whole city.
> >The police have no clues, and are making a public appeal for any and all
> >help they can get on the case... and the depth of your concern for your own
> >peers extends no further than curiosity about one of the victim's names?
> >
> >Wonderful ethics you got going there Joan....

> And aside from breaking the news in a someeewhat chilly fashion, all
> you can do is bitch about someone's coping mechanism?  Is Joan
> supposed to shave her head, rend her clothes into rags, and go
> around town sobbing?

Only when I lose someone I know personally.

> The world is filled with senseless violence.  Get over it.

Also, the world is filled with cheap hypocrisy.  I'm not a hypocrite.
No, I don't feel a lot of real, personal distress every time I hear of
someone being killed, for several reasons.  Primarily, I've buried too
many close friends in the last decade or so, and I got used to it.
Also, overmuch grieving is the body's way of dealing with its own fear
of death, and it puts the person feeling the grief in a non-rational
position to pity those "others" who must die.  But I'm convinced that
I will die, too.  In fact, it is not a totally bad thing to
contemplate, and becomes less bad the longer I live and the more I
see.  This blunts a lot of the motivation to pity the dead.  

If I work a case of an individual, and start getting to know them
after the fact, their loss will hit me much harder.  But the old
(Nazi?) homily is a fact of human nature: one death is a tragedy, a
thousand deaths is a statistic.  If it were any other way, we would
become so paralyzed we couldn't keep the world running, and death
would conquer us before our time.  Strategically, it is noteworthy
when one of our community gets offed, but not exclusively so, since
there are so _many_ ways we can die, that is just one more stat in the
risk column, and in a time as dangerous as ours, it is easy to become
inured to even high risk levels.

Conversely, I read alt.support.grief.pet-loss regularly, because every
time I do, I can guarantee full, sobbing crying in excess of 5
minutes, which dumps a lot of poison and tension from my system.  This
may sound cold-blooded, and it is, to the extent that I know what my
body needs, and try to provide it using the programmed cues which are
most reliable.  In an absolute sense, it is precisely as reprehensible
(or not) as masturbation, for precisely the same reasons.  If I could
get the same reflexive sorrow and loss leading to the same catharsis
over the loss of another human being, I'd do so, if only in the
interest of abstract morality...but my life experiences with people,
from the first encounters with them back in 1953, haven't permitted me
to like or trust enough human beings so successfully that I
instinctively care at that basic level what happens to them.  I have
to use the forebrain and the ethics routines to become outraged over
murder, whereas there is no conscious processing involved at the loss
of a pet cat, and no need to force an emotive reaction.  I am bound to
the dog or cat at a level I don't have with regard to my own species,
and there is no way to repair that kind of basic socialization at my
age...or at any age much past 12, for that matter.  This seems part of
the legacy of the abused child, but I don't think that anybody has a
monopoly on it.  If we can compensate with our logic for the lack of a
feeling, we will be doing all that can reasonably be required of us.
We simply have to remember that blind people don't apply for jobs as
bus drivers, and place limits on the things we try to do unaided.

We all react to things differently, and in the course of our lives, we
all react to the same thing in a variety of ways, depending on our
health, strength, and awareness.  This is how it is, everybody is at a
different point walking the path around the lake.  While we can see
each other, we can't feel what the ground is like under anybody's feet
but ours.  This can tend to make people want to dictate "proper"
behavior to others.  That isn't always a major aggression, it is
usually just a sign they're young at life, or they haven't thought
much about what they've seen and done.  And it _certainly_ can't be
fixed.  NO life lesson can be reduced to words, especially when the
people talking have been raised to treat experience as poker chips in
a game of male status.  Knowledge claims are instinctive, and real
knowledge is almost nil, beyond the basic body-knowledge and some
simple fears.  Only reflection helps, and that requires years or
lifetimes.

> BTW, I could swear that the news items both used a euphemism for
> prostitute to describe the T* folks.  I have no problem with that
> fact, but glossing over it does little to smooth down the tension,
> division, and hypocrisy of the T* ranks.

Nothing is going to be done to change any of those things by talking
to each other.  We feel too much unresolved angst, and seeing each
other we see the thing which stimulates that fear.  We need to go out
and do some basic repatterning and reclaim some of that 'turf' we've
ceded to 'the straights' before we'll really _believe_ we can live.
I'm rather expert at getting caught in concepts which may not reflect
reality, as does anybody who manipulates complex models.  The only
touchstone is to dive in.

Joan
-- 
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Wombat! Transexual Menace! Vicus Lusorum! Curry!
Theoni Srith Nanklaren/Bubblegum Crisis/Rollerblade Macro EQ 
Quare tristis es anima mea, et quare conturbas me?

Well, I'm still scraping my jaw off the floor.  I'm absolutely appalled at
this spectacle.  It's like a huge crash on the freeway that you know you
should just drive by, but you can't help gawking anyway.

I've been away from alt.tg for a few months, apparently while we were
undergoing an attack from yet another wave of idiots, but I didn't realize
the intensity of what had been going on.

Laura, you're an extreme person even in this unusual population, but on the
other hand, you certainly get some extreme shit thrown at you.  I don't know
what the chain of causality is here, if there is one, but you have my
complete support against John Haugh.

-- Mark Hood

Dana Hamm (dtwo@su1.in.net) wrote:
> Joan Tine wrote:

> > As to Dana and Drumwomyn...are they even still _around_?  	
> 	I am not going anywhere Joan.

> > I figured they have new aliases and a new group to assault now.

> 	It was never an asault. It remains a defense against a rampant
> redefining effort.

I can give you the benefit of the doubt on that one, but from where I
sat (steeped in General Semantics) the discussions regarding language
were arguments by a bunch of monkeys as to whether to best use a can
opener for shaving ice or for pitting prunes.  Not real entertaining,
ditto informative.

> > Related question: did they ever form their alt.indignation.orthodox.ts 
> > group?

> 	Do you *realy* care..?? You seem to fit in nicely here....

A misperception/misdefinition on your part.  This channel isn't a
"group" or a "community" which is why I use it.  I don't "fit in" by
choice.  In fact, the very act of "fitting in" generally renders the
actor unfit for my attention, in my judgement.  Groupthink gives me
hives, along with the knee-jerk dominance games y'all seem to thrive
on.  For that reason I dropped transgen-l over a year ago and will
view subscribing to similar "members only" fora with a jaundiced eye.
The average simian nervous system goes even more haywire than normal
when it consciously seeks to limit its perceptions and inputs, and
that is the whole point of "orthodoxy": it translates as "We already
have all the data, we don't want to hear your zero-valued ravings, go
away."  And the universe often does...ask the dinosaurs:).

All that is secondary to the preposterous notion that the patient
knows more about the complaint than a trained scientist, (with the
correlary that organized research is part of a plot to deprive the
little person of his rights) and ought therefore be accorded equal
status in defining taxonomy and treatment.  But in todays empire of
ignorance, saying so is heresy, one person's opinion being as good as
another's, and soforth.

Joan
-- 
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Wombat! Transexual Menace! Vicus Lusorum! Curry!
Theoni Srith Nanklaren/Bubblegum Crisis/Rollerblade Macro EQ 
Quare tristis es anima mea, et quare conturbas me?