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bernhard@nativechild.com (Bernhard Michaelis) wrote:
> > Some of the people living on Big Mountain can trace their habitation of
> > that land back for 25 generations, longer than the USA has been in
> > existence.  But since 20 billion tons of coal are believed to lie under
> > Black Mesa, mining interests have been trying to get rid of them.
> Another one of these myths that has been going around for decades now.
> I never understood why this issue supposedly is a mining issue - go to both
> reservations and look around..you'll find the powerplants and the pollution
> on the Navajo reservation, not on Hopi

The Hopi have had coal-mining contracts with Peabody Coal since 1966.
Pollution from these mines has killed and sickened animals, plants, and people.
Pollutants found so far at levels above federal standards include arsenic,
cadmium, copper, chromium, lead, selenium, and other metals.
The mines are the subject of a Superfund investigation.

The Hopi Tribal Council has filed plans in Arizona Superior Court for a coal
mine on Big Mountain, a second slurry line, and a coal-fired power plant in
Hopi Partition Lands.
I'm having trouble understanding why denials from the press office should be
given greater weight than legal documents submitted in court.

People living on Big Mountain have found core holes and related drilling
equipment used to locate mineral deposits.

In a meeting that was supposed to be secret but some details leaked out,
Peabody Coal told the Hopi Tribal Council of plans for a new mine in Hopi
Partition Lands, and told them to complete the relocation.

The Navajo Tribal Council was originally constituted for the purpose of
facilitating mineral development. The Hopi Tribal Council was reconstituted for
the purpose of facilitating mineral development and filing land claim lawsuits.
Both were imposed by Washington with disregard for the prior sovereign
systems of governance.

The relocation law was written by John Boyden and congressional sponsor Wayne
Owens, who later went to work for Boyden's law firm, which had represented
Peabody Coal and moved into the Kennecott Copper Corporation Building; Peabody
Coal was a subsidiary of Kennecott at the time.
Harrison Loesch, one of the people who helped push the act through Congress,
later became a vice president at Peabody Coal, and subsequently became counsel
to the Relocation Commission.
Immediately after the act was signed into law, Jerry Verkler, who played a key
role in the bill's passage, was hired by Texas Eastern Transmission Corporation,
which was considering building a coal gasification plant on Black Mesa.
Rick Lavis, who also worked on the legislation, subsequently went to work for
El Paso Natural Gas Company, which was trying to negotiate leases on Black Mesa
for coal gasification.

Peabody Coal is sucking such astronomical amounts of water out of the land
that a USGS study projected the water table would drop 200 feet by the turn of
century. Water levels in some wells have already fallen more than 160 feet since
Peabody began pumping.
A document from the Hopi Tribe's Water Department projects drought within five
years for the outlying regions of the Navajo-Aquifer being depleted by Peabody.
Loss of water is a grave threat to the survival of land-based people in arid
places such as this.

> It always has been easier for companies to make contracts with Window Rock
> [Navajo] rather than with Hopi.

Not true.
The Hopi Tribal Council was the first to approve a coal exploitation lease, in
1961. The Navajo turned down a coal exploration proposal at that time.
In 1964 the Hopi Tribal Council approved a Peabody coal exploration permit.
A committee appointed by the Navajo Tribal Chairman also approved the permit but
it was then revoked because it did not have the approval of the Navajo Tribal
Council.
The Navajo approved the mining leases several months before the Hopi in 1966,
but during the time leading up to the passage of the relocation law in 1974,
the Washington Post reported that some Navajo "were saying threatening things
about closing down polluting power plants and requiring expensive reclamation of
strip-mined land", while "the relationship between the Hopi council and the
power companies became almost symbiotic", Hopi Tribal Chairman speeches were
written by an energy industry public relations firm, and the Hopi Tribal
Council was still under the influence of John Boyden, who "negotiated" the
original coal mining leases while simultaneously "representing" both the Hopi
Tribal Council and Peabody Coal.

When mineral interests first started dealing with the Hopi Tribal Council, they
had a problem: the Tribal Council did not have the power to grant mineral
leases, since its original constitution specifically allowed it only to prevent
the sale or lease of tribal land.  The Tribal Council refused to hold a
referendum on the subject because it did not want to face the power of the
traditionals, nor did it want the public to know that the most easily accessible
surface mineral was coal, which would result in strip mining.  Boyden and the
Hopi Tribal Council then found a loophole in their constitution permitting them
to exercise powers delegated by the Secretary of the Interior, who then quietly
granted them the power to lease mineral rights.  Soon after, the Tribal Council
began issuing permits.  In other words, the Hopi Tribal Council launched into
mineral development in contempt of the right of the Hopi people to even
be informed of what was going on, much less be involved in such momentous
decisions.

A Peabody official has stated that one reason for their interest in Indian
coal was the lack of tribal "sunshine laws" like those states have that require
public meetings as a prerequisite of mining decisions -- in other words they're
interested because deals can be cut in secret.
Hopi village leaders have been denied the right to even see the mining leases
after they've been signed, much less participate in decision-making.

We can hope the Hopi Tribal Council of today is or will become different from
the one that participated in all these actions. There is an encouraging sign:
a former Hopi Tribal Council chairman is calling for the shutdown of Peabody
mining because of what they're doing to the water.

But we are in the dark about what's really going on, and are sorely in need
of sunshine.
If the Hopi Tribal Council had an open democratic process, with a prohibition
on secret dealings and a guarantee of public access to all documents, meetings,
and decision-making, then their denials regarding current or future mining might
have some credibility.
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bernhard@nativechild.com (Bernhard Michaelis) wrote:
> Many of the Dine/Navajo people who live in the area depend on Black Mesa
> coal for their livelihood: Some of them have jobs at the Peabody Coal...
> i'm just fed up with this one sided information of outsiders.

Traditional Dine/Navajo people who live in the area depend on Black Mesa
_land_ for their livelihood.
Why should the rights of those living off the coal or other activities
destructive to the Earth take precedence over those living on the land and
maintaining its integrity?

The relocation law was written by outsider John Boyden and passed by outsiders
(US Congress).
The partition boundary approved by outsiders (US government) happens to
closely match the boundary written for a previous law by John Boyden after
consultation with Peabody Coal, which is owned by outsiders.
The Hopi Tribal Council was set up by a law imposed by outsiders without
consultation with the Hopi people (US Congress Indian Reorganization Act).
The Hopi Tribal Council Constitution was developed in consultation with
Hopi people but was actually written by an outsider (Oliver La Farge).
The program of forced conversion and indoctrination into white culture by
armed kidnapping of Indian children and hauling them away to boarding schools,
where they were punished for practicing their native language, culture, or
religion, and kept away from their parents for as long as four years at a time,
was imposed by outsiders (US government).
Hopi religion was outlawed by outsiders (US Congress Dawes Act).
The 1882 reservation, on which the current Hopi Reservation and JUA/HPL/NPL
are based, was imposed by outsiders (US Presidential decree)
without consultation with the Hopi people, much less consent.

Every one of these actions by outsiders has been, and continues to be,
opposed by the traditional Hopi and their traditional system of governance,
which has been in operation since centuries before the existence of the USA.

1936: Hopi people overwhelmingly boycott establishment of Hopi Tribal Council
by the US BIA.

1949: Hopi leaders send a letter to the US President opposing any land claim,
since the land already belonged to the Hopi, opposing any mineral leases, since
the land is sacred, opposing any attempt to impose state jurisdiction, since the
Hopi are a sovereign nation, and opposing a government program providing money
for "development", since the Hopi consider themselves to be self-supporting.

1951 and again 1952: Traditional Hopi protest filing of land claim by John
Boyden and the Hopi Tribal Council, under a process which provides for
extinguishment of aboriginal title and does not provide for return of land
taken.

