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Started by Uma Ramamurthy
Sat, 19 Mar 1994 03:06
India-D Digest - Mar 18
Author: Uma Ramamurthy
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 1994 03:06
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 1994 03:06
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44850 bytes
India Interest Group Digest Fri, 18 Mar 94 Volume 2: Issue 494
Today's Topics:
Economics/Development::
Reg. Info about getting started (Part 1/2)
What happened to ITP?
Immigration::
Is your spouse waiting to immigrate to US ? (Part 2/2)
Reg. Getting H-1B outside US
Reg. passport renewal
Summary of replies to my query on mother's visa
Miscellaneous::
Contributions to India Network fund
I Laid My Head Upon Your Sea
Rohit Khosla
Politics::
Ananda-Math
Anandmath & Muslim Bashing
On Neepa Mazumdar's posting on 03/17
Reg. Vande Matarama, response to Mr Brynt, Part 1/2
Solarz ends canidacy for India ambassadorship
The origins of the name Khan
Vande Mantram
Vande Mataram (5 msgs)
Spiritual/Religion::
Against all religions (Part 2/2)
Response to Najid Hussain
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Economics/Development
=====================
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 14:21:07 -0500 (EST)
From: KALAMDANI@pt5000.pto.ford.com (Rajeev Kalamdani)
Subject: Reg. Info about getting started (Part 1/2)
In response to Mr. Ramesh Maddukuri's request I am posting the following
information which I think will prove useful. Most of it I give from first
hand experience. A note of caution though, some of this may be out of date
due to the fact that my experiences date back to 1987/88. The venture I was
involved in was in Maharashtra State, there might be regional differences in
other states.
(1) The first step is to have a good technically feasible project with good
market potential (I am sure all of you prospective entrepreneurs have given
this a lot of thought). The hierarchy of preferences is: (a) Export oriented
(b) Import substitutes (c) Locally marketable product (d) Third party or
subcontracted jobs.
(2) The second step is to explore a place to do business from. This is not a
major hassle if the prospective business is service oriented and does not
require too much space. But if it is a manufacturing oriented business then
it requires to be in an industrial zone. These zones have been demarcated and
categorized by various states (I think the categories are A,B,C and D). D zones
are industrially backward zones and A zones are the highly developed ones.
More information can be obtained at the Industrial Development Corporations in
various states (MIDC for Maharashtra, KSIDC for Karnataka, etc.). The IDCs
provide undeveloped plots (just land) or developed plots (land and sheds) on
a leasehold basis (either outright purchase or installment plans). As far as
zones are concerned there are subsidies provided if one intends to set up shop
in a C or a D zone (I will talk about them later).
(3) After you have a project defined (broadly) and an idea about the location.
The business needs to be registered with the local Small Scale Industries
Development Corporation (MSSIDC for Maharashtra). This does not require
anything but a very broad description of the proposed business.
(To be continued)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 13:06:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Subramanian Gopalakrishnan <"lavc01::GOPAL"@cliff.bms.com>
Subject: What happened to ITP?
Dear Editor:
Of late, there is no mention about the ITP and its work. I wish we could have
more discussions for the development of Bharat than painting communal colors
to historic events/literature.
It's sad to note a subscriber lamenting about poor response for his request for
business opportunities in Bharat, whereas we see articles pouring on issues
which diverts the attention from developmental issues.
I request the convenor of the ITP to keep the netters posted of the developments
frequently.
Subramanian Gopalakrishnan
------------------------------
Immigration
===========
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 17:28:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Vimal Solanki <vimal@ans.net>
Subject: Is your spouse waiting to immigrate to US ? (Part 2/2)
About PSR - Professionals for Spouse Reunification
==================================================
Professionals for Spouse Reunification (PSR) is a voluntary
organization comprising of immigrant engineers, doctors, educators,
scientists, and other professionals. PSR is working nationwide to
bring this grave matter to the attention of lawmakers with the
objective of reuniting families of Permanent Residents in this
unfortunate plight. Many PSR members are presently involuntarily
separated from their spouses because of the aberration in the
immigrations law described above.
PSR has been trying very hard to promote passage of these
bills for some time. We have not been able to achieve the goal due to
lack of volunteers. If you are suffering from this problem, we
request you to join this effort.
PSR already has support from Irish Immigration Reform Movement
- IIRM on this issue. PSR would like to get support from and work
with other ethnic organization to resolve this matter. If you
can help in this process, please contact us.
How can you help ?
==================
Join PSR.
