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India Interest Group Digest Thu, 17 Mar 94       Volume 2: Issue 493

Today's Topics:

Economics/Development::
      India's first hardware training school
      ISO
      ISO 900*
      Most Favored Nation - explanation
      Robotics software export from India
      Technology in India
      TQM, etc.

Entertainment::
      Films Reviewed

FYI::
      Internet access

Immigration::
      F-2 Visa
      F1 visa and self employment
      Help regarding Passport Forms
      Is your spouse waiting to immigrate to US ? (Part 1/2)
      Want info for H1-B multiple visa in Canada

Miscellaneous::
      Reg. Id Greetings

Politics::
      An ashamed Bengalee and Anandamath
      Irresponsible Press
      Let sanity prevail
      Misclassification of article
      Opinions !
      Reg. Arshad's posting
      Reg. Ken Bryant's posting
      Reg. responses to my note on Vande Mataram
      Vande Mataram

Social Issues::
      Zillion mutinies

Spiritual/Religion::
      Against all religions (Part 1/2)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

                                Economics/Development
                                =====================

Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 14:01:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Ashish Chand <chand@ug.csee.usf.edu>
Subject: India's first hardware training school

DCM Dataproducts and ISCT Information Technology have opened India's first
hardware training school.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 08:43:00 -0800 (PST)
From: RPENDSE@potx05a.seguin.aieg.mot.com (Raju Pendse)
Subject: ISO

I think the ISO debate is a good debate to have in the INN Digest. Another
very good cliche I have heard about the ISO quality system is " Say what you
do and do what you say". This may put things very simplistically, but it is
true that the ISO quality standard only forces you to document your quality
system however good or bad it may be.

Major US corporations like Motorola, Ford, IBM and 3M have refused to accept
the ISO as a quality standard. In fact the Motorola Quality Systems Review
(QSR), I think is a much more stringent standard and so is the Ford Q1.
Motorola has in fact come out with a press release last year stating that they
do not require their suppliers to adhere to the ISO system but rather use
Motorola's own QSR approach. The only reason I can think of why US
corporations including Motorola are getting their plants ISO certified is
because they want to do business in Europe.

One netter mentioned that it must be no big deal to get ISO certification
just because there are a whole lot of Indian companies that already have
received it or are in the process of receiveing it. I don't think
we can make such generalizations. I have seen a lot of Indian companies and
read a lot of Indian trade journals recently and a lot is being done and said
in the quality/Total quality Management/empowerment/ISO areas. The
private sector companies in India and some public sector companies have
really woken up to such quality standards and from what I can make out a lot
of it is being driven by top management like CEOs without whose support no
quality system will work.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 11:41:00 -0800 (PST)
From: <SHIV@lnhdent.agw.bt.co.uk>
Subject: ISO 900*

Dear all,
There has been increasing doubt about the validity of the ISO 900*
certification given to Indian companies.   As everyone may be aware that
this is required by EC, and with increasing opportunity for Indian companies
to shake hands with European counterparts,  it is quiet natural that the
*fad* has become increasingly visible.
I differ to accept that any external auditing company  would give in to the
forces prevailing in India to give certification.   Such an act will be very
short sighted and disastrous, as it can be seen that mere holding an ISO
certificate doesnot guarantee an export order.   Myself being in an Indian
company providing services to customer in UK, I can see what it takes to
meet the requirements of the customer in the real sense, and believe me it
is much more than a mere certificate.    No company in Europe will
compromise on quality while considering on cost.   Another area where I
differ is giving certification to HAL, BHEL and BEL.   I admit that things
are not on as would be expected,  however,  the fact that these are the
companies, who have not only improved things in India,  but are major
contributors to the development of countries in ASEAN (Malaysia), Latin
America, Middle East ( Iraq ...) and Africa.   They are providing quality
spare parts at competitive (not cheap) price to European countries, Russia
etc.  So as can be seen these companies, if given proper oppurtunity can
play well in Europe and other developed countries.     Most important
outcome of this *fad* is that the people are becoming aware of quality.
Till today,  Indians were carried away by gloss and glitter of goods,   now
they are learning to see the quality in matt.   I think atleast we are
moving in the right direction.   Quality is not a peak that can be conquered
completely,  it is a never ending path.

