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bernhard@nativechild.com (Bernhard Michaelis) wrote:
> Noone ever claimed, that the Dine people were there before the Hopis.
If by "there" you mean the Hopi village mesas area, this is probably true.
If by "there" you mean the general region, this is probably false.

It is ironic that certain sectors of Hopi society make much of assertions that
the Navajo are "latecomers" to the area when, according to Navajo oral history,
they (the Navajo) have been in the Four Corners area since the beginning of
time, while according to Hopi oral history, they (the Hopi) migrated far and
wide before settling on Black Mesa.

For what it's worth, lack of archaeological evidence of Navajo habitation
doesn't mean they weren't there. Pueblo people leave stone villages that are
plain for all to see, while wood hogans can decay without leaving an obvious
trace. How much evidence you get also depends on how hard you look. The fact
that the Navajo language is related to languages spoken in Canada doesn't tell
you whether people moved from Canada to Navajoland or from Navajoland to Canada,
or whether some other kind of two-way exchange occurred.

I'm not sure how significant exact locations of people many centuries or
millenia ago are to what we do today. If Navajo have no right to live in a
region because they have "only" been there 450 years, what right does any white
have to live anywhere in North America?

>Go into any
>Hopi house, visit any people on the mesas, and ask them personally if they
>feel that this land rightfully belongs to them. They all will say yes
>(that's the answer I always hear, no matter whom I ask), and none of them
>will say that this is an issue of resource extraction.
Counterexamples can be found in the quotes and facts in my previous message.
Here is another quote:
"If you were born on the land, then that land is your home. That cannot be taken
away from you. Tribal Councils, relocation, education - all of this is intended
to get us away from our cultures and our way of life" -- Ezra Hongeva, Hopi

>Were any of the residents of the Hopi villages asked? (not the so called
>traditionals like Thomas Banyaca, please)
Traditional Hopi are not "residents of the Hopi villages"?
This makes no sense - I must have missed something.
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From: hartw@efn.org (hwms)
Newsgroups: apc.indig.info,soc.culture.native,alt.native
Subject: Re: Hopi/Big Mountain antiquity
References: <v03007800630c0b4c6f11@[208.128.20.163]> <33de7072.10309422@news.idiom.com>
Organization: Eugene Free Comunity Network
Reply-To: hwilliams@bookwire.com
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.6+

In article <33de7072.10309422@news.idiom.com>, NO_SPAM_for7gen@idiom.com (Walter Epp) says:
>
>bernhard@nativechild.com (Bernhard Michaelis) wrote:
>> Noone ever claimed, that the Dine people were there before the Hopis.
>If by "there" you mean the Hopi village mesas area, this is probably true.
>If by "there" you mean the general region, this is probably false.
>
>It is ironic that certain sectors of Hopi society make much of assertions that
>the Navajo are "latecomers" to the area when, according to Navajo oral history,
>they (the Navajo) have been in the Four Corners area since the beginning of
>time, while according to Hopi oral history, they (the Hopi) migrated far and
>wide before settling on Black Mesa.

Navajo oral history also claims that "the Creator" gave them sheep.
Should we then conclude that the Spanish created the Navajo?

>
>For what it's worth, lack of archaeological evidence of Navajo habitation
>doesn't mean they weren't there. Pueblo people leave stone villages that are
>plain for all to see, while wood hogans can decay without leaving an obvious
>trace. How much evidence you get also depends on how hard you look. The fact
>that the Navajo language is related to languages spoken in Canada doesn't tell
>you whether people moved from Canada to Navajoland or from Navajoland to Canada,
>or whether some other kind of two-way exchange occurred.

This is "creationist" science: find a conclusion and rationalize
back from it. The archaeological community is utterly in disagreement
with Mr. Epp, who, I might note, is not a qualified archaeologist.

Now, either Mr. Epp accepts scientific findings of fact (which, as
you'll note in the following posts, he delights in WHEN they
suit his purposes) else he's trying to flim-flam you.

He's trying to flim-flam you. The Dineh Bureau in Gallup 
disagrees with Mr. Epp! 

http://www.cia-g.com/~gallpind/dine'/history.htm

>
>I'm not sure how significant exact locations of people many centuries or
>millenia ago are to what we do today. If Navajo have no right to live in a
>region because they have "only" been there 450 years, what right does any white
>have to live anywhere in North America?

This is a non-sequitur. The Hopi have provably been on the mesas
for 1000 years, and their forebears for much longer. The Dineh
Bureau homepage places the Dineh in the Southwest when most
reputable archaeologists do: 16-17th centuries.

Suddenly, Mr. Epp agrees. In matters of law, cases are judicially
estopped when the argument is internally contradictory. Mr. Epp
should be glad he's not arguing a case.

>>Go into any
>>Hopi house, visit any people on the mesas, and ask them personally if they
>>feel that this land rightfully belongs to them. They all will say yes
>>(that's the answer I always hear, no matter whom I ask), and none of them
>>will say that this is an issue of resource extraction.