Join the group of people who are suffering from this problem
and have been fighting for a resolution. To subscribe to PSR mailing
list :
- send mail to p2-new@dopey.msd.anl.gov
- in the body of the message write,
subscribe p2-talk FirstName LastName
- The e-mail address for mailing list is
p2-talk@dopey.msd.anl.gov.
If you want someone to respond to any questions you might have,
please send mail to p2-talk-info@dopey.msd.anl.gov. Someone will
get back to you promptly.
PSR has been trying to generate support for this cause by
various means, e.g. by asking people to contact their local
senators/congressman/editors of papers, ethnic groups and so on.
Once you join PSR, we can send you more details about this effort.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 10:34:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Sriram Balasubramanian M.D." <BALASUBR@BEACH.UTMB.EDU>
Subject: Reg. Getting H-1B outside US
Dear Netters,
I would be very grateful if anyone can share any information about getting H-1B
visa outside US for the first time (not renewal). If I get any replies I will
summarize in the Digest.
Sincerely,
Sriram.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 08:24:51 -0500 (EST)
From: GUPTAA%AM.mrgate@aspen.uml.edu
Subject: Reg. passport renewal
hi netters ,
this is in regard to to jainamma's worry about renewing
a passport. if you have an indian passport, you can get it renewed at
the indian embassy at new york (even through mail). i am not sure if
this case applies to expired passport. call them up and find it out.
good luck
gupta
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 13:11:16 -0800 (PST)
From: sudhir@amarit.nsc.com (* Sudhir Gondhalekar *)
Subject: Summary of replies to my query on mother's visa
>I am the only child of my widowed mother who is 57yrs and is working as a
>Professor in India. I am a permanant resident and employed.
>My mother has never been to the US before.
>I wish to have my mother visit me this summer during her vacation. She was
>denied a visitors visa at Bombay recently just based on the fact that I
>was her only son and she had no family back home. Has anyone else been
>in a similar situation? What are our options? How can she convince the
>authorities that she doesnt intend to immigrate? (atleast not now :-) )
>Any tips, pointers, help is appreciated.
Many thanks to all those who responded to my query.
To summarize all the responses:
* Buy property in her name in India.
* Show the visa autorities a return ticket.
* Get a letter from your local congressman/ senator.
* Mother should get a leave of absense and documentation to that
effect instead of saying she is on vacation
* Emphasize family ties rather than tourist intentions.
* One response suggested she should type out an application for the issuance
of B-2 visa. This application should include:
1. Herself, her passport no. and her professional status
2. Her Income-Tax account no.
3. Bank accounts nos. and the amounts therein
4. Real estate possesed, if any, any the current market value.
5. (If she has been staying with any of her relatives for a long time,
then she can say that she is very attached to them, if they
ask her questions relating to this during the interview)
6. Letter from employer stating leave of absence.
I hope this summary is helpful to netters in the same boat.
--Sudhir
------------------------------
Miscellaneous
=============
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 11:15:58 -0600 (CST)
From: Dasari Tej <DTEJ@VAX2.CSTP.UMKC.EDU>
Subject: Contributions to India Network fund
Friends,
It is unbelievable that only 600 out of 15,000 subscribers have
contributed towards the India network fund. There must be something wrong
some where. My feeling is a lot these may have subscribed to India-D and
dropped off later on, vexed by some of the record breaking discussions we
have had recently. Either that or we have a record breaking bunch of free
loaders on the net.
My suggestion is that a "Hello.. are you there" kind of message
should be sent to all the 15000 subscribers to India-D asking if they would
like to continue on the net. Maybe some kind of a list or a directory or
some such thing should be started and the subscribers asked to register
therein. After a couple of reminders all those who do not respond may be
deleted from the distribution list. This may sound like a lot of work to
the India-D network managers. But I am convinced that this list will not
have 15,000 names on it.
Its a known fact that many students still manage to retain their
VAX accounts long after they have graduated and moved out of town/country.
Their mail messages keep piling unread till they cause a glut in the memory
on the Servers causing the Systems Manager to wake up and close these
accounts. I am sure something like this is happening to India-D
subscribers.
There is no point in straining the resources of India network
or the receipient servers all over the country for inactive subscribers.
Tej Dasari
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 13:05:45 +0100
From: Popowicz Alison <popowicz@sappey.grenoble.hp.com>
Subject: I Laid My Head Upon Your Sea
I Laid My Head Upon Your Sea
============================
I laid my head upon your sea
and the breathing swell of your substance
opened and emptied me into stillness.
