🚀 go-pugleaf

mdwilson writes:
>I wish to extend Mr. Rudman's point a bit. Moral progress within western
>civ has always be achieved by an extension of rights to those previously
>thought to be outside the moral community of those in power. "Savages"
>were considered souless, and recently, God doesn't hear the prayers of
>Jews. The nonreligious are constantly striving to develop a moral context
>that carries no reference to god or religious dogma. In the past, justice
>and fairness were considered constructs of christians or white europeans.

As were rights.

>Whether other species have these concepts in unclear, but it does seem
>certain that if they do, they are not the same as ours.

I don't see what the concepts or lack thereof of other species have to do
with the question of whether *we* should be fair/just in our dealings. We
don't limit fairness to the most cogent or articulate humans and regard
everyone else as a "mark" (in the con man's sense of the word).

>I agree with Rudman that this is no reason to exclude other species from
>the moral construct of rights.

Perhaps it is semantics, but I don't see any distinction between "justice"
and "rights". Rights are not self-enforcing: if they were we wouldn't
need them. Fairness pertains to how "rights" are allocated and justice to
how "rights" are enforced. I don't understand how you can expect to have
a sensible "moral construct" of rights *except* in terms of fairness and
justice. Rights without fairness would be arbitrary and rights without
enforcement would be hollow.

>This front is a perhaps esoteric philosophical one and may not be useful
>to the masses that have been mentioned. I think an additional argument is
>a clear recontructuring of what humans value.

Yes. Fairness *is* a value and I suggest that it needs restructuring to
include the resource needs of other life than human life. But certainly
many other values need restructuring too.

>Somewhere, I believe, inside
>everyone, is that valueing of wilderness, of something greater and more
>mysterious than oneself, of the Other. Awakening this valueing is perhaps
>the most important thing we can do to win allies. Such programs as taking
>inner city children on backpacking trips, the dissemination of wilderness
>photos and literature, etc. Human beings need a reference point outside
>themselves in order to know themselves and define themselves and knowing
>oneself has always been a peculiarly and importantly human endeavor.

I couldn't agree more.

Alan McGowen