I might note that, in this month's TUTUVENI, July 11-July 24, a
Hopi Woman, Evva Batala, reports at length on confronting
Louise Benally (from whom Mr. Epp takes his marching orders) at
a lecture given at UCLA recently. When Ms. Benally unashamedly
lied that "90% of the Hopi" were against the relocation, Ms.
Batala confronted her. Benally backed down to it was "Hopi
traditionals" in Hotevilla. Ms. Batala asked Benally if
Hotevilla wasn't a small minority of the Hopi. Ms. Benally
sidestepped the issue and claimed that it was the Tribal 
Council who was the problem. Ms. Batala then stated that
she KNEW the Tribal Council members. Ms. Benally further
retreated.

Finally, as the students began to ask Ms. Batala what the
Hopi ACTUALLY thought, Ms. Benally hastily called the meeting
to an abrupt close. Now, if Louise "Genocide" Benally can't 
reply to the fact that the Hopi want their land back, can we
seriously believe that Mr. Epp is OTHER than prevaricating?

>Counterexamples can be found in the quotes and facts in my previous message.
>Here is another quote:
>"If you were born on the land, then that land is your home. That cannot be taken
>away from you. Tribal Councils, relocation, education - all of this is intended
>to get us away from our cultures and our way of life" -- Ezra Hongeva, Hopi

Yes, this is the lie that the SDN has promulgated to raise funds
for some time now. The actual number of "traditionalist" Hopi in
Hotevilla is no greater than 20. The number of Hopi in favor of
the accomodation IN HOTEVILLA is greater than that. I have
rarely seen such unanimity of agreement on any subject:

the Navajo have stolen Hopi land.
the Hopi want their land back. 

The greatest "minority" opinion in Hopiland is the anger
that the Tribal Council offered the Big Mountain resisters
ANYTHING at all. 

>>Were any of the residents of the Hopi villages asked? (not the so called
>>traditionals like Thomas Banyaca, please)
>Traditional Hopi are not "residents of the Hopi villages"?
>This makes no sense - I must have missed something.

This is a dodge. Thomas Banyacya, Emory Holmes, et al are self-appointed
"religious leaders" who are happy to "support" the Big Mountain case
because they SOLICIT FUNDS FROM THE SAME SOURCES. I append the February
press release from the religious council of Hotevilla, asking that
these frauds be exposed. (And yes, I have independent confirmation
from three sources that this is legitimate):

HOTEVILLA WIWIMKYAM ASSEMBLY

                            Press Release
                      Tuesday, Febuary 04, 1997
                            Hotevilla, AZ

        Following the recent night dances at Hotevilla it has
        become clear that Martin Gasweseoma and Dan Evehema
        will continue to encourage their supporters to defy the
        assembly of Wiwimkyam. 

        Unwelcome individuals attended the dances in Hawiovi 
        Kiva and outside, in direct defiance of the closure
        terms. 

        In response to these individuals and their supporters
        the Wiwimkyam assembly are resolved to expose the
        reckless behavior of these two self-appointed chiefs.

        Martin and Dan do not hold any positions of religious
        authority in Hotevilla.

        Succession to leadership positions in Hotevilla are as
        follows:

                        The Kikmongwi (village chief)
        and the           Wim Momgwit (high priests)

        hold life long positions or until they no longer can
        perform the physical requirements of their position.

        They are selected while in the mother's womb. 

        They are ordained in a hairwashing ritual by the
        Kwakwant. 

        Then they are instructed in the physical, natural and
        spiritual laws of the Land and their responsibilities
        to the people, by the assembly of high priests at the
        Kokop Clan house, wherein resides Masau.  
        
        This same assembly removes irresponsible leaders.  
        
        Martin and Dan have never gone through this process.

        No Bear Clan person has been Kikmongwi at Hotevilla.

        Poliwuhioma from the Bluebird Clan has served as
        Kikmongwi, during Patcavu. 

        He passed this on to Siwihoima who then instructed
        Lomahoima. Yukioma and Pongyayawma (Kokop Clan uncle
        and nephew) have served as caretakers of the land,
        beyond the village proper, through safekeeping of the
        stone tablets, holding them in trust for the people.

        These tablets provides safe passage for the people so
        they have served the people in the village and
        throughout Hopi lands, through this service. 

        This has been the leadership at Hotevilla.  

        Martin and Dan are aware of their responsibilities in
        the community which does not include the authority to
        speak for the people. 

        Dan claims Greasewood Clan, Katsina and Snake
        leadership and holds none of these but only membership
        in the Wuwuchim and in that membership he takes
        direction from the Wuwuchim at the Mong (Chief) Kiva.

        He has never been seen smoking and praying at the
        Katsin-ki, or any other Kiva during religious events,
        nor at community events such as weddings.

        Both know that a Hopi leader stays at home, available
        to the community but Martin's trips abroad selling his
        message are well known and Dan is seldom seen in the
        village.

        Both are engaged in Paho making outside of religiously
        prescribed places and times.

        Persons not entitled to this ritual are learning from
        them and so are engaged in the mockery of original,
        accepted practices.

        Martin and Dan try to emulate Yukioma's resolve never
        to accept the Whiteman's goods.

        The Whitemen arrive daily at Martin's house with
        material goods.