And now I am drunk.
I am drunk on your substance.
But what can this substance be
that is the source of itself?
that is born without a mother or father
or birth?
that is all light without atmosphere?
that is all-sufficient and independent?
that makes me as drunk as stone?
Yet something in my being
remembers it,
replies to it,
rejoices in it,
recognises it as its own.
I am drunk on your substance,
so I can talk like this.
When I am drunk on your substance
I fall into a sea somewhere within myself.
That's when reason abandons me
and all this drunken talk starts!
It's like diving too deep into the sea
and running out of air and
there is no time to swim to the surface...
Then I resign myself to my predicament
and I open my mouth to breathe...
And the sea floods in...
It tickles... And I laugh.
by Mirek
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 12:36:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Ajay Kapur <ak161@columbia.edu>
Subject: Rohit Khosla
Dear Netters,
I am writing this message to announce the sad demise of Mr. Rohit Khosla
- India's finest designer and son of Mr. and Mrs. Kamal Khosla. Rohit had
a brilliant career and was a wonderful person. His untimely death in
London has left many of his friends and family mambers grief stricken. I
would appreciate receiving messages of condolence from you, which I would
like to convey to his parents in Delhi. My Email address is
Ak161@columbia.edu
Despite being diagnosed for cancer, he continued to work on new ventures
and was writing a book on fashions which could not be completed.He had
carved out a niche for himself in the international fashion industry and
did us Indians proud. I would therefore appreciate hearing from you in this
regard.
Sincerely,
Ajay Kapur
------------------------------
Politics
========
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 09:27:44 -0500
From: Choudhury <choudhur@cs.ucf.edu>
Subject: Ananda-Math
Rahul Dasgupta and another netter's points about Ananda-Math
being about bad rulers and being written to create a sense
of historical pride in contemporary Indians are perfectly
valid. In fact, the entire corpus of Bankim's work is strongly
infused by this zeal to promote an Indian renaissance by
creating a sense of historical pride. Ananda-Math is certainly
about bad rulers(in this case Muslims), but the interesting thing,
as Meenakshi Mukherji points out in "Realsim & Reality:The Novel & Society
in Modern India", is that Bankim was against the Muslim rulers, whom
he seemed to consider as parasitic and exploitative outsiders, as
against his oft-expressed sympathy for the common Muslim Bengali
farmer(who he saw as being as exploited as the common Hindu).
That's the historical perspective as it existed in Bankim's time.
The debate over Ananda-Math is, however, now in the present. At
the present time, forcing Muslims to sing Vande-Mataram is clearly
a political ploy by upper-caste Hindu obscurantists and bigots
for the sake of consolidating political power. But, there are
deeper issues connected with the deprived and backwards gaining
a decisive political voice in the Hindi belt, which is the least
literate and developed part of India, and the effort of the
Hindutva movement is really to crush this under a juggernaut
driven by an irrational fear and hatred of the 'other'(Islam)
as well as the backwards ('caste communalisation'). Hopefully,
the Indian masses in the villages will have both the political
sense and the common decency to see through this ruse and stop
the juggernaut of Hindutva totalitarianism (disguised as
nationalism, patriotism, and discipline). Otherwise, the very
existence of Indian democracy and of India as it now exists may
well be threatened. Notice that the real opposition to this sort
of totaliarianism never comes from the elite or the middle-class,
who will win either way, but from the masses (note for example
the Mexican Revolution early in this century). The other saving
grace is that so far the Hindutva wave has not really spread any
place outside the Hindi belt, although that may very well change
if power is not decentralised to the villages by land reform and
Panchayati Raj quickly enough.
Sudipto Roy Choudhury
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 09:22:05 -0500 (EST)
From: ogale@tekelec.com (Jayant Ogale)
Subject: Anandmath & Muslim Bashing
It was nice to see so many rational people coming to defend muslims.
I did not see any body mention objective things. If Anadmath is
anti-muslim then Koran is anti-hindus, anti-jews, anti-christian.
My muslim bretheren did not protest when they heard that Kashmir was
shown as an independen entiy but not part of India by muslim minister
in Kerala Govt. I did not hear them protest against anti-non-muslim verses
in Koran.
Well there are castes & sub-catstes in Hinduism which are born out of
practice and of course because of abuse of power by Upper Casts. But
no Hindu Upanishadas/Bhagvad Gita spread castism. Manusmruti advocates
it, but manusmruti does not constitute gosple for hindu people. Cast system
should be eradicated and as it will be for majority of hindus listen to rational
voice ( eventhough it might be dissenting voice ). Whereas muslims from
Bangala Desh can't seem to tolerate and lsiten Taslima Nasreen.
