🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <1993Jan11.224859.3289@news.acns.nwu.edu> ckelly@math.nwu.edu (Christopher Kelly) writes:
>
>-- 
>This looks like a good place to post. Our Russian textbook says to use the
>genetive case with the negative, e.g., "Ya ni znayu etova slova".  But some
>of my friends who have used other textbooks and Russian speakers don't know
>or can't explain why such a rule would be offered. I have no particularly
>strong idea myself since I am just barely finished with my first quarter of
>Russian study. But which is preferrable in most situations?  
>
>	Ya ni znayu etot gorod.   or   Ya ni znayu etova goroda.    ?
>That is         Accusative    or               Genegive     case? 
>
>--Chris Kelly    internet: ckelly@math.nwu.edu
>                 phone:    (708) 491-8020


I think you use the genetive when you are negating the existance of
something, such as "No city is here" : "Zdyec nyet goroda."  What you were
saying before is "I don't know this city."  You're not saying that the city
doesn't exist, you're saying that you don't know it or you don't know where
it is or whatever.

I know that there are no cities here:
Ya znayu, shto zdyec nyet gorodov.

I don't know the cities here.
Ya nye znayu, zdyec gorodi. 

I hope I'm giving you the correct information.  :)

-- Lori

In article <1993Jan11.224859.3289@news.acns.nwu.edu> ckelly@math.nwu.edu (Christopher Kelly) writes:
>But which is preferrable in most situations?  
>
>	Ya ni znayu etot gorod.   or   Ya ni znayu etova goroda.    ?
>That is         Accusative    or               Genegive     case? 

Well, both forms are used, though the first (accusative) feels
more "correct" (i.e. bookish); it can be thought of as a reduction from

"Ya [nichego] ne znayu [pro] etot gorod".
"Ya ne znayu [chto] eto slovo [oboznachayet]".

This variant fits the grammatical characteristics of the verb znat' better:

"Ty znaesh' etot gorod?" is valid but one cannot say
"Ty znaesh' etogo goroda?".

At the same time, the second (genegive) form can be derived from

"Ya ne znayu [ulits] etogo goroda"
"Ya ne znayu [smysla] etogo slova"

and is more likely to be used in speech (especially southern).

Well, in some cases those usages aren't equivalent:

"Ya ne skazal slovo!"	(I didn't say the word!)
"Ya ne skazal slova!"	(I didn't say a word!)

but "Ya ne skazal eto slovo!" is equivalent to "Ya ne skazal etogo slova!".

Basically it means that in such constructions in the absense of
the specification eto/etogo the accusative form assumes the reference to
the specific object while genegive implies reference to any object
of the class (in negative statement, of course).

Want to switch to Chinese? :-)

--vadim

In article <1993Jan11.232648.4084@news.acns.nwu.edu> lls@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Lori Smallwood) writes:
>I don't know the cities here.
>Ya nye znayu, zdyec gorodi. 

Ya ne znayu zdeshnih gorodov.

(Note the plural).

--vadim

In article <1993Jan11.224859.3289@news.acns.nwu.edu>, ckelly@math.nwu.edu (Christopher Kelly) writes:
|> 
|> -- 
|> This looks like a good place to post. Our Russian textbook says to use the
|> genetive case with the negative, e.g., "Ya ni znayu etova slova".  But some
|> of my friends who have used other textbooks and Russian speakers don't know
|> or can't explain why such a rule would be offered. I have no particularly
|> strong idea myself since I am just barely finished with my first quarter of
|> Russian study. But which is preferrable in most situations?  
|> 
|> 	Ya ni znayu etot gorod.   or   Ya ni znayu etova goroda.    ?
|> That is         Accusative    or               Genegive     case? 
|> 
|> --Chris Kelly    internet: ckelly@math.nwu.edu
|>                  phone:    (708) 491-8020

-- 
In the course I followed I learnt the same thing as you:
Ya ni znayu etova slova and Ya ni znayu etova goroda would 
be the correct expressions to use.


Peter van der Reest,
Student at 
Delft University of Technology,
Department of Electrotechnical Engineering.
Electonics Laboratory.

   ... and even if you choose not to decide,
	              you still have made a choice.

ckelly@math.nwu.edu (Christopher Kelly) writes:

>-- 
>This looks like a good place to post. Our Russian textbook says to use the
>genetive case with the negative, e.g., "Ya ni znayu etova slova".  But some
>of my friends who have used other textbooks and Russian speakers don't know
>or can't explain why such a rule would be offered. I have no particularly
>strong idea myself since I am just barely finished with my first quarter of
>Russian study. But which is preferrable in most situations?  

>	Ya ni znayu etot gorod.   or   Ya ni znayu etova goroda.    ?
>That is         Accusative    or               Genegive     case? 

I am a Russian speaker (born & lived there until 16), and even to
me the difference is almost non-existent.  But if one wants to really
"split hairs" here, to me it feels like the first phrase would
be preferrable when you're talking about the contents of the object:
ie, in a sense:"I don't know this city very well, its streets, attractions
etc."  While the second phrase sounds to me more like:
"I don't know this city, never heard about it".

Gene.