🚀 go-pugleaf

Doug Fraser (dfraser@muss.cis.McMaster.CA) wrote:
: Andrew T. Chow <au999@torfree.net> wrote:
: >integrating with mainstream classes.  With regard to that one teacher on 
: >that one TV program, I do not know the full detail and context to decide 
: >if the comments warrant generalizing to ALL Canadian schools.  Other 

: I read an article (probably in the Globe and Mail) several years ago 
: (around 3 to 5 years ago I would guess) where teachers in Vancouver and 
: Toronto were 
: saying that the ESL children know English well enough to bet by at lunch 
: time and after school but not well enough to discuss topics in class.  
: These teachers reported that they were not able to have meaningful 
: classrooms discussions anymore.

Whether children bet during lunch hours or not, I am not certain. :-)

However, there is a distinct difference between ESL children, and 
children who speak English as a second language.  Until people understand 
the difference, this discussion will continue with confusing and 
irrational rhetoric which is counter-productive.

: >statistics often show immigrant children do much better scholastically than 

: Gee, before Harris was elected, this was sufficient proof for racism in 
: the school system.  Now I am not sure :-)

Are you making sense, common sense, or nonsense?

: Actually the only statistics that I have seen publicly available are from 
: the Toronto board of education.  These statistics show that only some 
: immigrant children do much better scholastically.  There are other groups 
: that do much worse.  This might be because of changes in the system (see 
: comment above) to accommodate them.  Another example is at one 
: universtity in Ottawa, you self identify yourself as disadvantaged and 
: then can get extra time on exams.

Again you are not sticking to the point of discussion.  Try and keep to 
the topic we are talking about: whether ESL classes are draining our 
schools of much needed resources, and whether immigrant children are 
responsible for the decline of quality in our education.

: >Canadian children.  It is unclear how the class can be held back due to 
: >immigrant children.

: I had a discussion with the principal at my daughter's high school last 
: year.  I went in to tell him that I was unhappy that enrichment 
: activities at the school were an extra curricular activity.  He told me 
: that he had received word that morning (poor timing on my part) that his 
: resources might well be cut back.  If that occurred, the enrichment 
: activities were going to be cut because he felt it more important to 
: concentrate on the children in need rather than the high end.

Congratulations to you for the apparent success of your daughter in 
school.  However, I agree with the principal that children at the low  
end of the achievement scale should receive more attention than those at 
the top.  Children with abilities will eventually find their own level in 
society.  The personal struggle is indeed itself an educational 
experience.  Society's responsibility is in helping the children in need, 
to help them compete against more capable peers, indeed, to help achieve 
self-sufficiency.  You own personal experience may distort your 
objectivity on this issue.

:  I am not 
: faulting 
: his decision but pointing out that some children are not getting what 
: they are entitled to (under Ontario law at least) because of budget 
: allocations toward the children in need.  No doubt, children who don't 
: speak English (I don't think that this is a problem in my area) would 
: qualify as children in need.

There are not many children who DON'T speak English.  There ARE many 
children who speak English as a second languagle.  However, they are 
also, as you indicated, often high scholastic achievers.  When you can 
cool off enough to be more objective on this issue, I am certain that you 
will agree that the initial controversy started on this thread was mainly 
due to one person's careless usage of English and misunderstanding that 
followed.

regards,

Andrew Chow
au999@torfree.net
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