1964: Hopi Traditionals file lawsuit against the Tribal Council over permits to
Peabody Coal and other mineral companies.

1971: Hopi Traditionals file lawsuit against the legality of the Hopi Tribal
Council's mineral leases.

1972: Hopi Traditionals protest Congressman Steiger's proposed bill for
removal of Navajo from Big Mountain.

1976: Hopi Traditional speaks out against relocation program (quoted below).

1985: Hopi religious leaders express their opposition to relocation to the
President's representative, and host an all-day kiva meeting of Hopi and Navajo
elders, in which they reaffirm their joint opposition to relocation and reaffirm
that no dispute exists between the tribes.

1986: Official Hopi Traditional spokesman goes on record in the film Broken
Rainbow saying the dispute is not so much between Hopi and Dineh but between
traditional and pro-mining interests within the tribes.

1986: Hopi and Navajo Traditional leaders meet and jointly call for an end to
relocation and declare their resolve to continue sharing the land as they have
for centuries and to overcome the divisions which the US & tribal council
governments have created.

1992: Official Hopi Traditional spokesman speaks before the United Nations and
says "No one should be relocated from their sacred homelands in this Western
Hemisphere or anywhere in the world. Acts of forced relocation such as Public
Law 93-531 in the United States must be repealed."

1995: Hopi elder testifies in a court case against Peabody mining, and says
"There is no land dispute between traditional Hopi and Dineh people."

> Another one of these myths that has been going around for decades now.

The false myth that has been going around for decades now
is the idea that this is a conflict between Hopi and Navajo.
The conflict is between modern/commodity-based/resource-development/economic
ways of life and traditional/land-based/sacred-stewardship/religious ways of
life, or in particular, between industrialists and their progressive Indian
partners on the one hand, and traditionals, both Hopi and Navajo, and their
supporters on the other hand.

I would also note that the very idea of exclusive ownership of fixed boundaries
is embedded in European culture but runs against the grain of the foundations
of many Native cultures, some of which consider it sacriligious to cut our
living Mother into pieces.

It was David Monongye, traditional _Hopi_ leader, who wrote:
"Now there is a strip mine at our sacred Black Mesa. They are removing coal and
burning it to make electricity for the big cities of the Southwest. Just
recently, uranium has been discovered on our sacred lands. In order to gain
access to this mineral, the federal government has a plan to forcibly remove
all the residents from the land. These people are thousands of traditional
Navajos who share this land with the Hopi. We know we must resist the removal
of these people because, if they are not there to guard this sacred land, the
miners will move in and destroy everything."

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In article <33dd6feb.10197705@news.idiom.com>, NO_SPAM_for7gen@idiom.com (Walter Epp) says:
>
>bernhard@nativechild.com (Bernhard Michaelis) wrote:
>> Many of the Dine/Navajo people who live in the area depend on Black Mesa
>> coal for their livelihood: Some of them have jobs at the Peabody Coal...
>> i'm just fed up with this one sided information of outsiders.
>
>Traditional Dine/Navajo people who live in the area depend on Black Mesa
>_land_ for their livelihood.
>Why should the rights of those living off the coal or other activities
>destructive to the Earth take precedence over those living on the land and
>maintaining its integrity?

First, over 900 Navajo are employed at Peabody, and only perhaps 25
Hopi, which is an abrogation of the original lease. 

Second, the so-called "traditional" Navajo of Big Mountain have
caused over $26 million in damage (according to the Ninth Circuit
Decision of July 7 -- which has NOT been covered by the media)
The Ninth Circuit found that the sheep run by these people overgrazed
the land at SEVEN times what the land could sustain. In other words:
EVEN were not Peabody mining, these Navajo Epp defends as so 
"Earth-oriented" were destroying the land by living on it!

And the Navajo Nation is going to have to pay $26 million in 
damages simply to restore the damage to the range at normal
market prices!

The Ninth Circuit court also noted that these "traditional" Navajo
had, between 1962 and 1972, mutiliated the Hopis cattle and intimidated
any Hopi who even tried to enter the HPL.

>The relocation law was written by outsider John Boyden and passed by outsiders
>(US Congress).
>The partition boundary approved by outsiders (US government) happens to
>closely match the boundary written for a previous law by John Boyden after
>consultation with Peabody Coal, which is owned by outsiders.
>The Hopi Tribal Council was set up by a law imposed by outsiders without
>consultation with the Hopi people (US Congress Indian Reorganization Act).
>The Hopi Tribal Council Constitution was developed in consultation with
>Hopi people but was actually written by an outsider (Oliver La Farge).
>The program of forced conversion and indoctrination into white culture by
>armed kidnapping of Indian children and hauling them away to boarding schools,
>where they were punished for practicing their native language, culture, or
>religion, and kept away from their parents for as long as four years at a time,
>was imposed by outsiders (US government).
>Hopi religion was outlawed by outsiders (US Congress Dawes Act).
>The 1882 reservation, on which the current Hopi Reservation and JUA/HPL/NPL
>are based, was imposed by outsiders (US Presidential decree)
>without consultation with the Hopi people, much less consent.

The above is true, but it is also irrelevant. I quote the Chair
of Sarah Lawrence College's Department of Anthropology this summer:

"The Hopi Tribal Council (or "Tribe") is formally supported by 
about half the villages, though even anti-Council traditionalists
rely on the numerous benefits it administers. Many people feel 
they were duped by the Council's attorneys when the original
[Peabody] leases were signed in the 1960s (there are independent 
indications of backroom deals) and that some Tribal leaders were
coopted by Peabody. But this is scarcely a factional issue. Hopis
directly involved with the Council, including the last two 
Chairmen (Ferrell Secakuku and Vernon Masayeva) have strongly
opposed the coal leases in lieu of an alternative method of
transporting the coal. Hopis of all factions -- from traditionalist
Kikmongwis (village chiefs)to modernist technocrats have been 
unianimous in their opposition  to the use of pristine groundwater
to transport coal and in their disbelief in Peabody's denials
that the pumping affects the springs."

and ...

"... an escalating series of letters from Hopi 
individuals and officials (both traditional 
leaders and Tribal Council chairs), petitions
signed by several hundred Hopis, protests in
public hearings, dissenting interpretations by
independent geologists and repeated refusal by
the Tribal council to sanction the Department 
of the Interior's renewal of the mining lease
have fallen on deaf ears. Flat rebuttals to Hopi
protests continue to be retailed by Peabody and 
Hanson representatives ... Hopis now say Peabody has 
aligned itself with the Navajo Nation and ignores 
Hopi interests, a position borne out in employment 
figures."

If the Hopis are so "in the pocket" of Peabody, how does Mr. Epp
explain this? (Trust me, it'll be a slick rationalization).

>Every one of these actions by outsiders has been, and continues to be,
>opposed by the traditional Hopi and their traditional system of governance,
>which has been in operation since centuries before the existence of the USA.
>
>1936: Hopi people overwhelmingly boycott establishment of Hopi Tribal Council
>by the US BIA.

Sadly, not true. Even were it, it's irrelevant.