Advait Karhadkar

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 17:39:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Dhananjay Patankar <PATANKAR@zodiac.rutgers.edu>
Subject: Most Favored Nation - explanation

Hi,
Somebody recently enquired about Most Favored Nation (MFN) Status and the
controversy over US giving that status to China.

The term MFN is misleading and anachronistic. It seems to imply that countries
getting MFN get some special privileges. In fact, except 10 or 20 countries,
all other countries of the world (including India) have MFN status in the US.
According to US trade law, all countries by default have MFN status, with some
exceptions: the following countries are ineligible for this status: (i)
communist countries (ii) those that impose severe restrictions on emigration
of citizens (iii) South East Asian countries who are impeding the search for
missing US military personnel. China is, thus, ineligible. But the law allows
the President to extend the status to otherwise ineligible countries if he
thinks that such a "waiver of ineligibility" will help in making that country
change its policies. Such a waiver has to be renewed periodically. China's
waiver has been always renewed through all these years. (Most East European
countries also have received waivers.)

If a country has MFN status, it is eligible for the normal tariffs and other
import regulations of US. If a country does not have MFN status, imports into
the US from that country are subjected to higher tariffs or other extra
restrictions. So the issue for China is not getting any special privileges,
but avoiding special restrictions.

MFN is also a global principle and has been part of GATT. It says that
countries should aim to have non-discriminatory import laws, i.e., they should
not have higher tariffs or other barriers against imports from certain
countries and lower barriers for those from others. (Meaning that all
countries should try to make all other countries their most-favored nations,
which sounds kinda stupid. In fact, it is more accurately called the "Non-
discriminatory Treatment" principle.)

Dhananjay B. Patankar

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 12:20:33 +0900 (JST)
From: Praveen Bhatia <bhatia@space.mech.tohoku.ac.jp>
Subject: Robotics software export from India

Dear netters,
        I am a robotics engg. and when I saw the following add in INN
it got me curious ....

ABB PLANS SOFTWARE EXPORTS FROM INDIA
COPENHAGEN - India will be a major player in software exports for ABB
worldwide, especially robotics, under the $300 million investment plan in
India by ABB in 2 or 3 years.

        If someone has more information on this could (s)he let us
know about it.

Praveen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 09:43:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Boris de Souza <bdesouza@cap.gwu.edu>
Subject: Technology in India

The current issue of IEEE Spectrum magazine has as it's main section the
"State of Technology in India".  Has anyone read it?
I was pleasently surprised to learn that much of the technology,
particularly that put out by C-DoT is doing well both in India as well as
overseas in third world markets.  The most exciting thing is the dispatch
with which technology is being transfered from Labs to private industry.
The lead article of the series written by an editor of the IEEE lists the
"realistic" setting in which technological companies operate.. the
corruption, shortages, ignorant babus, etc, so at least that has not
changed.  The follow on articles all written by Ministry officials are
pretty much matter-of-fact, though the occasionally the "I know better
than you" attitude comes through loud and clear.
It is pretty interesting, and the magazine should be in any decent
library. Read it.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 08:20:53 -0500 (EST)
From: cr57dvn@ctcdbs.cummins.com (D V Nishar)
Subject: TQM, etc.

In one of the postings about ISO 900* standards, somebody
mentioned that TQM was another passing fad. I am wondering
if somebody who has worked in that area (or the nettor ho
posted it) can elaborate on this. This is because, as I
understand it, this 'fad' was actually initiated in Japan
and emulated in the US after American industries started
losing market share to better quality Japanese products.

