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In article <1992Nov10.173103.4036@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) writes:
>A few more questions about Esperanto pronounciation for those of you
>who are more linguistically inclined:
>
>1. How exactly is the 'r' supposed to be pronounced?  As in American
>English, with no trill, or as in most European languages, with a roll? 
>Or is it even as in Russian, where the r is "flapped"?  These three
>variations on the letter r differ significantly?

Like the rolled "r", for instance the Spanish "r", but not the "rr".
On the other hand, just about any "r" will be understood, but the
French/German/Danish guttural sounds ugly.
>
>2. What about letters like p, t, and d?  In English, they're aspirated
>(although not as much as in a language like German), while in Russian
>they're not.  (By the way -- I've read that it's worse in Hindi -- in
>Hindi there are in many cases separate letters representing the
>aspirated and unaspirated consonants.)

Unaspirated, or only very little. Definitely not like the Indian aspirated
consonants. And not like the retroflex ones either!

>
>3. Is there any vowel reduction in Esperanto?  That is, can you end up
>with a vowel sound like the 'schwa' -- the a in 'about', the i in
>'pencil', the o in 'lemon', etc.?

Never. _That_ is a sin.


Pierre



Pierre Jelenc                        pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu 
                                    Columbia University, New York

In <1992Nov10.184135.4237@news.columbia.edu> pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc) writes:
>In article <1992Nov10.173103.4036@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) writes:
>>A few more questions about Esperanto pronounciation for those of you
>>who are more linguistically inclined:
>>
>>1. How exactly is the 'r' supposed to be pronounced?  As in American
>>English, with no trill, or as in most European languages, with a roll? 
>>Or is it even as in Russian, where the r is "flapped"?  These three
>>variations on the letter r differ significantly?
>
>Like the rolled "r", for instance the Spanish "r", but not the "rr".
>On the other hand, just about any "r" will be understood, but the
>French/German/Danish guttural sounds ugly.
>>
>>2. What about letters like p, t, and d?  In English, they're aspirated
>>(although not as much as in a language like German), while in Russian
>>they're not.  (By the way -- I've read that it's worse in Hindi -- in
>>Hindi there are in many cases separate letters representing the
>>aspirated and unaspirated consonants.)
>
>Unaspirated, or only very little. Definitely not like the Indian aspirated
>consonants. And not like the retroflex ones either!

One of the nice things about Esperanto is that the sounds are all
sharply differentiated, with none of the subtle differences found in
other languages (e.g. English bid/bed/bad/bawd/bored/board/bard/barred).

So the precise degree of trill on the 'r', or aspiration of 'p', etc.,
is not too important.  As long as the sounds remain identifiable,
you will still be understood - although people may say you're speaking
Esperanto with a French/German/English/Russian/etc accent.

Zamenhof recommended Italian as a model for the sounds of Esperanto,
especially the vowel sounds, so if you can't get to hear spoken
Esperanto, Italian may be a good next choice.

ObEsperanto:    La veter-prognozo por jau`do, la 12a de novembro

            La okcidenta au` nordokcidenta vento dau`re blovos super la
            Britaj Insuloj.  En Skotlando kay norda Anglujo estos tre
            malvarme.  En okcidento Anglujo kay Kimrujo estos sune, sed
            pluvetos de tempo al tempo.
-- 

===============================================================================
Dave | dsg@imp.co.uk | +44 753 516599 | "C^i tio ne estas .subskribo"
===============================================================================

In article <1992Nov10.212613.2995@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov>, urban@sideshow.jpl.nasa.gov (Michael Urban) writes:
|> I have three basic rules of thumb for Esperanto pronunciation.
|> 
|> 1. Someone from a random country that listens to your Esperanto speech
|>    should not be able to tell where you come from.  The American
|>    animal-growl `r', the British vanishing `r', and the French guttural
|>    `r' are all partial give-aways.  But what to pick?  Ah.  Rule 2:
|> 
|> 2. When in doubt, think theatric-Italian, but leave out the hand
|>    gestures.  When that doesn't help, think `stage Transylvanian'
|>    so that `kvin' is pronounced like Bela Lugosi saying `I vant
|>    (good vowel there) to see the kveen!'
|> 
|> 3. Letters should be clear and unambiguous.  As Pierre points out,
|>    Esperanto, unlike many languages, does not distinguish aspiration, but
|>    does distinguish voicing.  The goal is to make `p' as distinct as
|>    possible from `b'.  So if it helps to aspirate the `t' a bit in `meti'
|>    to keep it from sounding too much like `medi', by all means do so!
|> 
|> The vowels should be clearly distinguished.  Americans
|> tend to schwaficate all our unstressed vowels, and when we do, we
|> violate Rule 1.  In Esperanto, where that final unstressed vowel can
|> contain critical grammatical information like tense, it is even more
|> important.  