>1949: Hopi leaders send a letter to the US President opposing any land claim,
>since the land already belonged to the Hopi, opposing any mineral leases, since
>the land is sacred, opposing any attempt to impose state jurisdiction, since the
>Hopi are a sovereign nation, and opposing a government program providing money
>for "development", since the Hopi consider themselves to be self-supporting.
>
>1951 and again 1952: Traditional Hopi protest filing of land claim by John
>Boyden and the Hopi Tribal Council, under a process which provides for
>extinguishment of aboriginal title and does not provide for return of land
>taken.
>
>1964: Hopi Traditionals file lawsuit against the Tribal Council over permits to
>Peabody Coal and other mineral companies.
>
>1971: Hopi Traditionals file lawsuit against the legality of the Hopi Tribal
>Council's mineral leases.
>
>1972: Hopi Traditionals protest Congressman Steiger's proposed bill for
>removal of Navajo from Big Mountain.
>
>1976: Hopi Traditional speaks out against relocation program (quoted below).
>
>1985: Hopi religious leaders express their opposition to relocation to the
>President's representative, and host an all-day kiva meeting of Hopi and Navajo
>elders, in which they reaffirm their joint opposition to relocation and reaffirm
>that no dispute exists between the tribes.
>
>1986: Official Hopi Traditional spokesman goes on record in the film Broken
>Rainbow saying the dispute is not so much between Hopi and Dineh but between
>traditional and pro-mining interests within the tribes.


What's really sad here is Epp's racism. You see, the Hopi live
in 1990, and they HAVE adapted. The Tribal Council has adapted.
But it's not in Epp's (or Big Mountain's) vested interest to
allow the Hopi a voice, so they DENY 10,000 Hopi a voice, and
dig through old Tribal garbage heaps, and find corrupt "traditionals"
who will back them up. The racism? That Walter Epp or Louise Benally
has ANY RIGHT to decide who is and isn't a Hopi.

I don't have that right, and neither do you. You see, the mask
has slipped. If it's the HOPI that disagree with Epp, the con
is over. So it's always "Peabody Coal." Well, the Hopi people
and the Tribal Council have their problems with Peabody Coal.
But they would also LIKE THEIR LAND BACK.

Given Mr. Epp's eloquent elicudation on the evil that White
Meddling has caused the Hopi, shouldn't he just SHUT UP?
Shouldn't the Hopi get their land back? 

Oh, we were there in June. NOT A SHOVELFUL of Hopi land is
being mined, although the stripmine on the Navajo side boggles
the imagination. Shouldn't Mr. Epp be deciding who is and isn't
an "Authentic" Navajo, and LEAVING the Hopi ALONE?

See previous post on ""phony religious leaders." Ask what that
"Traditional" spokesman's name was.

>1986: Hopi and Navajo Traditional leaders meet and jointly call for an end to
>relocation and declare their resolve to continue sharing the land as they have
>for centuries and to overcome the divisions which the US & tribal council
>governments have created.

See previous post on ""phony religious leaders." Ask what that
"Traditional" spokesman's name was.
>
>1992: Official Hopi Traditional spokesman speaks before the United Nations and
>says "No one should be relocated from their sacred homelands in this Western
>Hemisphere or anywhere in the world. Acts of forced relocation such as Public
>Law 93-531 in the United States must be repealed."
Thomas Banyacya.
>
>1995: Hopi elder testifies in a court case against Peabody mining, and says
>"There is no land dispute between traditional Hopi and Dineh people."

Thomas Banyacya

>> Another one of these myths that has been going around for decades now.
>
>The false myth that has been going around for decades now
>is the idea that this is a conflict between Hopi and Navajo.
>The conflict is between modern/commodity-based/resource-development/economic
>ways of life and traditional/land-based/sacred-stewardship/religious ways of
>life, or in particular, between industrialists and their progressive Indian
>partners on the one hand, and traditionals, both Hopi and Navajo, and their
>supporters on the other hand.

No. The false myth is that this is NOT about Navajo and Hopi.
The false myth is that this is about the Government and Peabody.
Why? Because the Big Mountain Group knows that you WILL NOT 
send them money if it's 250,000 Navajos beating the crap out
of 10,000 Hopi. So, to make themselves the injured parties,
this mythology has been foisted and foisted and foisted.

As Bernhard notes, all you have to do is GO to the Hopi
mesas and ask. They want their land back. They know
that the Navajo stole their land. The so-called 
"traditional" Navajo. Well, that IS a Navajo tradition, all
right, but most of the Navajo I've ever known were trying
to put their reputation in the Southwest behind them. Not
the Big Mountain group, who now present themselves as
"Defenders of Sacred Earth" and "Nonviolent."

That, to be blunt, it a crock, Mr. Epp.

Where has the money gone? Literally millions of dollars have
gone to Big Mountain groups, but where has it gone? Perhaps
Mr. Epp could enlighten us on that subject.


>I would also note that the very idea of exclusive ownership of fixed boundaries
>is embedded in European culture but runs against the grain of the foundations
>of many Native cultures, some of which consider it sacriligious to cut our
>living Mother into pieces.

Yes, but not the Hopi culture, which has very specific sacred boundary
markers. Since 1868 (the Navajo release from Bosque Redondo) the Hopi
have lost over 90% of their ancestral lands. Mostly to the Navajo,
and this is only the latest round. 

Again, Mr. Epp twists the facts to suit his racist needs.


>It was David Monongye, traditional _Hopi_ leader, who wrote:
>"Now there is a strip mine at our sacred Black Mesa. They are removing coal and
>burning it to make electricity for the big cities of the Southwest. Just
>recently, uranium has been discovered on our sacred lands. In order to gain
>access to this mineral, the federal government has a plan to forcibly remove
>all the residents from the land. These people are thousands of traditional
>Navajos who share this land with the Hopi. We know we must resist the removal
>of these people because, if they are not there to guard this sacred land, the
>miners will move in and destroy everything."

First, David Monongye is dead. Second, his interpreter and
protogee was ... Thomas Banyacya! 

Mr. Epp would do well to try to FIND the truth, rather than
distorting it to fit his needs. I am appalled to see this
self-centered, self-righteous White Racist using Hopi 
history as a means to forwarding his own anti-Hopi agenda.

This is the gravest and lowest insult to the Hopi of all.

Hart Williams
************************************
ra-cism (n.) 
1. The belief that race accounts for differences 
in human character or ability or that a particular race is superior 
to others
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race 
- rac� ist adj. & n.
  -- The American Heritage Dictionary 3rd ed. 1996
******************************************************


For more information:

http://www.efn.org/~hartw/no1t.html


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In article <33dc6e16.9734797@news.idiom.com>, NO_SPAM_for7gen@idiom.com (Walter Epp) says:
>
>bernhard@nativechild.com (Bernhard Michaelis) wrote:
>> > Some of the people living on Big Mountain can trace their habitation of
>> > that land back for 25 generations, longer than the USA has been in
>> > existence.  But since 20 billion tons of coal are believed to lie under
>> > Black Mesa, mining interests have been trying to get rid of them.
>> Another one of these myths that has been going around for decades now.
>> I never understood why this issue supposedly is a mining issue - go to both
>> reservations and look around..you'll find the powerplants and the pollution
>> on the Navajo reservation, not on Hopi
>
>The Hopi have had coal-mining contracts with Peabody Coal since 1966.
>Pollution from these mines has killed and sickened animals, plants, and people.
>Pollutants found so far at levels above federal standards include arsenic,
>cadmium, copper, chromium, lead, selenium, and other metals.
>The mines are the subject of a Superfund investigation.

Yes, although the May EPA review gave the Black Mesa mine a
passing grade with flying colors. 

Mr. Epp confuses the Kayenta mine, which, you will note is
not near the Big Mountain group, and is, therefore, not interesting
to them. Certainly it is in EVERYONE's interests to shut down
the pumping of the aquifer, and to make certain that the mining is
not poisoning people or animals. 

But I categorically deny Mr. Epp's assertion that it is the
"Hopi Tribal Council" that is the villain. Indeed, the Navajo
Nation is much more culpable IF the problems are as Mr. Epp 
states they are.

But Mr. Epp doesn't have a problem with the Navajo Nation (who
initiated, after all, mining on Black Mesa). No, he engages
in demonization of the Hopi so that more White people can be
conned into sending money to the Big Mountain group. How much
money? Well, at the University of Colorado, just this spring, 
over $15,000 was collected for their annual "caravan." 