-Deep

------------------------------

                                Entertainment
                                =============

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 08:04:26 -0500 (EST)
From: "Amod K. Choudhary" <achoud@PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Films Reviewed

Friends,
I had a chance the following two movies.

1. Goonj Uthi Shahnai - This movie stars Rajendra Kumar, Anita and Ameeta
Guha.  Rajendra Kumar's character and one of the ladies (Anita or Ameeta)
fall in love.  The bond between them is of course Shehnai.  The problem is
that the lady's father and Rajendra's father are from different backgrounds.
Certainly this creates a lot of problem.  If you ever wanted to hear what
shenai sounds like, this movie is it.  Rajendra kumar gives a very good
performance.  overall, this movie was good.

2.  Shola aur Shabnam - This movie stars a very young Dharmendra & Tarla.
Dharmendra and Tarla's character are childhood friends who get separated
but are reunited under different circumstances in their adulthood.  This
movie has some very popular songs.  However, the story is week and acting
is not very believable by almost all  of the actors.  Overall, this
film was boring.

------------------------------

                                FYI
                                ===

Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 15:44:28 -0500 (EST)
From: SNIRODY%INDYMED.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu (Suresh Nirody)
Subject: Internet access

You may also get Internet access through the INTERNATIONAL INTERNET ASSOC. Base
d in Washington, D.C., this organisation provides "free" Internet access, with
1 meg of storage, 14,400 BPS and lower capability, Kermit, X-modem, etc (to tra
nsfer info to your home computer, and access to e-mail, Usenet, Gopher, WWW, WA
IS, Archie, Telnet, FTP, etc. The only cost to you is dialling up their node, a
nd you can do this two ways - either call directly and pay your phone company,
or use their 800 number (for which they will bill you their cost -$0.20/minute-
in $10 increments).
For further info e-mail INFO@IIA.ORG, or fax them at (202) 387 5446.

------------------------------

                                Immigration
                                ===========

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 10:36:48 -0600 (CST)
From: Tapan K Padhi <padhi@plains.NoDak.edu>
Subject: F-2 Visa

Dear Netters,
I had a question regarding F-2 visa of my wife and kids.If the spouse
has one passport with the kids name endorsed in it, are the kids
required to be present during visa interview? The ages  of the kids
are 5 and 3.
What are the necessary documents to be shown during visa
interview ?
Any suggestion and advice from any of you will be highly appreciated.
Those netters  who had gone through simillar situation may be able to
provide me some valuable information, which will be a great help.

Tapan Padhi

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 08:29:56 -0500 (EST)
From: CT1NXKT@GE1VM.SCHDY.GE.COM (Nitin Koppikar)
Subject: F1 visa and self employment

Hi Netters,
          A friend of mine  wants to know if he can have his own business
legally while he studies with a F1 visa. He knows that he cannot be employed by
anyone on F1 visa. However , can he be self employed. If this is possible, how
does he take care of taxes to be paid to IRS.
         I would appreciate if any one of you can throw some light on this
issue.

Regards,
Nitin

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 01:06:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Mallika@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu
Subject: Help regarding Passport Forms

Hi,
        Thanks to all who had sent info regading the passport renewal. I
could get the phone numbers and fax numbers of the Indian Embassy at San
Francisco This is the consulate in whose jurisdiction Oklahoma lies.
But when I tried to call them(fifty) many times it was always
engaged(all the six numbers).Or the phone just keeps ringing and nobody
answered the call.
        My passport is already Ten years old so I have to get the forms
for applying for a new passport, and I cannot renew it since each
passport is valid for only 10 years. My passport is expiring on 28th
march 94 and it is a big problem if it expires I think I cannot renew it
in USA after expiration
        So I will really appreciate it if somebody sends me the forms
for ISSUE OF NEW PASSPORT.  The forms should be from the Consulate
General of India at San Francisco.  It would be really helpful if anyone
sends it by fax to (405)744-5720 or mail it to
        Mallika
        82, South University Place, #1
        Stillwater OK 74075

Thanking you in advance
Mallika

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 17:28:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Vimal Solanki <vimal@ans.net>
Subject: Is your spouse waiting to immigrate to US ? (Part 1/2)

Note :  This is an important message for US Permanent Residents - a.k.a. Green
        Card holders - who recently got married outside of US. If you are not
        this boat, but someone you know is in this situation, please pass this
        message along.  They'll appreciate.  Thanks.