So in conclusion there might be Hindu Fanatics but they are in minority but
there are Muslim Fanatics who are in majority....
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 20:30:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Shrisha Rao <shrisha@lcl.cmu.edu>
Subject: On Neepa Mazumdar's posting on 03/17
(stuff deleted)
>Now that we are an independent nation, can we
>afford not to stamp out every form of religious and other intolerance? If
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there a fundamental self-contradiction
here? Does it make sense to "stamp out" intolerance in others while keeping it
secure within ourselves? If so, what is there to prevent others from saying
"Now that we are in independant nation, can we not be fascist/fundamentalist/
theocratic/communist ..." by stamping out every form of intolerance to their
views? How are we to consider ourselves morally superior to people who hold
such views?
>indeed we do want to identify with Hinduism in our personal lives, do we want
>to give our religion a bad name by preaching a blind and violent form of
>intolerance?
It seems to me that an essential premise to this argument here is that
Hinduism is a despicable school of thought, and that to associate with it is
to commit a shameful act akin to moral turpitude. I do not subscribe to this,
and have no trouble openly associating with Hinduism, and I also take
note of the fact that people like Gandhiji and Tilak had no trouble either.
As regards the aspect which gives "our religion a bad name," I can only say
that it is not obvious to me that acts of individuals or small groups of
misguided zealots gives a religion a bad name. Why aren't you saying that
Jim Jones and David Koresh gave Christianity a bad name, or that Khomeini and
Aurangzeb gave Islam a bad name?
> The bottom line is -- and this is my question to you -- do you want to be
>identified with a Hindu India or a secular and tolerant India?
I think there is no difference between my identity as a Hindu and my identity
as an Indian. My identity is a composite, and cannot be realistically
partitioned and itemized; any such would be wholly artificial. Secularism and
tolerance are part of the Hindu identity. It is perhaps anachronistic to be
a Hindu, as many people have observed, since the line of thinking which seems
to predominate, of late, is that the solution to all the problems of the world
lie in eliminating all Jews/Arabs/communists/capitalists/liberals/...
(pick whichever is applicable).
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 10:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Dinesh Agarwal <DXA4@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Reg. Vande Matarama, response to Mr Brynt, Part 1/2
Mr Ken Brynt has greatly faulted in ascribing anti-Islam/Muslim bias in origin
of the national song 'Vandematrama'. It is true that the novel Anandmath has a
backdrop of communal riots and a revolt against the tyranny of the rulers of
that time, but the origin and composition of VM has nothing to do with this. In
fact VM was composed by Bankim even before he penned Anandmath.
How Bankim saw the wonderful vision that worked as a most powerful spiritual
lever in the movement for his country's liberation, how he immortalised that
vision in the hymn are not fully known. But this much is known that one auspic-
ious moment arrived, in 1875, when Bankim took a holiday to escape from the
hectic life of Calcutta. He boarded a train bound for his native town Kantala-
pada. As the city left behind,there was greenry all around and his heart filled
with joy. The contemplation of the motherland with her rich rivers, flowers,
fruits and forests sent a pulsating current through Bankim. In that instant the
sod was turned into divinity by magic. His eyes and ears became alert, hungry.
His inner eye beheld the motherland in all her rich variety and beauty; his
inner ear listened to voices from the earth, the air and the sky. And Nature
begot her song!She gave it to benevolent Bankim! He bowed and received the gift
And then he reduced it to writing, as one who saw and heard the whole of it.
VANDE MATARAM!
Those lakes, and rivers, the sacred Ganga, Jamuna, Godavari, Saraswati,
Narmada, Sindhu, Kaveri; and those groves laden with fruits of many kinds,
a very paradise on earth; and the soft breeze which gently kisses as it
passes by; and the endless greenry....
Sujalam suphalam, Malayaja sheetalam, Sasya shyamalam, Mataram!
And the land bathed in moonlight, trees and creepers gay with tender leaves
and flowers, the sweet smile and melodious voice.....
Shubhra jyotsna pulakitayamineem, Phullakusumita drumadala shobhineem
Suhasineem sumadhura bhashineem, Sukhadam, varadam Mataram!