"Big Mountain" support groups operate in most of the major
US cities, funnelling funds through an unending stream of
501(c)(3) charitable organizations.

Where does that money go?

Interestingly, this is the "new" Big Mountain SDN/Dineh Alliance
strategy: connect up with "environmental" groups. Right now,
Lawrence Altsisi, trespasser and Big Mountain "poster boy"
of the month -- who was conveniently NOT on his property when
he knew that the Hopi Rangers were coming to impound his illegal
sheep -- is on the internet pleading for funds to attend an
"environmental" conference in Montana in early August!

Why do you suppose that is? To solicit funds!

And even though the Church Rock, NM radioactive spill took place
in 1979, the Big Mountain "environmentally born-again" activists
only discovered it four months ago!

Why? 

Because some relocatees are going to the Sanders, AZ area,
47.1 direct miles from Church Rock, and further downstream on
the Rio Puerco! Not a word is heard, again, about the giant
Uranium tailings pile in downtown Shiprock, NM! Again, why
not?

Because it doesn't serve the SDN/Big Mountain's needs.
>
>The Hopi Tribal Council has filed plans in Arizona Superior Court for a coal
>mine on Big Mountain, a second slurry line, and a coal-fired power plant in
>Hopi Partition Lands.
>I'm having trouble understanding why denials from the press office should be
>given greater weight than legal documents submitted in court.

Put up or shut up, Mr. Epp. There IS a 50-year moratorium in effect
for mineral extraction and exploration on HPL at present, so what
is the effect even if true? 

Frankly, I don't believe it. The Hopi are fighting as hard as they
can to shut down the FIRST slurry line, or at least have a
pipeline built from Lake Powell so that the D and N aquifers
are NO LONGER being depleted! This is something that affects
ALL residents of Black Mesa, but again, the SDN/Big Mountain
has a "hidden" agenda that doesn't care about this issue. It's
just a way of making more money.

Has Mr. Epp ever mentioned, during his racist diatribes against
the Hopi, that only 36 persons are affected by failure to sign
the accomodation agreement? 

>People living on Big Mountain have found core holes and related drilling
>equipment used to locate mineral deposits.

NPL, perhaps. If on HPL, it's against the LAW! But then, Peabody
Coal employs 900 Navajo and less than 25 Hopi, so take a good guess
who might have broken the law in this regard.

>In a meeting that was supposed to be secret but some details leaked out,
>Peabody Coal told the Hopi Tribal Council of plans for a new mine in Hopi
>Partition Lands, and told them to complete the relocation.

You'd better provide evidence, Mr. Epp.

>The Navajo Tribal Council was originally constituted for the purpose of
>facilitating mineral development. The Hopi Tribal Council was reconstituted for
>the purpose of facilitating mineral development and filing land claim lawsuits.
>Both were imposed by Washington with disregard for the prior sovereign
>systems of governance.

Please see previous post. This is true, but specious, spurious and 
having nothing to do with the price of tea in 1997.
>
>The relocation law was written by John Boyden and congressional sponsor Wayne
>Owens, who later went to work for Boyden's law firm, which had represented
>Peabody Coal and moved into the Kennecott Copper Corporation Building; Peabody
>Coal was a subsidiary of Kennecott at the time.
>Harrison Loesch, one of the people who helped push the act through Congress,
>later became a vice president at Peabody Coal, and subsequently became counsel
>to the Relocation Commission.
>Immediately after the act was signed into law, Jerry Verkler, who played a key
>role in the bill's passage, was hired by Texas Eastern Transmission Corporation,
>which was considering building a coal gasification plant on Black Mesa.
>Rick Lavis, who also worked on the legislation, subsequently went to work for
>El Paso Natural Gas Company, which was trying to negotiate leases on Black Mesa
>for coal gasification.

Yes, Mr. Epp read, as did I, the "expose" in Phoenix' NEW TIMES, online,
except that these facts have been known for nearly thirty years, AND
the revelation is ONLY to Mr. Epp. The Hopi, as mentioned in the previous
post, have been met with deaf ears by Peabody. Don't try to arrogate
some self-righteous indignation to yourself, Mr. Epp, when you don't
live there, haven't done a damned thing about the above, and aren't
even a Hopi -- the ONLY group who's tried to do anything about this
sad situation with Peabody and the D and N aquifers!

What White man arrogance!


>Peabody Coal is sucking such astronomical amounts of water out of the land
>that a USGS study projected the water table would drop 200 feet by the turn of
>century. Water levels in some wells have already fallen more than 160 feet since
>Peabody began pumping.

See above.

>A document from the Hopi Tribe's Water Department projects drought within five
>years for the outlying regions of the Navajo-Aquifer being depleted by Peabody.
>Loss of water is a grave threat to the survival of land-based people in arid
>places such as this.

Right. And the Hopi can drink sand while your "traditional" Navajo
despoilers of the land only drink water? Get real, Mr. Epp. The Hopi
are MORE concerned about the aquifer than the Big Mountain/SDN
group, and they, in turn are MORE concerned than yourself.

Stop this racist attack on the Hopi!
>
>> It always has been easier for companies to make contracts with Window Rock
>> [Navajo] rather than with Hopi.
>
>Not true.

Not true.

>The Hopi Tribal Council was the first to approve a coal exploitation lease, in
>1961. The Navajo turned down a coal exploration proposal at that time.
>In 1964 the Hopi Tribal Council approved a Peabody coal exploration permit.
>A committee appointed by the Navajo Tribal Chairman also approved the permit but
>it was then revoked because it did not have the approval of the Navajo Tribal
>Council.

The initial lease was negotiated by P. MacDonald (Navajo Tribal
Chairman, convicted, 1992). The Hopi signed on reluctantly in 1965
or 1966. But, even IF this were true, WHY won't the Navajo Tribal
Council negotiate in good faith to build a pipeline from Lake
Powell to stop the destruction of the aquifer? Why haven't Hopi
requests to IMMEDIATELY do something about the water situation
been responded to?

And what are you asking for, Epp? If to preserve the aquifer,
I'm all for you. If to promote the narrow Big Mountain/SDN 
agenda, then WHAT is it you want? And how will allowing these
squatters to continue living above the law, and despoiling the
range on Hopi land with overgrazing: how will this end coal mining
or depletion of the aquifers?

>The Navajo approved the mining leases several months before the Hopi in 1966,
>but during the time leading up to the passage of the relocation law in 1974,
>the Washington Post reported that some Navajo "were saying threatening things
>about closing down polluting power plants and requiring expensive reclamation of
>strip-mined land", while "the relationship between the Hopi council and the
>power companies became almost symbiotic", Hopi Tribal Chairman speeches were
>written by an energy industry public relations firm, and the Hopi Tribal
>Council was still under the influence of John Boyden, who "negotiated" the
>original coal mining leases while simultaneously "representing" both the Hopi
>Tribal Council and Peabody Coal.

This is from NEW TIMES. But Mr. Epp's selective 'scholarship' seems
to lack the requisite thought to make sense of plagiarized facts.
Again: what does this have to do with 1997?

And, what delight do you take in slandering a dead man?
Boyden can't defend himself, and the case is moot. The Hopi
realized that he had not acted in their behalf long ago.

>
>When mineral interests first started dealing with the Hopi Tribal Council, they
>had a problem: the Tribal Council did not have the power to grant mineral
>leases, since its original constitution specifically allowed it only to prevent
>the sale or lease of tribal land.  The Tribal Council refused to hold a
>referendum on the subject because it did not want to face the power of the
>traditionals, nor did it want the public to know that the most easily accessible
>surface mineral was coal, which would result in strip mining.  Boyden and the
>Hopi Tribal Council then found a loophole in their constitution permitting them
>to exercise powers delegated by the Secretary of the Interior, who then quietly
>granted them the power to lease mineral rights.  Soon after, the Tribal Council
>began issuing permits.  In other words, the Hopi Tribal Council launched into
>mineral development in contempt of the right of the Hopi people to even
>be informed of what was going on, much less be involved in such momentous
>decisions.