What is the issue here ?
=======================

As a result of current quote system for immigration visas, when a Permanent
Resident (PR) of US marries a person residing outside of US, the newly married
couple has to wait close to 3 years before they can commence their married
life together in US.  This wait is expected to reach 3.5 - 4 years very soon !!

The situation is exacerbated by the fact that the non-resident spouse is
PREVENTED from visiting US resident spouse, EVEN FOR A TEMPORARY STAY !! This
results in FORCED SEPARATION for newly married couple for years right after
the marriage.  These years of separation are very hard on often new families
and bring a lot of stress on still forming relationships.

This is especially unfare to Permanent Residents - who are future citizens of
this country - because only PRs who marry outside US border have to go through
this long forced separation.  No other category - e.g. H1, L1, F1, J1 - faces
this problem. Spouses of people holding visas mentioned above can immediately
come to US and join the family members.

What is being done to address the issue ?
=======================================

There are two bills in 103rd congress, one in house and one in senate, to
address this issue.  Senate bill - S 618 - was introduced by Senator Riegle
from Michigan.  House bill - HR 3182 - was introduced by NJ Congressman
Congressman Frank Pallone.

The objective of these two bills is to provide interim relief to the suffering
imposed on these newly married couples by requesting that spouses be at least
be granted visiting privileges to US while they are waiting to immigrate at a
later date.  These bills DO NOT ask to increase immigration quota.
                                                        (To be continued)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 09:34:29 -0500
From: sunil@albers.rtpnc.epa.gov (Sunil Kamerkar)
Subject: Want info for H1-B multiple visa in Canada

Dear netters,
I would like to have latest information on getting H1-B multiple visa in Canada.

I am sure this topic has been discussed earlier but I don't have any details &
also assume that these things keep changing frequently. I would like to go to
Canada (Toronto,Ottawa or Montreal) for getting a multiple visa in the near
future. I would be highly greateful if you could suggest me about the necessary
requirements. I live in North Carolina. I would like to know which city would be
best for me.

Thanks in advance!!
Sunil Kamerkar

------------------------------

                                Miscellaneous
                                =============

Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 14:36:39 -1000 (HST)
From: arshad@uhics.ics.Hawaii.Edu (Mohammed A Hussain)
Subject: Reg. Id Greetings

-)From: talukdar@hal.hahnemann.edu (Talukdar)
-)Subject: Id Greetings
-)
-)Id greetings to all my friends and fellow nettors.

Thank you very much.
Belated Eid Mubarak from me too.

------------------------------

                                Politics
                                ========

Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 17:27:54 -0800
From: asr@dsc.com (Ashish Ray)
Subject: An ashamed Bengalee and Anandamath

        In her article dated 09 Mar 1994 Neepa Majumdar writes:
> ...a novel by Bankimchandra called "Ananda Math", which, as a Bengali, I am
> ashamed to say is one of the most blatantly racist and anti-Muslim books ...
Before making extreme conclusions like this, we should judge literature
with the proper perspective - the **context** in which it was written.
At that time Bengal was trying to shrug off the days of despair and
needed strong nationalistic feelings to stand on its feet - Bengal
needed the strong nationalistic literature created by Bankimchandra.
The word "Ma" symbolized motherland - the Sannyasis of Anandamath
represented the repressed masses up in arms against the agressors.
Quite correctly, at that time, thanks to the notoriety and widespread
destruction of Hindu culture by some Muslim rulers, Muslims synonymized
with agressors.