I like the above rules very much.  I think they get to the gist of Esperanto
pronounciation.  However, I would say  that achieving an accentless
Esperanto as described under 1 is practically impossible.  People will
have more or less of an accent depending on their native tongue, their
background, and other factors, just as they will in any other language.
The advantage with Esperanto is that it does not matter, because as
long as sounds are distinct and clearly understood, your are speaking
good Esperanto.

One thing I would recommend, though, is trying to pronounce the "r"
as in Italian.  For Spanish speakers, an Italian "r", and even a Russian
"r", is practically the same as their own.  Such an "r" with variations
that are practically imperceptible to the average person appears to be 
used also in other romance and slavic languages.  And a last point that 
can't be emphasized too much is the importance of clearly distinguishing 
unstressed vowels.  (Italian is also a very good model for this!)  They do 
contain, basically without exception, very important grammatical and 
semantic information.  If you blurred all unstressed vowels into some 
kind of schwa, your Esperanto would be totally unintelligible!

    Rene J. Valdes              |     rjv@a2.cim.cdc.com       | 

In article <1992Nov10.220107.13628@ariel.ec.usf.edu>, pollock@eggo.tmc.edu (Wayne Pollock) writes:
> In article <1992Nov10.184135.4237@news.columbia.edu> pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov10.173103.4036@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) writes:
>>>1. How exactly is the 'r' supposed to be pronounced?  As in American
>>>English, with no trill, or as in most European languages, with a roll? 
>>>Or is it even as in Russian, where the r is "flapped"?  These three
>>>variations on the letter r differ significantly?
>>
>>Like the rolled "r", for instance the Spanish "r", but not the "rr".
>>On the other hand, just about any "r" will be understood, but the
>>French/German/Danish guttural sounds ugly.
> 
> I have tried but am completely unable to roll or trill an "r".  I have no
> problem with the other sounds needed, just can't get the "r" right.  An
> Americian or English "r" sounds bad.
> 
> Someday maybe someone will tell me how to pronounce the "r".  In the meantime,
> if you're like me here's a tip: you can fake a half-trilled "r" by pronouncing
> the "r" as "dr" as in "droll".  It still sounds awful, but it's better than
> nothing!

Try what we were given in Spanish classes when I was a kid:

	Betty wants better butter

Everywhere you see a "tt" in the above is a sound we already have in
American English (Oh-oh; I forgot to check to see if you're a Brit; if
so, it won't work) which is called a flap.  This flap sound is very
similar to the trill or tap /r/ of Esperanto, Spanish, Italian, etc.  

If there were an Esperanto verb _beri_ it would sound a lot like an
American saying "Betty".  Once to become aware of this sound, you
should eventually be able to produce it when you want to.

> 
> Wayne Pollock
-- 
-Ken <miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> {Sometimes you have to look reality straight
 OPINIONS ARE MY OWN            {in the eye, and deny it. - G. Keillor 

That's almost exactly how my Russian prof taught me how to pronounce a
Russian 'r' -- so apparently an Esperanto 'r' is a lot like the Russian
one?  (Don't flame me if I'm wrong!)

--Ted Schuerzinger
email: .zed@Dartmouth.EDU
"I should have realized it would be bad vodka when all the label said
was 'Russian Vodka'."

I have been wondering what was Zamenhof's idea of the pronounciation of
`n' in `nk' and `ng' and `j' in `aj', `ej', `oj', `uj'.  Most books
recommend that `nk' is pronounced as in `bank' and 'ng' as in `language',
and that `aj', `ej', `oj' and `uj' are pronounced as diphtongs (meaning
that `j' is more or less like the vowel `i' in these cases).  However,
one source tells that the pronounciation of `n' remains unchanged in front
of `k' or `g' (as in Russian).  It also seems logical to assume that since
Zamenhof did not invent a separate letter for the diphtong-forming `i',
as he did for `u', he may have intended `j' to be pronounced more like a
consonant, perhaps analogous to the Russian `i s kratkoi'.

- Matti Jokinen