Again, what value does this racist slander of the Tribal Council 
have? Fact: nearly everyone you self-righteously accuse is dead.
Convenient, isn't it, Mr. Epp? Only occasionally does your racist
agenda slip: that ONLY YOU can decide who is and isn't a Hopi.

The current Council represents the people. That fact is irrefutable,
whether you accept it or not.

>A Peabody official has stated that one reason for their interest in Indian
>coal was the lack of tribal "sunshine laws" like those states have that require
>public meetings as a prerequisite of mining decisions -- in other words they're
>interested because deals can be cut in secret.
>Hopi village leaders have been denied the right to even see the mining leases
>after they've been signed, much less participate in decision-making.

Peabody's bad news. But Peabody's also NOT the issue on Big Mountain.
Navajo ravaging of HPL grazing land and refusal to accept ANY law IS.

>We can hope the Hopi Tribal Council of today is or will become different from
>the one that participated in all these actions. There is an encouraging sign:
>a former Hopi Tribal Council chairman is calling for the shutdown of Peabody
>mining because of what they're doing to the water.

How much more patronizing can you be to the Hopi, Mr. Epp? 
Are you going to continue to act like the Mormon missionaries,
who still go, two by two, door-to-door on the three mesas, 
trying to win converts? Or are you going to decide "for their
own good" how the Hopi should conduct their affairs?

Or perhaps you would like to cede them a sovereignty that
do-gooders like yourself have yet to allow the Hopi Tribe.

Your entire supercilious and superior attitude is no different
than that of General Custer, only instead of killing 'em, you're
going to convert them to YOUR concept of stewardship of the Earth.

Take it from me, Mr. Epp, I was sitting in Arnold Taylor's office
a month ago, and he is a man who loves the earth in ways that
you and I have never imagined. And a man who understands
"stewardship" of the land in a manner that is beyond question.
Taylor is the Manager of the Hopi Department of Natural Resources.
Perhaps you would like to drive to Kykutsmovi and slander him to 
his face that he doesn't understand the "land" as well as you
do. He's in the office building to the right of the flagpole.

Tell him Hart Williams sent you.

>But we are in the dark about what's really going on, and are sorely in need
>of sunshine.

You're not much more a poet than you are a thinker, Epp.

>If the Hopi Tribal Council had an open democratic process, with a prohibition
>on secret dealings and a guarantee of public access to all documents, meetings,
>and decision-making, then their denials regarding current or future mining might
>have some credibility.

How the heck would you know? You don't. Therefore this is simply another
clueless rhetorical attack. Another manifestation of SDN-inspired racism.

And, quite frankly, from an organization that regularly characterizes
the Hopi as "genocidal," engaged in "ethnic cleansing" and "torture"
"racism" is actually a very mild -- albeit precise -- term.

Hart Williams
*************************************
ra-cism (n.) 
1. The belief that race accounts for differences 
in human character or ability or that a particular 
race is superior to others
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race 
- rac� ist adj. & n.
  -- The American Heritage Dictionary 3rd ed. 1996
*****************************************
for more information:

http://www.efn.org/~hartw/no1t.html

> The Hopi have had coal-mining contracts with Peabody Coal since 1966.
> Pollution from these mines has killed and sickened animals, plants, and people.
> Pollutants found so far at levels above federal standards include arsenic,
> cadmium, copper, chromium, lead, selenium, and other metals.
> The mines are the subject of a Superfund investigation.

I don't see why the Hopi don't mine the stuff themselves

Walter Epp wrote:
> 

> hartw@efn.org (hwms) wrote:
<snip>


> > Yes, but not the Hopi culture, which has very specific sacred boundary markers.
> 
> This is something I've seen vague references to but not any specifics,
> and would like to learn more about.
> Where exactly are these boundaries?

While the "exact" locations of the shrines are, of course, secret, their
general locations were detailed in an article in a 1980 National
Geographic, August I believe.
 
See also the chapter in Jake and Susan Page's book "Hopi."

tk

hartw@efn.org (hwms) wrote:
> And even though the Church Rock, NM radioactive spill took place
> in 1979, the Big Mountain "environmentally born-again" activists
> only discovered it four months ago!

You are misinformed. What is your source for this?

Quoting from the Spring 1986 issue of Big Mountain News:
"some of the new lands are contaminated with radioactive water from
United Nuclear".

Quoting from the November 1987 issue of Mother Jones:
"In 1979, in the largest release of low-level radioactive waste in US
history, an earthen dam at Church Rock, New Mexico, collapsed and sent a
flood of water from a uranium tailings pond down the Rio Puerco, which
flows through the area. To make matters worse, several nearby uranium mines
were routinely releasing contaminated water into the Rio Puerco up until
last year. This past March, the US Geological Survey said it had found
radiation levels in excess of recommended levels in 3 of the 14 wells it
tested in and around the New Lands."

I don't have time to enter the detailed article in the Winter 1987 issue of Big
Mountain News; here are a few excerpts:
"the Rio Puerco remains grossly contaminated with levels in excess of 1500
picocuries per liter of gross alpha and beta radiation in 1985 at Chambers, AZ.
Chambers is surrounded by the New Lands. 1500 picocuries exceeds Arizona
drinking water standards and federal EPA standards by a factor of 50."
"Of 51 wells used presently by local communities on or near the New Lands,
more than half (26) tap the alluvial aquifer of the Rio Puerco. Many wells
drawing on the alluvium along the Puerco exceeded Ariona and USEPA drinking
water standards for radionuclide contamination in 1979 following the
Churchrock disaster and experience elevated levels of radioactivity today.
It's been over one year since Navajo Hopi Indian Relocation Commission
(NHIRC) chairman Ralph Watkins said he was 'thoroughly convinced that there
is no problem at all with the water'. The investigation which convinced
Watkins that there was no problem was conducted by Western Technologies.
The president of the firm, James Warren, just happened to be a long time
friend of Watkins. Bruce Scott, a chemical engineer and author of the
report, later characterized his own study as a 'quick and dirty kind of
investigation'. In October 1986, Chris Basavi, executive director of the
NHIRC, contradicted chairman Watkins about Rio Puerco: 'I don't think the
assertion's ever been made that the water is safe'."

> Not a word is heard, again, about the giant Uranium tailings pile
> in downtown Shiprock, NM! Again, why not?

You are misinformed. What is your source for this assertion?

Quoting from the Spring 1985 issue of Big Mountain News:
"US Senator Pete Domenici and Navajo Tribal Chairman Peterson Zah recently
attended groundbreaking ceremonies for a $12 million uranium mill clean-up
project.... 1.5 million tons of ore were processed and left in contaminated
waste piles covering 72 acres next to the San Juan River near Shiprock NM.
A federal-tribal coalition began action after 20 years of unanswered complaints
by the Navajos....
Chairman Zah urged further action on other uranium sites in Tuba City, Mexican
Hat, and Monument Valley...."
--
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hartw@efn.org (hwms) wrote:
> NO_SPAM_for7gen@idiom.com (Walter Epp) says:
> >The Hopi Tribal Council has filed plans in Arizona Superior Court for a coal
> >mine on Big Mountain, a second slurry line, and a coal-fired power plant in
> >Hopi Partition Lands.
>
> Put up or shut up, Mr. Epp. There IS a 50-year moratorium in effect
> for mineral extraction and exploration on HPL at present

Elsewhere you said the moratorium was 20 years. Has it been changed?
When did the clock start on this moratorium, and when does it expire?
What are its specific terms?
That would be wonderful if it sticks, but what's to keep it from being
repealed as soon as, for example, Peabody were to propose to shut down
the slurry in exchange for additional mines?