        I read Anandamath when I was in high school and beginning to
appreciate the wonderful world of literature. It did not occur to me
that I was reading racist literature. It did not instill in me any hard
feelings towards any religion. I was simply moved. There was this episode
in Anandamath where the Sannyasi asks something like this:
- "Tui Ma-r janyo ki ditey parbi ?" (What do you have to offer to Ma ?)
- "Aami amaar praan debo !" (I am ready to offer my life !)
- "Aarey praan to tuchho - se to ichhe korle shobai parey - nishhartha
   bhakti ditey parbi ?" (Giving up life is easy - anyone can do that -
   can you give your selfless dedication to Ma ?)

        Anandamath taught us the values of this dedication and commitment
which now sadly lack in the Indian polity. Yes, Bankimchandra was an
elitist writer. Unlike Sharatchandra, he never wrote about the simple,
ordinary people. His themes were very exotic - involving high class Hindus.
Yes - he used words like "Jabon", "Bidharmee" towards Muslims in Anandamath.
But I don't believe Anandamath can be classified as "blatantly racist and
anti-Muslim". Now the times have changed - we are more secular in our
thoughts and Muslims are very much part of the Indian culture. Saddled
with all our secular feelings and sitting infront of a computer terminal at
late 20th century America - it's easy for us to call Anandamath racist
literature. But we should spare a moment to think about the time he was
writing. Maybe then we would stop confusing his work with racist propaganda.

Regards .... Ashish.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 00:03:45 -0600
From: "Srinivas K. Karanam" <skaranam@Eng.Auburn.EDU>
Subject: Irresponsible Press

This is with reference to the article written by

By THOMAS WAGNER
 Associated Press Writer

in INN digest[I] March 03

where it has been stated that India has promised to hold plesbicite in kashmir
after fighting of with Pakistan which had invaded kashmir at that time.(1947)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 10:20 +0000
From: NEERAJ@MPA15AB.mv-oc.Unisys.COM
Subject: Let sanity prevail

It was heartening to see a few fellow Muslims on the net speak up and ask a
very rational and valid question - that if Hinduism is such a rich faith
why does its adherents have to hurt people of other faiths to advance its
cause? Two wrongs do not make a right, nor does two instances of injustice
make up justice. While some of the extremist fellow Hindus are pointing
fingers at Muslims for all sorts of things, real and imaginary, what about the
uncomfortable sides of Hinduism like the still prevalent caste clashes,
dowry deaths, female infanticide? As Hinduism cannot be judged by only these
issues alone, so also Islam cannot be judged by the actions of its extremists
alone. Generalisation is a very convinient tool - it allows one to very easily
glorify oneself at the expense of others.

Do the extremist Hindu netters know that Hinduism is so rich that the later
Upanishads celebrate the Allah? That Dara Shiko, son of emperor Shah Jahan,
got the Upanishads translated into Persian and from there it was translated
into Latin and Europe learnt about it then?

Someone mentioned there was no John or Khan in India before a thousand years.
So? Before two to three thousand years earlier than that there were probably
no Aryans and some time earlier than that there were probably no Dravidians
either. Someone else said the Taj Mahal was built by the sweat of hundreds
of workers, but who then built all the wonderful Hindu temples with awe
inspiring architecture and intricate design?

This is not say that Islam does not its own problems. As a fellow Muslim
netter said there are many of them but all of us have our own problems, so
why waste time pointing fingers when that time can as well be spent on
trying to solve our own?

Religious extremism is a two-way knife. It cuts both ways.

Neeraj Vora

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 19:32:11 +0000 (WET)
From: z.akbar@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Misclassification of article

Ms. Ramamurthy,

Maybe you should start a section called "hate-Islam" or "muslim bashing" so
as to avoid misclassification of postings. The latest example of such a
posting is the one by Akshay.Bakhai@CTRL.bbl-test.rtt.be (15th March) on
dar-ul-harb. And you chose to put it under Politics! I am sure if you start
the aforementioned section you will not be disappointed, as it is quite
evident that your news group invites a lot of attacks on Islam and muslims.