And the leonine roar that issues from multi-million throats; the blinding
flash of millions of swords leaping up in an instant; and the spectacle of
unfettered strength triumphantly trampling the enemy under its elephantine foot
Koti koti kantha kalakala ninadakarale, Koti koti bhujairdhrutakharakaravale
Ke bale ma tumi abale, Bahubala dharineem, Namami tarineem, Ripudala varineem
Mataram!
The ancient land of giver of the Vedas, and those centers of devotion,
power and knowledge....
Tumi vidhya tumi dharma, Tumi hridi tumi marma, Twam hi pranah shareere
Bahute tumi ma shakti, Hridaye tumi ma bhakti, Tomarayi pratima gadi
Mandire mandire! ...... ....... ....... .......
The song was born, Bankim put the infant in the cradle of Anandamath.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 07:28:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Amir Tuteja <mini@access.digex.net>
Subject: Solarz ends canidacy for India ambassadorship
From the WASHINGTON POST of March 18, 1994:
"The on-again, off-again candidacy of former representative
Stephen J. Solarz (D-NY) to be ambassador to India is officially
over, brought to a close by administration concerns over the nine-
term Democrat's relationship with a Hong Kong businessman believed
to have ties to organized crime.
Solarz said yesterday that he met Sunday with President
Clinton's national security advisor, Anthony Lake, and deputy
advisor Samual R "Sandy" Burger to discuss concerns that the
possible nomination, never formally sent to the Senate, could be
derailed by allegations that Solarz improperly helped the
businessman to obtain a visa.
"Given the difficulties being experienced over there", in
confirmation battles and a climate where "innocent acts are
transformed into putative crimes," Solarz said he felt he had to
withdraw. Solarz had been officially retained by the businessman
shortly after his 1992 election loss to work on international
banking matters. As soon as he discovered the underworld connection
in early 1993, Solarz said, "I disassociated myself from him."
Solarz said that he had assumed that once the FBI had
investigated the allegations and the Justice Department decided not
to press criminal charges, his nomination would proceed.
Administration officials had indicated recently that would be
the case. But the FBI report, which Solarz said detailed "at best
what are misunderstandings" between himself and a US consular
official in Hong Kong, raised enough questions that administration
officials grew fearful of a bloody confirmation battle.
Sources said Undersecretary of Defence for Policy Frank Wisner
is under consideration for the post."
I have also heard another name being mentioned in the
diplomatic party circuit: the ex-Governor of Ohio - Celeste.
Whosoever the nominee is I believe administration will move very
quickly now to fill the post.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 01:36:17 +0000 (GMT)
From: juan@merle.acns.nwu.edu
Subject: The origins of the name Khan
This is just to clarify that the word khan does not represent muslims. It
has its origin among the early Mongols, and it can be assumed that the
muslim kings of central asia, were either their descendents or borrowed it
to sound more intimidating because of the terror in Ghengiz Khan's
( ca. 1500 b.c, I think) name.
This is NOT an anti-muslim post, however.
I believe that associating names with religions is a trap. It blurs one's
vision and one can only form biased opinions from such a state of mind.
If only we could remember individual names without associating religion with
them, we MIGHT see that the world can become a very different place just by
changing oneself.
I am not using my own email account. Please don't send me mail here.
Brij Dehiya
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 94 16:55:42 WST
From: anoop@ee.uwa.edu.au (Anoop Malaviya)
Subject: Vande Mantram
Dear Editor,
Some of your contributors, seems to miss the following:
* Bankim wrote his novel, in an era when "Khans" in Bengal still represented
the political power. He was voicing against corrupt politicians and the
social structures that allowed and faciltated social corruption. That was
an era when women in India did not had any social status. Social standing
of poor and deprived was no better. Most of Hindu, population was deprieved.
* Congress adopted, this song in 30s, to underline Indians were still deprived.
However, the symbol of social power were British and their social allies.
* As you know, if you change the context of data, the information changes.
And if you cahnge the context of information, the abstract knowledge changes.
Therefore, the meaning carried by the same song, as adopted by congress
though being in the same class, is different. It has nothing to do with
Muslims as a Caste.
Whole debate seems to be pointless. Infact, if adpot this song now in
the place of Jan-Man, it will be carry different meaning all togaether.
Anoop Malaviya
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 22:21:11 -0500
From: Arghya Deb <deb@soil.Princeton.EDU>
Subject: Vande Mataram
This is in response to Ken Bryant's posting on Vande Mataram. The Sannyasis in
Ananda Math,were fighting a Muslim oppressor whose rapine and plunder knew no
end, whose ruinous taxation scheme had contributed to the death of millions.In-
stead of arranging for relief, Md. Reza Khan and his minions scoured the count-
ryside exacting the last farthing from a peasantry in its death throes.
