🚀 go-pugleaf

If you decide to paint, don't use an oily paint for obvious reasons.
More importantly,  don't even *think* about adding some "roughness" to
the surface and paint in some sandpaper-ish material. It becomes
unclimbable.
Don't know about the wood - ok you pervs, we're talking PLYwood - but
go with whatever is readily available and not super-costly; you may
want to expand, throw away F*** ups, etc.

krishnan

In article <1113901346.554228.326480@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
 <krishnan.n@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>
>More importantly,  don't even *think* about adding some "roughness" to
>the surface and paint in some sandpaper-ish material. It becomes
>unclimbable.

What does that mean?  Some sand in the paint is pretty standard for
wooden climbing walls as far as I know.  Metolius even sells (or sold?)
paint with sand pre-mixed into it (of course, you'd have to be kinda a
sucker to buy the pre-mix, given how cheap grey paint and fine sand are,
but...).

-- 
 Thor Lancelot Simon	                                      tls@rek.tjls.com

"The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to be
 abandoned or transcended, there is no problem."		- Noam Chomsky

> What does that mean?  Some sand in the paint is pretty standard for
> wooden climbing walls as far as I know.
>
      That's interesting; the operative word is "some"? A friend built
a wall
       and painted  with  (over?)  some really rough material. If you
went
      for a hold and got so much as a touch with knuckle, knee, felt
      like it would take skin away -- never did anything dynamic on
      the wall to verify :)

      So, how does one go about adding fine sand to the paint? What
      is grey paint?  Something like wood-base? That comes brown
      in these parts ...

thanks,
krishnan

In article <1113924520.005374.86720@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
 <krishnan.n@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>
>  That's interesting; the operative word is "some"? A friend built a wall
>  and painted  with  (over?)  some really rough material. If you went
>  for a hold and got so much as a touch with knuckle, knee, felt
>  like it would take skin away -- never did anything dynamic on
>  the wall to verify :)

Real stone can be pretty rough, too, you know.

>  So, how does one go about adding fine sand to the paint? What
>  is grey paint?  Something like wood-base? That comes brown
>  in these parts ...

Pretty much any grey paint will work.  It's easy to paint plywood.

You just mix a little bit of fine sand into every can of paint.  Don't
use coarse sand and don't forget to *stir constantly* while painting, or
the sand will all fall to the bottom and you'll paint no friction onto
part of the wall and too much onto other parts -- or so much sand in the
paint on some parts of the wall that it doesn't stick well.

You can probably find a good ratio of sand to paint in one of the
magazine articles on building bouldering walls.

-- 
 Thor Lancelot Simon	                                      tls@rek.tjls.com

"The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to be
 abandoned or transcended, there is no problem."		- Noam Chomsky

"Thor Lancelot Simon" <tls@panix.com> wrote in message
> In article   <krishnan.n@myrealbox.com> wrote:
> >More importantly,  don't even *think* about adding some "roughness" to
> >the surface and paint in some sandpaper-ish material. It becomes
> >unclimbable.
>
> What does that mean?

It means sand or other abrasive in the paint sucks.  Which
words didn't you understand?

- Lord Slime

"Thor Lancelot Simon" <tls@panix.com> wrote in message
> Real stone can be pretty rough, too, you know.

How quaint.  Someone who still thinks a climbing gym should
be built to resemble real rock.  The 8-year-old kids there for the
birthday parties like it.

Hey Thor, I bet you have a bunch of sharp crimpers on your
home wall, eh?   How 'bout a Bachar ladder?  Still using pea
gravel on the floor?

> >  So, how does one go about adding fine sand to the paint? What
> >  is grey paint?
> Pretty much any grey paint will work.  It's easy to paint plywood.

Right.  Pretty fucking easy to fill the threads of the T-nuts with paint
too.  Or you could paint first, then drill and hammer the nuts, but
then you'd mess up your sweet paint job.  You'll see what I mean.