Please do not get me wrong, because I am not blaming you for the anti-muslim
sentiment openly espoused on the network. However, I do feel that since you
do not allow any personal attacks/flames on the network, you should not
allow any attacks on religion as well. The logic is fairly straight forward
and I am sure your journalistic (hopefully secular!) acumen will fathom the
rationale behind it.

Sameer Akbar
(I must be a real "psec" as one of your favourite contributor to the network
likes to say, because my first name is a sanskrit as well as a persian word
and my last name.....was'nt Akbar a really secular king who went to the
extent of marrying a hindu woman !!)

[ Editor's response:
        Thank you for the suggestion on starting a new section. We want to
clarify that we DO NOT "invite" attacks on any faith or any group of people
in our Digests. We have repeated it several times, and we are pleased to
restate it to you and others, again: So long as any posting conforms to
the stated policies and guidelines of this Digest, it will be accepted and
posted in this Digest. Thanks, again. ]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 11:21:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: JALMEIP7@darla.badm.scarolina.edu
Subject: Opinions !

    I do not intend to open an old can of worms regarding that age-
old issue of censorship on the net.  Nonetheless, one of
the members griped that religious passions were being inflamed by
certain obscurantists via their postings and should therefore be
precluded by the editors from expressing their opinions.  However, I
do not see that as a solution.  If one believes that some entity is
spreading falsifications or making claims that stretch one's
immagination, I believe that offering facts that disprove the
falsehood being propagated or attacking the assumptions on which the
outrageous claims are based is a more appropriate strategy.
    A case in point is a member's observation that men and women in
the US treat (view) each other as animals.  Obviously, this conclusion
is based on an overdose of Hollywood caricatures.  May I appeal to
this member to go beyond the confines of the movie theatre and/or
his/her living room and interact with some of the most loving and
caring "American" families who share quite a few of our morals before
making any sweeping generalizations.
    Anyway, getting back to my primary point, forcing the "vocal
minority" under the rug will not hinder their message.  In fact,
enabling an open discussion will go a long way in convincing the
silent majority of the weaknesses in the obscurantic arguments.  I
believe the editors deserve our kudos for providing a medium to
facilitate such discussions.

James Almeida

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 11:08:56 +0000 (GMT)
From: Divya Joshi <JOS0916J@bkstud3.uel.ac.uk>
Subject: Reg. Arshad's posting

Dear Ms Editor,

I am writing to express that the argument made by Arshad about Hindus
using India-D to attack Muslims is completely untenable. First of all
one of the most commendable articles was by a Muslim called "Bosnian
Muslims! But Serbs and Croats" and not by a Hindu. And secondly I
feel that the articles chosen by India-D do contain a high level of
expertise, which reflects inner knowledge of political situations,
portraying the reality.

I for one look forward to reading the political section each day and
I am sure the majority of other predominantly nationalist subscribers
do too. Long live India-D and Long Live Bharat.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 08:14:55 -0500
From: Choudhury <choudhur@cs.ucf.edu>
Subject: Reg. Ken Bryant's posting

I'd like to express my strong appreciation to Ken Bryant for
his perceptive analysis of Ananda-Math. For further analysis, one
could look  at "The Novel and Society in Modern India", Meenakshi
Mukherji (Oxford U. Press). May I also echo the call of a Muslim
reader to stop including uncalled-for attacks on Islam and
Muslims. The hindutvavadis should start a separate group for their
feudal, bigoted tirades and let anyone who inhabits their medieval
timewarp read it. If one is to attack religions and faiths, surely
no religion is perfect and above attacks concerning various perversions
carried out in its name at different times in history. It seems
that the very hindutvavadis who rave and rant about the backwardness
of the Muslims and of "their being unaffected by the spirit of
Tagore and Gandhi" have themselves remained completely immune to
the rationality and tolerance of the Indian Enlightenment pioneered
by Rammohan Roy and carried forward by many great intellectuals and
leaders since. Given the level of knowledge and analysis they
exhibit, it also escapes them Tagore in fact was always staunchly
modernist and rationalist in his political thought (except for a
brief flirtation with Gandhian Utopianism of the Dickensian
or Sharat Chandra "kind capitalist" variety), as opposed to
Bankim Chandra, who inspite of his formidable intellect and
stature as a cultural savant and renaissance man of sorts, often
sided with the conservatives in matters of social reform). It is too
much to expect rational discourse and debate from the Hindutvavadis,
but surely the editors can censor or more often completely ignore
their bigoted and mindless tirades.