> Frankly, I don't believe it.

I invite you to see for yourself.  The most relevant page is titled "Hopi
Reservation Mineral Development Plan, Map F" in a court document titled
"Statement of Claims of the Hopi Tribe", in court case #6417 "in re General
Adjudication of All Rights to Use Water in the Little Colorado River System
and Source", Superior Court of Arizona, County of Apache.
If Arizona is out of the way, I think you can get a copy from Media Island
at mii@olywa.net or from Indian Law Resource Center, 602 North Ewing Street,
Helena, MT 59601, ilrc@mt.net, 406-449-2006.

> >People living on Big Mountain have found core holes and related drilling
> >equipment used to locate mineral deposits.
>
> NPL, perhaps. If on HPL, it's against the LAW!

Quoting from PROJECT underGROUND Drillbits & Tailings March 21, 1997:
"Ruth Benally, a Dineh medicine woman, has real reason to wonder about
Peabody's professed lack of interest in Big Mountain. Recently she went out
to her prayer site, only to find it demarcated and littered with surveying
and core sampling equipment."

> >In a meeting that was supposed to be secret but some details leaked out,
> >Peabody Coal told the Hopi Tribal Council of plans for a new mine in Hopi
> >Partition Lands, and told them to complete the relocation.
>
> You'd better provide evidence, Mr. Epp.

Quoting from Akwesasne Notes Spring 1989:
"Peabody Coal Company is planning to strip mine an additional 54,000 acres
on the Hopi Partitioned Lands.... According to minutes of a secret meeting
obtained by Akwesasne Notes, the project is being designed to be on-line in
eight to twelve years."
[let's see, what's 1989 + 8?]
"The coal company officials estimated that 300-500 million tons of coal lie
just beneath the surface of the proposed site located in an undisclosed
area 'just south' of the existing Black Mesa leases."
"At the closed meeting, the company's Executive Vice President virtually
cautioned the Hopi officials to conclude the relocation in order to avoid a
community-based challenge to their exploration plans. 'We don't want to be
involved in the Navajo-Hopi land dispute' he said."

> WHY won't the Navajo Tribal
> Council negotiate in good faith to build a pipeline from Lake
> Powell to stop the destruction of the aquifer? Why haven't Hopi
> requests to IMMEDIATELY do something about the water situation
> been responded to?

Why should _either_ tribal council pay a penny to make up for damage
perpetrated by Peabody?

Requests to whom?
It was my impression that the slurry line was on the Hopi side.
Does the Navajo Tribal Council have any power to shut it down?
Peabody is making millions in profits and is unlikely to budge unless
forced.
I heard just the other day that Secretary of Interior Babbit has a conflict
of interest from his investments in the Salt River Project, which is
supplied by Peabody. If this is true, shouldn't we all be able to make a
fuss to demand he recuse himself and let someone else make the ruling that
the water supply is threatened and therefore under the terms of the lease
Peabody is required to find an alternative at its "sole expense"?

> Only occasionally does your racist
> agenda slip: that ONLY YOU can decide who is and isn't a Hopi.

Please don't shove words into my mouth.
I have never asserted that only I can decide who is and isn't a Hopi.

> how will allowing these squatters to continue living above the law, and
> despoiling the range on Hopi land with overgrazing:
> how will this end coal mining

There are logistical and public relations difficulties with mining land
that people are living on.  If the land is emptied of people, it is open
to exploitation.

> Lawrence Altsisi, trespasser and Big Mountain "poster boy"
> of the month -- who was conveniently NOT on his property when
> he knew that the Hopi Rangers were coming

At that time, Mr. Altsisi was pleading his case at a Land Use Commission
hearing.
What is your source for the assertion he knew the Hopi Rangers were coming?
How do we know it wasn't the other way around: the Hopi Rangers went out
then because they knew he was tied up at the hearing?

> Don't try to arrogate some self-righteous indignation to yourself,
> Mr. Epp, when you don't live there, haven't done a damned thing about
> the above, and aren't even a Hopi

The righteous indignation in your posts comes through deafeningly
loud and clear.

Have you ever lived there?
According to the credits for the article you wrote in the Hopi Tribal
Council's newspaper of July 11, 1997, you are currently in Eugene Oregon.
According to your web site, you are not Hopi but are of European descent.

By the way, in that article, you wrote that as a result of the 1974
relocation law, "a few Hopi and Navajo families found themselves on the
wrong side of the fence". From all the reports I have seen, the number of
Navajo people on the "wrong" side has been in the 7,000 to 15,000 range.

Do you represent the Hopi?
The shrillness and combativeness of these posts seems out of character for
Hopi, and I wonder if this is the way they would wish to be represented.

> >A document from the Hopi Tribe's Water Department projects drought within five
> >years for the outlying regions of the Navajo-Aquifer being depleted by Peabody.
> >Loss of water is a grave threat to the survival of land-based people in arid
> >places such as this.
>
> Right. And the Hopi can drink sand while your "traditional" Navajo
> despoilers of the land only drink water? Get real, Mr. Epp.
> Stop this racist attack on the Hopi!

How does "Hopi can drink sand" have any rational connection to
anything I wrote?

I report that Peabody is despoiling the land, and you interject a remark
that pins blame on the Navajo but has relevance to my quoted words that I
am unable to determine.

Do you not see the racism in your characterization of the Navajo?

I report the concerns the Hopi have, which you yourself have echoed,
and underline that these concerns are genuine and serious to the people of
the area - ie both Hopi & Navajo - and you characterize this as a "racist
attack on the Hopi"?

What is going on here?
I am at a loss what to make of such a jarring non-sequitur.
If reporting the concerns the Hopi have about the water situation
constitutes a "racist attack on the Hopi", wouldn't it then follow that
significant portions of your posts would be a "racist attack on the Hopi"?

> How much more patronizing can you be to the Hopi, Mr. Epp?
>
> but again, the SDN/Big Mountain has a "hidden" agenda that doesn't
> care about this issue. It's just a way of making more money.

Do you not see the patronizing attitude toward Navajo in this statement?
--
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hartw@efn.org (hwms) wrote:
> I quote the Chair
> of Sarah Lawrence College's Department of Anthropology this summer:
> "Hopis directly involved with the Council, including the last two
> Chairmen (Ferrell Secakuku and Vernon Masayeva) have strongly
> opposed the coal leases in lieu of an alternative method of
> transporting the coal. Hopis of all factions -- from traditionalist
> Kikmongwis (village chiefs)to modernist technocrats have been
> unianimous in their opposition  to the use of pristine groundwater
> to transport coal and in their disbelief in Peabody's denials
> that the pumping affects the springs."
> "... an escalating series of letters from Hopi individuals and officials
> (both traditional leaders and Tribal Council chairs), petitions signed by
> several hundred Hopis, protests in public hearings, dissenting
> interpretations by independent geologists and repeated refusal by the
> Tribal council to sanction the Department of the Interior's renewal of the
> mining lease have fallen on deaf ears. Flat rebuttals to Hopi protests
> continue to be retailed by Peabody and Hanson representatives ... Hopis
> now say Peabody has aligned itself with the Navajo Nation and ignores
> Hopi interests, a position borne out in employment figures."

Thank you very much for enlightening us on this subject.
This shift in Hopi society is encouraging and important news.

When did these actions relating to renewal of the mining lease occur?
Is Peabody currently operating without required approval?
If so, couldn't the Hopi sue for an injunction to stop the mining?
When is the lease due for renewal?
What specifically has Peabody been doing in alignment with the Navajo Nation?