>  Don't  use coarse sand and don't forget to *stir constantly*
> while painting, or the sand will all fall to the bottom...

Yeah, "It's "easy to paint plywood", eh?

Abrasive gym walls suck to use, and it's a waste of time, money
and effort.

- Lord Slime

In article <116ackdj28oip9f@corp.supernews.com>,
Lord Slime <jbyrnesNO@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> wrote:
>"Thor Lancelot Simon" <tls@panix.com> wrote in message
>> Real stone can be pretty rough, too, you know.
>
>How quaint.  Someone who still thinks a climbing gym should
>be built to resemble real rock.  The 8-year-old kids there for the
>birthday parties like it.

It's nice to be able to smear on the flat wall surfaces sometimes.  You
can get somewhere with matte paint but, yes, I *like* the vaguely
sandstone-like friction you get with a little sand in the paint.  It is
very similar to the texture of some of the expensive modular wall
systems, which people also seem pretty positive about.

>Right.  Pretty fucking easy to fill the threads of the T-nuts with paint
>too.  Or you could paint first, then drill and hammer the nuts, but
>then you'd mess up your sweet paint job.  You'll see what I mean.

We did a pretty large wall (most of a squash court with quite a tall
ceiling) where I used to work.  We did paint, drill, hammer -- and there
were some minor ugly spots but in general it looked pretty good when we
were done.

>>  Don't  use coarse sand and don't forget to *stir constantly*
>> while painting, or the sand will all fall to the bottom...
>
>Yeah, "It's "easy to paint plywood", eh?

We sure didn't have much trouble with it.  Other people I've talked to
who've built wooden walls haven't had much trouble with it.  What
exactly is so hard?  Stirring paint before you dip the brush in it is
not rocket science.

I've talked to several other people who'd built large wooden walls.  My
off-the-cuff impression is that most of them modified the friction of
the paint somehow (I met one guy who used the special Metolius paint.  I
couldn't tell the difference between his result and ours, honestly).  I
have also seen a beautiful Entre Prises modular wall painted with gloss
white enamel at the insistence of the building in whose atrium it was
installed.  Now *that* really did suck: it was almost a frictionless
surface that made all the beautiful molded-in features close to useless!

>Abrasive gym walls suck to use, and it's a waste of time, money
>and effort.

Not every wall that has sand in the paint ends up like a sheet of
sandpaper.  There's a continuum that goes from "shiny gloss paint that
you'd have to be dumb to use" to "coarse sandpaper that won't stick to
the wood well and that you'd have to be dumb to use".  It sounds like
maybe you prefer plain matte paint, and I prefer a _little_ bit of
fine sand.  I would guess that neither of us like shiny glossiness and
neither of us like sandpaper.  But there are a lot of different ways
it can be done and opinions differ on what the best way is.  As I said,
my impression is that most people who build plywood walls do put some
sand in the wall paint.

-- 
 Thor Lancelot Simon	                                      tls@rek.tjls.com

"The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to be
 abandoned or transcended, there is no problem."		- Noam Chomsky

In article <116ackc9obcjv9d@corp.supernews.com>,
Lord Slime <jbyrnesNO@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> wrote:
>"Thor Lancelot Simon" <tls@panix.com> wrote in message
>> In article   <krishnan.n@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>> >More importantly,  don't even *think* about adding some "roughness" to
>> >the surface and paint in some sandpaper-ish material. It becomes
>> >unclimbable.
>>
>> What does that mean?
>
>It means sand or other abrasive in the paint sucks.  Which
>words didn't you understand?

Oh, maybe "unclimbable".  I can see "very unpleasant to fall on",
particularly if you do a lousy job of it, but "unclimbable", no.

-- 
 Thor Lancelot Simon	                                      tls@rek.tjls.com

"The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to be
 abandoned or transcended, there is no problem."		- Noam Chomsky

"Thor Lancelot Simon" <tls@panix.com> wrote in message news
> Lord Slime <jbyrnesNO@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> wrote:
> >How quaint.  Someone who still thinks a climbing gym should
> >be built to resemble real rock.  The 8-year-old kids there for the
> >birthday parties like it.
>
> It's nice to be able to smear on the flat wall surfaces sometimes.