Sudipto Roy Choudhury

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 12:30:25 -0500 (EST)
From: NMAJUMDA@ucs.indiana.EDU (Neepa Majumdar)
Subject: Reg. responses to my note on Vande Mataram

   I want to thank everyone for their heated responses to my message on the
ant-Muslim sentiments in Bankimchandra's Ananda Math.
If there is one common thread to all this anger and passion in your responses,
it is over the question of PATRIOTISM -- i.e., most of you claim that to
question the value of Ananda Math or Vande Mataram is to be unpatriotic.  My
question to you is: patriotism towards what?  Is your patriotism towards
a Hindu India or a secular India?
   If, as many of you imply, your loyalty and patriotism is towards a Hindu
India, then you are a Hindu fundamentalist and I have nothing to say to
you except (a) you must be willing to forsake all pride in Indian classical
music, Kathak dance, the Taj Mahal, Mughlai cuisine, and all other forms
of "contamination" (as you would have to logically put it, since some of
you clearly want to return to pre-1050 A.D. culture) from Islamic culture;
and (b) remember that your sentiments are dangerously close to that of Nazi
Germany with its irrational intolerance for all but "pure" Aryan races.
   If, on the other hand, you are for a secular, eclectic, and tolerant India,
then you have to remember that, as Ken Bryant's message documents, "Ananda Math"
is clearly advocating a nationalist struggle for a HINDU India, with BOTH
British and Muslims being regarded as foreigners.  Meenakshi Mukherjee
writes in her book "Realism and Reality": "One can by no means ignore or
whitewash the fact that in "Ananda Math" Bankim's concept of India was a
purely Hindu nation where patriotic ardour could be subsumed into a devotional
zeal and national regeneration could be identified with revitalization of
religion."  I have nothing against religious zeal or revival SO LONG as it
doesn't belittle other religions (correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it
a fundamental belief of Hinduism that ALL religions are forms of spirituality
to be respected and even to be learned from -- as Ramakrishna demonstrated in
his own life by practicing Islam as well as Christianity).  In pre-independence
India, when the immediate concern of everyone, both secular and fanatic,
was to free India, one could afford to take the best in "Ananda Math" (its
nationalistic fervour) and ignore the worst (its exclusion of large segments
of the Indian population).  Now that we are an independent nation, can we
afford not to stamp out every form of religious and other intolerance?  If
indeed we do want to identify with Hinduism in our personal lives, do we want
to give our religion a bad name by preaching a blind and violent form of
intolerance?
   The bottom line is -- and this is my question to you -- do you want to be
identified with a Hindu India or a secular and tolerant India?  Considering
that there are over 10,000 subscribers to this network, I would fervently
hope that the majority voice on this network is not a Hindu fundamentalist one.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 10:00:48 +0000 (GMT)
From: Rahul Dasgupta <DasguptaR@earth.leeds.ac.uk>
Subject: Vande Mataram

Ken Bryant among other things pointed out that the 4th paragraph is
objectionable for the muslims. To remind him only the first two paras of Vande
Mataram makes our national song. Even during struggle for independence Congress
incorporated only those two paragraphs, where I do not find anything
objectionable.