> over 900 Navajo are employed at Peabody, and only perhaps 25
> Hopi, which is an abrogation of the original lease.

Don't the Hopi have any recourse to enforce the lease?
Have they used the powers they have, for example to use the labor
abrogation as a bargaining chip to get concessions on the water use?

> They know that the Navajo stole their land. The so-called
> "traditional" Navajo. Well, that IS a Navajo tradition, all right

Do you not see the racism in this statement?

> >I would also note that the very idea of exclusive ownership of fixed boundaries
> >is embedded in European culture but runs against the grain of the foundations
> >of many Native cultures, some of which consider it sacriligious to cut our
> >living Mother into pieces.
>
> Yes, but not the Hopi culture, which has very specific sacred boundary markers.

This is something I've seen vague references to but not any specifics,
and would like to learn more about.
Where exactly are these boundaries?

--
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hartw@efn.org (hwms) wrote:
> "Big Mountain" support groups operate in most of the major
> US cities, funnelling funds through an unending stream of
> 501(c)(3) charitable organizations.

What are the names of these organizations?
I know some people who'd like to talk to them!
The local support group here has raised less than $1,000 for the land in
its entire existence (8 months). This is less than the cost of obtaining
501c3 status.
All the Big Mountain groups I am aware of are operating on a shoestring.

> it has come from an evidently well-funded office in OLYMPIA, WASHINGTON
> (which is listed as the Northwest Region clearinghouse for the SDN/Big
> Mountain groups

What is your source for the assertion that it is a "well-funded office"?
When I called on 6 Aug 97, I found out that it consists entirely of
volunteers who have not received a penny for their efforts despite having
run up hundreds of dollars of bills.

> Literally millions of dollars have gone to Big Mountain groups

What is your source for this assertion, which is in jarring contradiction
to everything I have heard about Big Mountain?
Can you point me in the direction of a single person being paid full time
to work on Big Mountain support?

> the SDN/Big Mountain has a "hidden" agenda that doesn't care about this
> issue. It's just a way of making more money.

If, as you seem to imply, people are delegitimized by seeking funds to
carry out their goals, where does that leave the other parties?

The Hopi Tribal Council receives $13 million per year from Peabody;
this is 80% of its budget in a normal year.
It is also set to receive $15 million + $26 million from the Navajo
in various legal settlements.
I don't have statistics on how much is collected from Navajo in
impoundment and permit fees.

The Navajo Tribal Council receives $35 million a year from Peabody.
50% of its budget comes from mining.
Only a minute trickle of this reaches Traditionals on Big Mountain.
Most Navajo Big-Mountain-related expenditures are fees, rents, and
settlements that go directly to the Hopi Tribal Council.

Peabody's profits are $230 million a year.
Hanson's (Peabody's parent) after-tax profit was $1.7 billion in 1994.

Peabody reported $69,350 in PAC contributions to political candidates
in 1996. I don't know what other indirect contributions there might be.

The US government presumably collects millions in taxes; I don't have
figures on that.

Who is making the most money here?

Traditionals, both Hopi and Dineh, are the ones making the least money
and are the ones most focussed on spirituality and opposing materialism.
Why are they singled out to be the target of the most vociferous charges
of being money-hungry?

I have been told that Traditional Dineh elders said the forms of support
most important to them are prayers, and presence of people on the land.

Roberta Blackgoat and her son spoke in the Bay Area recently.
Here are some of the points they made:
Traditionals are proud of their self-reliance and not needing hand-outs.
In the 1930's the Traditionals were unaffected by the "Great Depression"
that affected people dependent on the cash economy.
Younger Navajo are working on moving away from dependence on the dollar
economy toward recovering self-reliance.
Everyone should consider asking for a smaller salary, to reduce the
influence of money and materialism in their lives.
The Traditional way is concerned more with sacred prayers and sacred songs
than with what's on paper.

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In article <33ec707f.2570599@news.idiom.com>, NO_SPAM_for7gen@idiom.com (Walter Epp) says:

<snip>

I am happy to see that, a fortnight later, Mr. Epp
has finally decided to reply.

I am certain that his "research" is up to his
usual standard.

And, given the time he has spent at the library, 
I shall reply in a LIKE amount of time.

In debate, we used to call this approach the 
"shotgun" or "spread" approach -- i.e. a 
torrent of verbiage that would, like a blowfish,
frighten antagonists away by sheer (seeming)
volume.

I note that Mr. Epp selectively quotes -- carefully
distorting the argument. So be it.

And, while this approach successfully
chased Mr. Michaelis off, I fear that Mr. Epp
has sadly misjudged the universal efficacy of his
approach.

Odd that he's so against spam, unless it's his
own.

Hart Williams

In article <33ee7211.2889494@news.idiom.com>, NO_SPAM_for7gen@idiom.com (Walter Epp) says:

I am happy to see that, a fortnight later, Mr. Epp
has finally decided to reply.

I am certain that his "research" is up to his
usual standard.

And, given the time he has spent at the library, 
I shall reply in a LIKE amount of time.

In debate, we used to call this approach the 
"shotgun" or "spread" approach -- i.e. a 
torrent of verbiage that would, like a blowfish,
frighten antagonists away by sheer (seeming)
volume.

I note that Mr. Epp selectively quotes -- carefully
distorting the argument. So be it.

And, while this approach successfully
chased Mr. Michaelis off, I fear that Mr. Epp
has sadly misjudged the universal efficacy of his
approach.

Hart Williams

In article <33ef72f5.3100516@news.idiom.com>, NO_SPAM_for7gen@idiom.com (Walter Epp) says:
>
>hartw@efn.org (hwms) wrote:
>> And even though the Church Rock, NM radioactive spill took place
>> in 1979, the Big Mountain "environmentally born-again" activists
>> only discovered it four months ago!
>
>You are misinformed. What is your source for this?
>
>Quoting from the Spring 1986 issue of Big Mountain News:
>
>Quoting from the November 1987 issue of Mother Jones:

Indeed. I graciously accept Mr. Epp's correction in this matter.
However, two issues present themselves:

First, that no archive I have researched going back to 1990 makes
any mention of this issue. It ONLY shows up again in the past
winter.

Second, in June, I interviewed the Navajo Tribal Engineering 
officer who did the actual testing of the wells in Clayton, AZ 
a couple of years ago. "Those wells are *clean*," he said.

>I don't have time to enter the detailed article in the Winter 1987 issue of Big
>Mountain News

Again, these articles are all ten years old. 
The question is: What does the Big Mountain group ask
be done about the situation.

The answer is: nothing. They have other fish to fry.
If there is a proposal regarding the "nuclear contamination"
I would very much like to hear it.

Otherwise, this is what I characterize it as: a rhetorical
dodge. A way of combining "buzzword" politics so that the
dispute is NEVER about the Hopi and Navajo, but always about
the poor Noble Savages (that's the White Man's myth, I don't
ascribe it to Native Americans) fightin' 'The Man' be that
Multinationals, Evil Nuclear Cabals, or Government Conspiracies.

Why?

Because then the argument would be what it has always been:

The Hopi would like SOME of their land back. The BM group 
would like to live outside of ALL law (remember, they don't
accept the Navajo Tribal Council, the Hopi Tribal Council, or
the US Government as legitimate. Technically, I think there's
a term for that).

Native tribe against Native tribe? They'd never have their way.
Native "oppressed" against "The Man"? Sneaky strategy, but a
good one, you have to give them that.

>> Not a word is heard, again, about the giant Uranium tailings pile
>> in downtown Shiprock, NM! Again, why not?
>
>You are misinformed. What is your source for this assertion?

Again, I welcome Mr. Epp's correction, albeit twelve years old.