You see Thor, it's your attitude.  Climbers(tm) don't climb on
home woodies to see if they can get to the top.  Woodies are
for TRAINING.   Most woodies overhang 15 to 50 degrees,
making texture a moot point.   If you want to stem to another
face, there will be holds over there to do so.

> You
> can get somewhere with matte paint but, yes, I *like* the vaguely
> sandstone-like friction you get with a little sand in the paint.  It is
> very similar to the texture of some of the expensive modular wall
> systems, which people also seem pretty positive about.

What crap.  Many of the OLD gyms had abrasive walls.
Most of the NEW gyms don't.  Why do you think that is?

> We did a pretty large wall (most of a squash court with quite a tall
> ceiling) where I used to work.  We did paint, drill, hammer -- and there
> were some minor ugly spots but in general it looked pretty good when we
> were done.

Sure, it looks good but the sand didn't make you a better
climber, and cost a lot more time, money and effort.

> >Yeah, "It's "easy to paint plywood", eh?
>
> We sure didn't have much trouble with it.  Other people I've talked to
> who've built wooden walls haven't had much trouble with it.  What
> exactly is so hard?  Stirring paint before you dip the brush in it is
> not rocket science.

No, but it's about twice the effort of NOT stirring the
paint for every brush-dip!  And getting consistancy
between the full can and almost empty?  And between
painters?  Easy.

> I've talked to several other people who'd built large wooden walls.

You haven't talked to me.

>   My
> off-the-cuff impression is that most of them modified the friction of
> the paint somehow

All the folks I know didn't paint.  Or if they did, it didn't have sand.

> I have also seen a beautiful Entre Prises modular wall painted with gloss
> white enamel at the insistence of the building in whose atrium it was
> installed.  Now *that* really did suck: it was almost a frictionless
> surface that made all the beautiful molded-in features close to useless!

And this relatest to home woodies how?  Are you saying one
should cut features in the plywood?

> >Abrasive gym walls suck to use, and it's a waste of time, money
> >and effort.
>
> Not every wall that has sand in the paint ends up like a sheet of
> sandpaper.  There's a continuum that goes from "shiny gloss paint that
> you'd have to be dumb to use" to "coarse sandpaper that won't stick to
> the wood well and that you'd have to be dumb to use".  It sounds like
> maybe you prefer plain matte paint, and I prefer a _little_ bit of
> fine sand.  I would guess that neither of us like shiny glossiness and
> neither of us like sandpaper.  But there are a lot of different ways
> it can be done and opinions differ on what the best way is.  As I said,
> my impression is that most people who build plywood walls do put some
> sand in the wall paint.

You're wrong.   Most people don't paint their home woodies.
There's no benefit.    And if they built it many years ago, then the
sand in the paint has worn away anyway, just like many commercial
gyms I've been to, leaving a black, polished smear.

- Lord Slime

In article <116ahh0br89kh97@corp.supernews.com>,
Lord Slime <jbyrnesNO@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> wrote:
>"Thor Lancelot Simon" <tls@panix.com> wrote in message news
>> Lord Slime <jbyrnesNO@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> wrote:
>> >How quaint.  Someone who still thinks a climbing gym should
>> >be built to resemble real rock.  The 8-year-old kids there for the
>> >birthday parties like it.
>>
>> It's nice to be able to smear on the flat wall surfaces sometimes.
>
>You see Thor, it's your attitude.  Climbers(tm) don't climb on
>home woodies to see if they can get to the top.  Woodies are
>for TRAINING.   Most woodies overhang 15 to 50 degrees,
>making texture a moot point.   If you want to stem to another
>face, there will be holds over there to do so.

You're right -- I know very little about small, steep home training
walls; I live in Manhattan, and there are a few around here but they
are not exactly common.  They don't fit in apartments very well!

