🚀 go-pugleaf

"hot frog" <short@tension.span> wrote in message 
news:47bac924$0$8437$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
> "Peter Webb" <webbfamily@DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> news:47b99665$0$22095$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>
>> "hot frog" <short@tension.span> wrote in message
>> news:47b9907d$0$26343$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>> > "Peter Webb" <webbfamily@DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote in message
>> > news:47b91d9d$0$25392$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>> >>
>> >> "hot frog" <short@tension.span> wrote in message
>> >> news:47b83ec1$0$24086$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>> >> > Here is a simple, cost-free method most households can use to reduce
>> > their
>> >> > CO2 emissions, literally by tonnes.
>> >> >
>> >> > Step 1. Replace any incandescent light bulbs in your home, that are
>> >> > left
>> >> > on
>> >> > for several hours a night, with compact fluorescent lightbulbs
> (CFLs).
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Fine.
>> >>
>> >> > Step 2. Use the money you save on electricity to purchase accredited
>> > green
>> >> > energy.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Pointless. Buying "green energy" doesn't increase the generation of
> green
>> >> energy. It just subsidises the excess capacity that must be produced 
>> >> to
>> >> reach the government Minimum Renewable Energy Targets (MRETs), and has
> no
>> >> effect whatsoever on how power is actually generated.
>> >
>> > Retailers are audited to check they haven't counted their GreenPower
>> > purchases towards their mandatory requirements to purchase renewable
>> > energy
>> > under Mandatory Renewable Energy Target (MRET).
>> > http://www.greenpower.gov.au/what-accreditation-means.aspx
>> >
>>
>> True but irrelevant. Their is an oversupply of "green" energy as industry
>> gears up for the next round of MRET targets, and the certificates for the
>> excess is all they are selling. They sell the electricity anyway, they 
>> are
>> just selling the feel-good quality. A couple of years ago, the 
>> incremental
>> cost with some suppliers was zero - they charged the same for green
>> electricity as normal electricity, because electricity is electricity and
>> they were just selling (giving away) the feelgood for power being
> generated
>> but surplus to MRET at that time.
>>
>> Buying "green power" would have no effect on the installed base of
>> renewables unless the additional consumer costs matched the additional
> cost
>> of making green power - which is about 4 or 5 times as much as we pay for
>> coal power now in NSW.
>
> I find all of this very hard to believe. For a start, wind power 
> generation
> costs were already down to 7.5-9 c/kWh in 2004, and falling at 4% per 
> year,
> compared to at least 3.5 c/kWh for coal power.
> [ 
> http://www.bioenergyaustralia.org/reports/Clean_Energy_Future_Report.pdf ]
> And wind power is not the cheapest green power by any means.
>

In your, and bioenergyaustralia's dreams.


> Secondly, why would retailers buy the more expensive renewable energy in
> excess of their MRET, unless they had to honour their commitment to
> greenpower customers.

Because the generators don't charge a premium price - they can't. In the 
middle of the day electricity may wholesale for 4 cents an hour. If you are 
a solar plant, or a wind plant, you have to sell at  that wholesale price. 
Distributors wouldn't buy it otherwise - or at least not for those above 
their MRET needs.


>
> This is a more complete quote from
> http://www.greenpower.gov.au/what-accreditation-means.aspx :
>
> "
> Accreditation also means that GreenPower retailers' sales and purchases 
> are
> audited on an annual basis to ensure you get what you pay for. Retailers 
> are
> audited to check they haven't counted their GreenPower purchases towards
> their mandatory requirements to purchase renewable energy under Mandatory
> Renewable Energy Target (MRET). This means you pay only once for renewable
> energy.
>
> From a customer's perspective, the GreenPower label demonstrates at a 
> glance
> that they are supporting renewable energy that is best for the environment
> and the renewable energy purchased will decrease greenhouse pollution.
> "
>
> Note "the renewable energy purchased will decrease greenhouse pollution."
>

Interesting. It doesn't say "your purchase of this electricity will decrease 
greenhouse gas pollution". The renewable energy you "purchased" would have 
decreased greenhouse gas emissions even if you hadn't "purchased" it, 
because when the sun is shining and the wind is blowing renewable plants are 
selling that amount of extra power at 4 cents per kWh to the distributors, 
and would be anyway.