>Quoting from the Spring 1985 issue of Big Mountain News:
>"US Senator Pete Domenici and Navajo Tribal Chairman Peterson Zah recently
>attended groundbreaking ceremonies for a $12 million uranium mill clean-up
>project.... 1.5 million tons of ore were processed and left in contaminated
>waste piles covering 72 acres next to the San Juan River near Shiprock NM.
>A federal-tribal coalition began action after 20 years of unanswered complaints
>by the Navajos....
>Chairman Zah urged further action on other uranium sites in Tuba City, Mexican
>Hat, and Monument Valley...."

Odd. I didn't know that Peterson Zah was a "Big Mountain" supporter.
Seems that his public statements have been on the side of the
accomodation agreement.

Now, as regards recent history (and not mouldering piles of 
"activist" propaganda magazines sitting in a closet from
the 1980s, there was no mention of the situation in recent
history until this last winter.

And, IF this is a serious issue, I'm certain that Mr. Epp
can provide us with voluminous documentation as to how
the Big Mountain Resisters have been working to clean up
the nuclear contamination. Right, Mr. Epp?

>remove NO_SPAM_ to reply by email

Ironic, when you consider the volume of Mr. Epp's response.

Hart Williams

In article <33ee7211.2889494@news.idiom.com>, NO_SPAM_for7gen@idiom.com (Walter Epp) says:

<snip>

I am happy to see that, a fortnight later, Mr. Epp
has finally decided to reply.

I am certain that his "research" is up to his
usual standard.

And, given the time he has spent at the library, 
I shall reply in a LIKE amount of time.

In debate, we used to call this approach the 
"shotgun" or "spread" approach -- i.e. a 
torrent of verbiage that would, like a blowfish,
frighten antagonists away by sheer (seeming)
volume.

I note that Mr. Epp selectively quotes -- carefully
distorting the argument. So be it.

And, while this approach successfully
chased Mr. Michaelis off, I fear that Mr. Epp
has sadly misjudged the universal efficacy of his
approach.

Odd that he's so against spam, unless it's his
own.

Hart Williams

tom kavanagh wrote:
Whoops, sorry, checking my documentary sources shows that it was the
November 1982 issue.

tk

> 
> Walter Epp wrote:
> >
> 
> > hartw@efn.org (hwms) wrote:
> <snip>
> 
> > > Yes, but not the Hopi culture, which has very specific sacred boundary markers.
> >
> > This is something I've seen vague references to but not any specifics,
> > and would like to learn more about.
> > Where exactly are these boundaries?
> 
> While the "exact" locations of the shrines are, of course, secret, their
> general locations were detailed in an article in a 1980 National
> Geographic, August I believe.
> 
> See also the chapter in Jake and Susan Page's book "Hopi."
> 
> tk

In article <33eb6cbc.1849159@news.idiom.com>, NO_SPAM_for7gen@idiom.com (Walter Epp) says:

>Do you not see the racism in your characterization of the Navajo?
>
>Do you not see the patronizing attitude toward Navajo in this statement?

As stated, I will reply in precise detail to Mr. Epp's 
postings.

But, as anticipated, he wants to slither the "race" card
back at me, and I WILL respond herein.

1. My characterization of the Big Mountain group is, in no
   wise my characterization of the Navajo. As I've made
   clear in other postings, I do not confuse "the Navajo"
   with the "Big Mountain resisters."

   Neither do I confuse the "Hopi Tribal Council" or the
   "Hopi Tribe" with "Peabody Coal Co."

   Neither do I confuse 10,000 plus Hopi tribal members with
   several questionable "traditionalists" to the detriment
   of the entire tribe.

   Neither do I make the absurd claim that when the 36 remaining
   resisters' run out of water, the Hopi Tribe will in somewise
   still be drinking from the D and N aquifers. But Mr. Epp seems
   to feel that the loss of water will only impact ONE group.

   THAT, Mr. Epp, is racism.

   Perhaps I misspoke in my comment on Navajo history, but
   there is factual historical record behind it -- a LOT
   of factual history. And my Navajo friends who are aware
   of it don't care for it, and sincerely want a different
   sort of historical record -- but they don't try to distort
   the record by claiming that it's "condescending."

   But then, Mr. Epp, not being Navajo, is not merely the 
   arbiter of who is and isn't a Hopi, but the determiner
   as to what does and doesn't consist of "racism" towards
   the Navajo and what the Navajo should be offended by.

   That being the case, Mr. Epp, I don't really think there's
   much doubt as to who the racist in the conversation is, and
   who is hiding BEHIND the race card in an attempt to 
   promote his private ideological agenda.

   I wonder if you actually CARE about the Big Mountain people,
   or you just get your jollies by playing environmentalist
   and "saving" worlds you've never been to?

    Hart Williams

-snip-

>   I wonder if you actually CARE about the Big Mountain people,
>   or you just get your jollies by playing environmentalist
>   and "saving" worlds you've never been to?

>    Hart Williams

There are far too many "do-gooders" out there, people who don't know the 
area, who don't know the cultures, who don't know the history, who don't 
know about INTRAtribal differences, much less intertribal differences, yet 
who get a kick out of stirring things up and feeling like they are 
accomplishing something.  Unfortunately, these people never seem to feel the 
need to right any wrongs at home, so they go around meddling in everyone 
else's business.  Of course, after they have meddled, THESE OUTSIDERS can 
always go home or elsewhere to meddle some more if the results they have 
created screw up the people that they were "helping." It's fine to have an 
opinion about the Hopis, the Dineh, Peabody Coal, etc.  I think it's even 
fine sometimes for outsiders to try to mediate differences as long as 
they recognize their limitations.  But it's really no one's business but 
the parties actually affected to resolve their disputes.  They have to live 
with the results.












Quotes of the Week:  
I have learned that the swiftest traveler is he that goes 
afoot."

"To make a railroad round the world available to all mankind is 
equivalent to grading the whole surface of the planet."

Walden, Henry David Thoreau

True they The People have to live with the results. This is another case of
get Natives to fight Natives while the government and their machine Peabody
coal end with the goods and line their pockets with gold. Maybe I don't
understand the cultures since I'm not Hopi or Dineh, but I do understand
the tricks of the government and their ways. This is an old trick. I do
know what Peabody coal does to our mother. Ever been to Western
Kentucky???? There is your proof of them. I would love to load up the
Elders from both sides and let them see the rape that has happened there. I
do know that the Hopi will lose. The Dineh will lose. Mother Earth will
lose. Our children will lose... and Peabody Coal will laugh all the way to
the bank, and will pay only $20.00 per acre for their fun...

What of seven generations from now?
Bo Weaver
boweaver at culet dot com                  no spam

Dr. Jack <ifjed@nmsua.nmsu.edu> wrote in article
<ifjed.5227.33F1F57A@nmsua.nmsu.edu>...
>
> >   I wonder if you actually CARE about the Big Mountain people,
> >   or you just get your jollies by playing environmentalist
> >   and "saving" worlds you've never been to?
> 
> >    Hart Williams
> 
> There are far too many "do-gooders" out there, people who don't know the 
> area, who don't know the cultures, who don't know the history, who don't 
> know about INTRAtribal differences, much less intertribal differences,
yet 
> who get a kick out of stirring things up and feeling like they are 
> accomplishing something.  Unfortunately, these people never seem to feel
the 
> need to right any wrongs at home, so they go around meddling in everyone 
> else's business.  Of course, after they have meddled, THESE OUTSIDERS can

> always go home or elsewhere to meddle some more if the results they have 
> created screw up the people that they were "helping." It's fine to have
an 
> opinion about the Hopis, the Dineh, Peabody Coal, etc.  I think it's even

> fine sometimes for outsiders to try to mediate differences as long as 
> they recognize their limitations.  But it's really no one's business but 
> the parties actually affected to resolve their disputes.  They have to
live 
> with the results.