All I know about building wood climbing walls is about pretty good-sized
general purpose gym walls; and that knowledge is about 5 years old.  I
will cheerfully admit, as I should have in the first place, that you know
a lot more about what makes a good home training wall than I do, and shut
up.

-- 
 Thor Lancelot Simon	                                      tls@rek.tjls.com

"The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to be
 abandoned or transcended, there is no problem."		- Noam Chomsky

"Thor Lancelot Simon" <tls@panix.com> wrote in message
> Lord Slime <jbyrnesNO@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> wrote:
> >You see Thor, it's your attitude.  Climbers(tm) don't climb on
> >home woodies to see if they can get to the top.  Woodies are
> >for TRAINING.   Most woodies overhang 15 to 50 degrees,
> >making texture a moot point.

> You're right -- I know very little about small, steep home training
> walls; I live in Manhattan, and there are a few around here but they
> are not exactly common.  They don't fit in apartments very well!

On the contrary, I've seen several articles in the rags featuring
small designs for apartments.  There's more than you think, since
some pretty good boulderers have come out of NYC lately.

> All I know about building wood climbing walls is about pretty good-sized
> general purpose gym walls; and that knowledge is about 5 years old.

Then you should know that a huge revenue generator for a
commercial gym is "special parties" such as birthday parties
for the 8-12 year old set.  These gyms are made to look like
real rock for the tourists, not serious climbers.

> I will cheerfully admit, as I should have in the first place, that you
know
> a lot more about what makes a good home training wall than I do, and shut
> up.

Since I just built one from the ground up, yeah, I have to admit that I
know quite a bit about what it takes to build one.  Jeff Elison did the
wall design (his 4th or 5th) and I did much of the work.  Just like the
one before it, we didn't even consider painting it.  I have photos if
someone cares to post them somewhere.

- Lord Slime

"Thor Lancelot Simon"
> Lord Slime <jbyrnesNO@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> wrote:
>>"Thor Lancelot Simon" <tls@panix.com> wrote

> It's nice to be able to smear on the flat wall surfaces sometimes.

No it's not.  If you're smearing you didn't build it steep enough.  Build it 
steeper and use jibs.

> were some minor ugly spots but in general it looked pretty good when we
> were done.

Are you Martha fucking Stewart?  This is a dirty, dusty, chalk and rubber 
encaked structure.  It ain't a set for a performance artist to jerk off on.

>
>>>  Don't  use coarse sand and don't forget to *stir constantly*
>>> while painting, or the sand will all fall to the bottom...
>>
>>Yeah, "It's "easy to paint plywood", eh?
>
> We sure didn't have much trouble with it.  Other people I've talked to
> who've built wooden walls haven't had much trouble with it.  What
> exactly is so hard?  Stirring paint before you dip the brush in it is
> not rocket science.

It is when compared to not painting at all.

In years past, I've built several commercial walls for serious boulderers 
and climbing gyms.  No one wanted or needed texture.  Climbing gyms spray on 
various textures for aestetic appeal and small amound of built in foot 
features---but even those aren't because of the texture, rather because of 
some subtle edge or variation in the underlying structure.  The only thing 
its good for is scraping good rubber off your high dollar slippers.

Will Niccolls 

Anecdotal evidence from me.

Working currently on my third home wall over the past 13 years.  Will
paint this one, painted 1 of two previous.  Never used sand, and never
will.  Paint is mainly cosmetic or to cover cheap cdx.  I personally
have gotten splinters under the fingernails from un-painted walls, and
it sucks, though not nearly as much as the cheese-grate of textured
walls.

1) frame, cut, dry fit, and hang ply wood (miter edges of panels if you
are really glutt for punishment)
2) paint and let dry each panel
3) flip and drill for t-nuts
4) build a jig and hand tighten each and every t-nut individually as
hammering will set them crooked
5) re-hang panels and do final drilling.
6) putty seams
7) cut-in dried putty by hand w/ a brush
8) pull down

If you know a better way, come over.  I'll buy you a beer and you can
show me your wall-fu.

