🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <1992May13.211925.20118@pencom.com> gad@pencom.com writes:
>My old 72 Datsun had all of its "gadgets" intact and functional when
>I sold it.

Well, the '72 or so Datsun 510 whose engine I overhauled about 10 years
ago sure didn't!

>I'm not familiar with Toyota, but I am always impressed when I drive
>a Honda or my wife's Acura, all of the controls fall readily to hand,
>and give a positive, tactile feel when engaged.

I have, and probably never will have, any complaints with Honda or
their Acura division.  I have a Honda in my garage right now, and will
probably have another Honda in there when I get tired of that one.

Honda is like Nakamichi - when given the alternative between making a
better product or being like the rest of the cheap Japanese electronics
manufacturers, Nakamichi chose quality.  Honda has the same attitude.
Toyota, on the other hand, is complete crap.  I drove a Toyota for a
week about a month or so ago and was completely dissatisfied, as well
as uncomfortable.  Nissan is expensive crap with slick ad campaigns.

>I continue to disagree on this point John. If all of my personal experience
>with a product is bad, I don't care who or how many people tell me it's
>a good product, I'm not going to buy it.
 
You need to very carefully go back and read everything you've written,
because you are disagreeing with yourself.

You've said that American made cars have lower quality than Japanese
made cars.  You've said that Ford made cars are particularly troublesome.
You now have a Ford made truck, Made in America, sitting in outside.

>Don't you think it might be a little late to fix it after it's rolled
>away? 
 
No.  I think this recall campaign is a lot like the Audi "sudden
accelleration" one - without merit.  When I lived in states with
hills we were taught to park with the parking brake on.  Had these
people done so, they would never have discovered that the "park"
gear on their transmission wasn't working.  It's like my recent
brake job - I never used my parking brake, so my brakes broke.  Is
it Pontiac's fault I didn't follow directions?  No.  It turns out
that self-adjusting brakes have to be used to adjust themselves ...

>Is the Attorney General of Florida willing to pay my repair bills or
>give me a ride while my "quality" car is in the shop?

No, but the Attorney General is an elected official.  Are you, as the
hypothetical elected official going to intentionally mislead your
constituents, knowing that they are going to figure it out eventually?

This is the point - every time anyone bothers to do an objective study
of quality, the conclusion is always the same.  If you put a Japanese
name on it, people THINK it is better quality.  If you put an American
name on it, people THINK it is worse quality.  It's proven by the
Mitsubishi Eclipse example I've given, as well as Range Rover and
others.  You've proven it yourself by complaining so loudly about
Ford and American quality and then buying an American car from a
Japanese company.

>No, he'll talk about how he loves American cars (true patriot), but
>how much easier, faster (re cheaper) it is for him to fix foreign
>cars (Honda and Acura specifically).

Again, if you OBJECTIVELY check out the facts (that is, call your
local insurance agent), you will find that just the opposite is true.

Now, I might believe that Honda and Acura are both better than Toyota
or Nissan, since I have a love affair with anything that Honda Motors
produces.  But overall, American made cars are cheaper to own, operate
and repair than are the Japanese - and the OBJECTIVE studies - not the
self-selecting Consumer Reports polls - bear this out.

>I had the opportunity the other day to listen as the owner of the
>Black Forest repair shop (local German Independent shop) bemoaned
>the loss of his clientel. He continued that they were all now buying
>Lexus models. When we joked to him "why don't you become a Lexus shop"
>he replied "because they don't break". Now you know as well as I that
>Lexus do and will break, but they have a strong market perception of
>quality. That is what sells cars. All the bitching and moaning in the
>world won't change that.

And you're now proving my point for me.  All the bitching and moaning
in the world WILL change that perception.  I loved my ex's 98.  It was
a great car, road very well, and with the "performance" handling
package, it road much more like the Mercedes-Benzs I was raised on.
After about 3 years of owning the car, my ex complained about how
poorly it was running.  Turns out it needed a tune-up because it had
never had one.  This is the perception that needs to be changed.  Part
of it is to get people to maintain their cars (my Pontiac gets regular
maintenance and drives very well, getting about 23MPG city).  The other
part is that "drives poorly" means the manufacturer is somehow to
blame.  When my car went from 23MPG to 20MPG, I said "must need a
tune-up".  It did, and now it runs fine and gets 23MPG again.

>Ahhh, make no assumptions John. I don't believe that we necessarily
>build inferior products. I do believe that we are losing quite a bit
>of marketshare to the Japanese due to quality concerns, either real
>or percieved. I'd like to state here, that if it is only a perception
>problem, the onus is still on the American Car builders to correct
>that perception. Putting the onus on potential customers to go find
>out that American quality is good or great will never work.

Well, I'll agree with this point - and I think Ford and Olds have both
done excellent work at stressing "quality".  It's a shame that Pontiac
hasn't because in all my experiences, Pontiac is the highest quality
affordable sports car maker on the planet.  [ Never driven one of them
Eye-talian cars ... ]

But so much of the problem is the fault of the car magazines.  They
know that the Navajo is a Ford product.  But does the Explorer get
"Truck of the Year".  No - as I recall it was the Navajo splattered
on the cover of whatever magazine that was.  The Pontiac Gran Prix
is now a Consumer Reports "Best Buy" - and used to rank pretty poorly.

>Well, as I stated earlier, I rely on my personal experiences more than
>on who won what or on who says what. My personal experience has been
>that American cars have been more expensive to maintain than Japanese.

But on average they don't.  Again, if you want to argue against the
facts, do so.  The insurance companies keep records of the repair
costs for automobiles.  This isn't limited to fender-bender numbers.
If you look at the data for repair costs, the answer is that it costs
more to repair a Japanese car.  I'm not making this up - go call your
insurance agent.  Sure, you'll find some cars on each end, but the
overall picture is that American cars cost less than the Japanese or
the European cars to own, operate, and maintain.

>As for safety, first I subscribe to the belief that the best way to
>survive an accident is to avoid it.

Again, the average mortality and injury rates for American made cars
are lower.  This isn't a Corvette to Civic comparision, either.  The
insurance companies, who must pay out these injury claims all say that
Japanese cars, overall, result in more injuries than American cars.

>You're assuming that I have some premices other than just presenting my
>personal experiences with the particular vehicle which you chose to 
>use in your point. That is an incorrect assumption.

I believe that you have a very deep-seated belief that American cars
are lower quality.  It comes out in everything you write on this topic.
"I take Ford at their word ..."  Did you stop and think to take Honda
or Acura "at their word"?  You go from specific examples to broad
generalizations, even when the examples aren't consistent with the
established facts.  It's like the modern racist - "I have nothing
against black men, but let me tell you about all the bad experiences
I've had with black men ..."

You complained about maintenance - American cars have lower maintenance
costs.  You complained about fuel economy - American fuel economy is
improving while Japanese is worsening.  You complained about quality -
American quality is on par with Japanese, and some Japanese companies'
quality is deteriorating (Toyota, to be specific).  You complained
about safety - American made cars have fewer injuries and deaths.

If you want to accept that your experiences are atypical, then you have
my condolences, your experiences are atypical.
-- 
John F. Haugh II                   | Vida en La Republica de Tejas:
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151            |  Gov. Ann Richards after shooting her
UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh |  first wild turkey of the season on
Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org      |  hunting deer: "[It's] as boring as dirt."