        Dan seeks contributions over the internet.
	
   Note:  See Dan Evehema's message:
   
   URL: http://www.infomagic.com/~abyte/hopi/messages/help.html

        Thomas Banyacya, 
        Manuel Hoyungowa, 
        Rena Murillo,
        Emory Holmes

        and non-Hopis

            Katherine Chesire
                (founder of Touch the Earth Foundation),
            Thomas E.  Mails (author of Hotevilla,
                              The Hopi Survival Kit,
                              Native American Pathways,
                              Mystic Warriors of the Plains)
             and Roy Steevenz

        continue to seek contributions for Hotevilla,
        supposedly with the Elders' blessings.

        Do not send contributions to Hotevilla, on their behalf 
        or those of Caretaker's of Hotvela in Hopi and Hopi 
        Sinom.

        Also be wary of contributions to Hotevilla through,
        Don't Waste Arizona, Inc.

        The people of Hotevilla will confirm this information.

        Those from outside the community who continue to create
        conflict are in headlong collision with the community.

        Gratitude is extended to the non-Hopi friends who
        respected the closure and showed restraint although
        they had a long history of attending these events.

        Gratitude also goes out to those assisting with the
        distribution of this information.

        On file, Eleven (11) of fifteen (15)
        Wiwimkyam signatories to Tunatya.
        For more information call:
        520-734-2420

Hart Williams

for more information, see:

http://www.efn.org/~hartw/no1t.html


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hartw@efn.org (hwms) wrote:
> The Hopi have provably been on the mesas
> for 1000 years, and their forebears for much longer.

I have never heard anyone question Hopi rights to the village mesas.
The subject here is Big Mountain, not the village mesas.
What is the evidence that Hopi have ever inhabited Big Mountain?

> >If Navajo have no right to live in a
> >region because they have "only" been there 450 years, what right
> >does any white have to live anywhere in North America?
>
> This is a non-sequitur.

Think again.

Why such passionate fervor to remove Navajo from land their ancestors
alledgedly took from other Indians many centuries ago,
but such casual disinterest in removing Whites from land their ancestors
certainly took from Indians more recently?
Do you not see a disrepancy here based on race?

> I have rarely seen such unanimity of agreement on any subject:
> the Navajo have stolen Hopi land.
> the Hopi want their land back.

Nobody who was born on Big Mountain could possibly have stolen it.
If any theft occurred, it was in the distant past, not by any of the
people alive today who are being asked to pay the price.
This is not to deny that the Hopi have grievances and deserve justice,
only to note that the issue is not so simple as this characterization
portrays.

> Louise Benally (from whom Mr. Epp takes his marching orders)

This is entirely a scurrilous figment of your imagination.
The truth is that Louise Benally has never as yet communicated to me,
much less given "marching orders".
I speak for myself and do not claim to represent any Native people.

As for Hopi & Dineh Traditionals being small in number: within the borders
of the US, Indians of all kinds amount to 1% of the current population.
Does the fact they are so small a minority mean that Indians do not deserve
the right to practice their religion, and we should not pay attention to
what they say?

> Thomas Banyacya, Emory Holmes, et al are self-appointed
> "religious leaders" who are happy to "support" the Big Mountain case
> because they SOLICIT FUNDS FROM THE SAME SOURCES. I append the February
> press release from the religious council of Hotevilla, asking that
> these frauds be exposed.

Where is there anything in the press release you posted that says
Thomas Banyacya is a fraud?

When, where, and in what words has Thomas Banyacya claimed to be a
"religious leader"?

In everything I have seen and heard from him, he does not claim to be a
religious leader but claims to be a messenger and interpreter of the religious
leaders, and he is not self-appointed nor appointed by one person but
was appointed by the great meeting of leaders in 1948.

For example, in his 1992 address to the UN, he introduces himself thus:
"My name is Banyacya of the Wolf, Fox, and Coyote clan and I am a member of
the Hopi sovereign nation. Hopi in our language means a peaceful, kind, gentle,
truthful people.... In 1948, all traditional Hopi spiritual leaders met
and...selected four interpreters to carry their message of which I am the only
one still living today. At that time I was given a sacred prayer feather by the
spiritual leaders. I made a commitment to carry the Hopi message of peace and
deliver warnings from prophecies.... My mission was also to open the doors of
this great House of Mica [ie the UN] to native peoples. The Elders said to
knock four times..."

He does ask for funds to cover the modest expenses of travel necessary
to carry out his assignment. Last time I heard him speak, he said he did
not even have a bank account.
I can't find the booklet containing the traditional message that was
published to confirm whether Mr. Banyacya was involved in it, but I
remember that it was clearly marked "not to be sold".

> I'm still looking for answers.

So am I.

Why have the Hopi been so adamant about going after Big Mountain in
particular, which of all places, from what I've heard, Navajo have a
stronger claim and Hopi have a more tenuous claim?

Why have the Hopi not been going after sacred Hopi sites and entire
villages such as Moenkopi, which unquestionably should be theirs?

Why have the Hopi rejected repeated Navajo offers to work out land swaps
that would satisfy Hopi desire for land with less human suffering?

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