Building woodies sucks.  Not nearly as much fun as climbing on them...

'Greg Daughtry
no-man's land, ca

"Tonight, the bottle let me down..."

In article <116aqct54fild5b@corp.supernews.com>,
Lord Slime <jbyrnesNO@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> wrote:
>
>On the contrary, I've seen several articles in the rags featuring
>small designs for apartments.  There's more than you think, since
>some pretty good boulderers have come out of NYC lately.

I know several people with what I'd call "boards" more than walls, but
how much design is there in a single 4x8 sheet mounted at an angle?

You're right, it should have occurred to me that of the five or six of
these that I've seen, only a couple have any paint on them.

But even among the seriously hard-core bouldering set I would say
that home walls are a lot less common in Manhattan than elsewhere.  The
first serious woodie I saw around here was one of the ones featured in
the rags -- and its owner was forced to lend it to Chelsea Piers for
general use for several months because his apartment didn't actually
turn out to be big enough to contain it after all!


>> All I know about building wood climbing walls is about pretty good-sized
>> general purpose gym walls; and that knowledge is about 5 years old.
>
>Then you should know that a huge revenue generator for a
>commercial gym is "special parties" such as birthday parties
>for the 8-12 year old set.  These gyms are made to look like
>real rock for the tourists, not serious climbers.

"It depends".  There were some pretty good climbers on the college wall
I helped build, and there really were some places where we found the
"sandpaper paint" useful -- we had a couple of very nice stem corners at
different angles that wouldn't have worked well with slick paint or no
paint (we subsequently touched one of them up with unsanded paint and found
that routesetting changed dramatically).  Of course all the nearby
examples of wood walls we had to look at were painted, most with sandy
stuff -- so that might have influenced our choice somewhat.

One thing we found with a high-traffic wood wall was that sections that
were in use before they were painted (there was some tweaking and
expansion that went on) peeled and splintered a bit.  The paint seemed
to deal with that problem pretty well -- though I bet it doesn't happen
on a uniformly steep wall at all.

-- 
 Thor Lancelot Simon	                                      tls@rek.tjls.com

"The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to be
 abandoned or transcended, there is no problem."		- Noam Chomsky

"Thor Lancelot Simon" <tls@panix.com> wrote in message news:d45ob4>
> In article  Lord Slime wrote:
> >On the contrary, I've seen several articles in the rags featuring
> >small designs for apartments.  There's more than you think, since
> >some pretty good boulderers have come out of NYC lately.
>
> I know several people with what I'd call "boards" more than walls, but
> how much design is there in a single 4x8 sheet mounted at an angle?

Hardly any, but that's a pretty simple woodie.  I guess you have
pretty simple friends, eh?

> >Then you should know that a huge revenue generator for a
> >commercial gym is "special parties" such as birthday parties
> >for the 8-12 year old set.  These gyms are made to look like
> >real rock for the tourists, not serious climbers.
>
> "It depends".  There were some pretty good climbers on the college wall
> I helped build, and there really were some places where we found the
> "sandpaper paint" useful

"So what?"  Sure, you can use it, but for a home woodie, it's not worth
the effort.

> -- we had a couple of very nice stem corners at
> different angles that wouldn't have worked well with slick paint

Yeah, good training for Devils Tower, but not much else.

> or no
> paint (we subsequently touched one of them up with unsanded paint and
found
> that routesetting changed dramatically).  Of course all the nearby
> examples of wood walls we had to look at were painted, most with sandy
> stuff -- so that might have influenced our choice somewhat.

Whatever.  And I forgot one of the most serious drawbacks to
sand/textured paint: when you put on a hold it has a much greater
tendency to spin because of the texture.  This leads to several
problems, not the least is getting injured.

- Lord Slime

In article <116dihkrjlhhd01@corp.supernews.com>,
Lord Slime <jbyrnesNO@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> wrote:
>
>"So what?"  Sure, you can use it, but for a home woodie, it's not worth
>the effort.

