🚀 go-pugleaf

phillips@cs.ubc.ca (George Phillips) writes:
>>>>There is just one: "Stay the hell out of my way."  More specific versions
>>>>can be extrapolated from this.  The general theme, as I stated, is to
>>>>protect people from other people.
>>>
>>>On whose authority do you proclaim this as being the ``correct''
>>>fundamental axiom for society?
>>
>>Mine.  I want people to stay out of my way.  Would you suggest that I not 
>>be allowed that?  I am not proposing a fundamental axiom for society, I am
>>proposing a fundamental axiom for me.  Everyone else can pick their own
>>(as long as they don't violate mine); I am sure that most will choose
>>something similar to mine.
>
>Well, my personal fundamental axiom is "Let me do what I want to" (don't
>worry, it's OK to end PFAs with a preposition, or even a proposition).
>Whoops, that wasn't similar to yours.  Oh, wait, you ruled out me picking
>any rights that interfere with yours.  How can we resolve this?

You'll simply have to choose a PFA that doesn't lead to interference in other
peoples' lives.  Is this not obvious?  Are you suggesting that this is not
reasonable?

>>>The point I was making in asking the question is that we have NO
>>>ultimate authority to appeal to.  Society is, in effect, its own
>>>ultimate arbiter and we can collectively ascribe to whatever set
>>>of rights we please.
>>
>>I have done just that.  By myself.  I don't need society's help.
>
>[ and then a little later ... ]
>
>>The only flaw with my self-chosen rights is that I cannot physically 
>>defend them against a large crowd of people.  I am relying on the decency of
>>people.  If they aren't decent, then we are talking fascism or communism, or 
>>a milder version like Canada.
>
>I see, you're relying on the society you live in to support your rights.

Not to "support" my rights, but to be decent enough not to interfere with
them.  I am forced to do this because there are a lot of them, and some of
them have guns.  I am not demanding anything of society - except to be left
alone.  I am more than willing to return the favour.

>And you live in a decent society where most of the people support the
>same kinds of things you do.  Are you sure your rights were self-chosen,
>or are you just going with the flow?

"The right not to be harmed", "the right to property", "the right to freedom
of speech"...  You're right, they aren't very original - maybe I picked them
up on TV or something.  But you know it just doesn't matter where I got them,
or even whether they are original, I just want them.  Would you deny them to
me?

>Sorry, you can't start with everyone's list of personal rights and
>parlay that into a law system or society.

Why not if the rights of each person do not lead to interference with other
people?  If they do not, everybody is orthogonal to everybody else.  I don't
know how many times I have repeated this, but the laws should only protect
people from each other.  This allows people to pursue their lives as they 
see fit.

Ken Buckland                     Freedom.
kenb@ee.ubc.ca