Secondly Anandmath is a novel which depicts a struggle against bad rulers -
unfortunately here the rulers happened to be muslims. That was the time when
Bengal was undegoing a radical change when British had already started their
exploitation and some rulers instead of putting any iota of resistance to
British spend their time with women and wine. The common people suffered; the
sanyasis offered or rather tried to resist this scenario. I think that, it is
the ideas of Anandamath which is important, not which religion is involved in
it.

Vande mataram was accepted by secularists like Nehru to be our national song. I
think my muslim brothers should not listen to their illiterate or semi-literate
maulanas or narrow-minded politicians and make a non-issue like this a matter
of worse consequence. We are all Indians; we should be proud with our heritage
and Vandemataram, I feel, is an object that any Indian should be proud of.

Somebody classifies that Anandamath is full of rabid racism. I do not
understand how she defines racism. I will be happy if somebody throws a light
on the subject. Is it similar to classifying Vidyasagar as class enemy and
beheading the statues of that great man?

Lastly, we have seen enough of  communalism. We have seen people die in the
streets of India due to riots. We must work for the economic upliftment of the
people of India, respect the very essence of Indian civilisation and adhere to
its very spirit.

------------------------------

                                Social Issues
                                =============

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 10:10:22 -0600
From: "Sreenivasa R. Yatham" <sry1@Ra.MsState.Edu>
Subject: Zillion mutinies

Ms Editor,

The following was part of a recent INN news digest item dealing with
prostitution and the social life of the people involved.

>>
           ``What can we do? We have to earn a living,'' said Shyama, the
eldest sister, brushing Naina's hair outside their three-room home
of mud bricks. ``The choice is dying of AIDS or dying of
starvation.''

.....

           Boy children are preferred elsewhere in male-dominated India,
but in Nandlalpura and other sex villages, they are neglected,
scruffy and ill-fed. The girls wear clean frocks, their hair is
brushed and braided, and, said Ms. Jain the social worker, they
``are always given better food.''
<<

Its sad, very very sad.

The irony of the state of affairs in our society is mind boggling.

I hope these news items did not go unnoticed by other netters.

Sreenivas

------------------------------

                                Spiritual/Religion
                                ==================

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 16:33:44 -1000 (GMT-10:00)
From: Rahul Sharma <s1226@kowande.Bond.edu.au>
Subject: Against all religions (Part 1/2)

Dear Believers,
               Religion is based, I think, primarily and mainly upon
fear. It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly the wish to feel
that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your
troubles and disputes. Fear is the basis of the whole thing - fear of the
mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty,
and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in
hand. It is because fear is at the basis of these two things. In this
world we can now begin to understand things, and a little to master them
by the help of science, which has forced its way step by step against all
religions, and against the opposition of all precepts. Science can help us
to get over this craven fear in which mankind has lived for so many
generations. Science can teach us, and I think our own hearts can teach
us, no longer to look around for imaginary supports, no longer to invent
allies in the sky, but rather to look to our own efforts here below to
make this world a fit place to live in, instead of the sort of place that
religions in all these centuries have made it.
     What we must do is stand upon our own feet and look fair and square
at the world - its good facts, its bad facts, its beauties and its
ugliness; see the world as it is and be not afraid of it. Conquer the
world and its problems by intelligense and not merely by being slavishly
subdued by the terror that comes from it. The whole conception of God is a
conception derived from ancient despotism. It is a conception quite
unworthy of free men. When you hear people
in church/temple/mosque/synagogue/gurdwara debasing themselves and saying
that they are misearable sinners, and all the rest of it, it seems
contemptible and not worthy of self-respecting human beings. We ought to
stand up and look the world frankly in the face. We ought to make the best
we can of the world, and if it is not so good as we wish, after all it
will still be better than what these religions have made of it in all
thses ages. A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does
not need a regretful hankering after the past or a fettering of the free
intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men. It needs a
fearless outlook and a free intelligence. It needs hope for the future,
not looking back all the time towards a past that is dead, which I trust
will be far surpassed by the future that our intelligence can create.
                                                        (To be continued)

------------------------------

End of India Interest Group Digest
**********************************