You persuaded me of this about 3 messages ago, for what it's worth.

>Whatever.  And I forgot one of the most serious drawbacks to
>sand/textured paint: when you put on a hold it has a much greater
>tendency to spin because of the texture.  This leads to several
>problems, not the least is getting injured.

You know, I'm not sure why that's so, but you're right -- I've seen
it; hell, I've had it happen to me while bouldering, and it really
sucked (dumped me on my ass on a wood floor, hard).

-- 
 Thor Lancelot Simon	                                      tls@rek.tjls.com

"The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to be
 abandoned or transcended, there is no problem."		- Noam Chomsky

Greg wrote:
> Anecdotal evidence from me.
>
> Working currently on my third home wall over the past 13 years.  Will
> paint this one, painted 1 of two previous.  Never used sand, and
never
> will.  Paint is mainly cosmetic or to cover cheap cdx.  I personally
> have gotten splinters under the fingernails from un-painted walls,
and
> it sucks, though not nearly as much as the cheese-grate of textured
> walls.

im late in the thread, but i thoguht id toss my two cents out. ive
built, i guess, two pretty decent sizes home walls. or more accuraetly,
one big wall and half of two others. my own anecdotal evidence:

1. i agree that as many holes as possible is great. t-nuts are far
cheaper online, shipped in bulk, than anywhere you can find in a
non-virtual store. i disagree that tnuts need to be pressed in with a
jig/press. i found that when you just sit there banging them in with a
hammer it works quickly and quite well 98% of the time. for the one or
two per board you f* up, just flip the board over and bang them out
with a nail (takes a second) and re-do it.

2. i will paint every wall i ever climb on. and spackle every joint. i
hate plywood splinters. they're painful as all get out, and eventually
you will get one under your fingernail, etc, if you dont paint, IMHE.
latex paint is dirt cheap, and often hardware stores have a gallon or
two they want to get rid of, so sometimes its even free. and painting
is the work of minutes with a cheap roller. just dont slather it on too
hard or youll have trouble threading in the holds the first time.

3. i like sand. as other posters have mentioned, you have to use fine
sand, and you have to moderate the amount you use. i like sand even for
overhung walls, although i have no experience with *heavily* overhung
walls. and on vert or near-vertical walls i think frictionless walls
are annoying as hell. i remember hand-painting patches of sandy paint
onto the wall features (corners and aretes and etc) of a previously
unsanded painted wall and improving the climbing experience a lot.

if you're gonna use sand, do a test patch and let it dry. make sure you
didnt put so much in it'll brush off the rock first time you smear.

in my experience, holds _may_ spin more on sanded than unsanded paint,
but the difference is not a big deal. first off, spinning holds should
not be a threatening phenomenon. were you really psyched to get that
problem flash onsight;) second, its your home woodie? its spinning? so
tighten it some more. never failed us. and if you have some trick hold
with no surface area that refuses to bolt tight, you could just scrap
the wall with a piece of metal for 15 seconds and bingo- no sand. but
that never occured to us because it was never a problem.

the only drawback i noticed with the sanded wall was that we had a lot
of beginners wearing out the edging on club shoes with awful footwork.
not gonna' be a problem for all you diehardbadasssuperduper internet
rock gods.

anthony

"ant" <dummyaccount@electricant.net> wrote in message
> 2. i will paint every wall i ever climb on. and spackle every joint. i
> hate plywood splinters. they're painful as all get out, and eventually
> you will get one under your fingernail, etc, if you dont paint, IMHE.

YMMV.  In the thousands of hours I've spent climbing on
non-painted plywood walls... I can't think of more than a
few times that I had a splinter from the plywood.   And I
think those were burrs from T-nut holes.

Maybe we used a better grade of plywood, or did something
else different, but that's never been a problem.    Maybe it's
the type of holds you use?  Or the angle of the walls?

- Lord Slime