The Sannyasis are fighting the trained Muslim soldiers of the Nawab. Mr. Bryant
finds fault with Bankim Chandra's use of the expression `long beards'. Perhaps
he would have preferred something infinitely more endearing and far more refin-
ed, such as the epithet `Huns', much in favour with the British in describing
the Germans during WW II? The Sannyasis attack on a Muslim village too must be
read in its proper context. Without attempting to justify it, I regard it as an
accurate reflection of reality. The Sannyasi rebellion was a religious mobiliz-
ation, to protest the wrongs of an oppressor, who had far too often used relig-
ion as a weapon of aggression against his Hindu subjects. It is perhaps not un-
natural to expect the lines demarcating proper and ethical action to get
blurred in such a context.
As regards Bankim Chandra's antipathy towards Muslims, I quote the following
passage from S.N. Mukherjee and Marian Madderns book. They in turn have referr-
ed to Rezaul Karim's book `Bankim Chandra o Muslim Samaj'.
``It seems that the evidence favours Karim's thesis that the novelist was a
nationalist and not a communalist and that his historical and semi-historical
novels were written to inspire the reader to fight tyranny and defend the
motherland. No doubt in most of his historical novels all villains are Muslims.
But they are part of the ruling Muslim dynasties bent upon destroying peace,
property and religions of their subjects. There are furthermore, many Muslim
heroes in Bankim Chandra's novels and some courageous Muslims. Osman is a
chivalrous and courageous soldier, Ayesha is a courageous woman, openly dec-
laring her love for a Hindu prince who is imprisoned by her father(*). Even in
Sitaram, the novel which is supposed to have been written in his reactionary
and communalist phase, there is Chand Shah, a Muslim holyman who is depicted as
a pious and upright person. In Rajsingha, we meet Mobarak, a brave and loyal
soldier. Bankim Chandra himself warned his readers not to think of his novels
as anti-Muslim works written to glorify Hinduism: "It is not true to say that
all Hindus are good and all Muslims bad. There is good and bad in both in both
communities. Aurangzeb was unrighteous and hence with his reign starts the beg-
inning of the downfall of the Mughals. Rajsingha was righteous, hence although
a ruler of a small kingdom he could humiliate and defeat the Mughal.This is the
message of this book [Rajsingha]...".''(*) Incidentally, in Durgeshnandini,
Bankim Chandra's description of Ayesha's wondrous beauty and noblity of charac-
ter, is, in my opinion, unmatched by any other female character in his novels.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 16:06:00 +0100
From: Akshay.Bakhai@CTRL.bbl-test.rtt.be (Akshay Bakhai)
Subject: Vande Mataram
The Vividh Bharati services of the All India Radio begins its morning
sessions with a chanting of Vande Mataram. This is just for information.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 13:44:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: SINHA@UTSW.SWMED.EDU
Subject: Vande Mataram
There was a posting by Ken Bryant attempting to justify why Vande Mataram
should not be sung by Muslims. The first argument he gives is by quoting
Naresh Chandra Sengupta ("its heroes are frankly hostile to Mussulmans") and
Asit Bandyopadhyaya ("tirade against the Muslims is actually a disguised
attack on the tyrannical British administration").
That is precisely what the novel is all about. As conquerers and rulers
who failed in their duty - by failing to check the British, and who had
little or no respect for the Hindus, the anger of the author has been directed
towards those who allowed the country to be taken over by another set of
foreigners. Nowhere have the conquered and oppressed ever sung praises of their
rulers. His attack on the British was necessarily disguised as he was a
magistrate of the British administration.
The second argument - about the duality of the identity of the "Mother" is
not relevant. Those muslims who reacted anaphylactically to the "kafirs" or
the Hindu customs got their share of the cake and went to Pakistan. The ones
that stayed behind believed they could stay with the Hindus inspite of their
"idolatory", and it is only natural that they understand that to the Hindu the
distinction between the various Gods and Godesses and Mother India is very
subtle, and so even if they themselves not believing that Mother India is same
as Durga, Lakshmi, Saraswati or Kali, they should have no hesitation in singing
Vande Mataram only as a prayer to Mother India, even if not acknowledging
Durga and others. I repeat this may not be acceptable to all Muslims, but then
to those to whom it is not have already gone to Pakistan. In fact Ken himself
acknowledges that in the first three stanzas of the song there is nothing to
complicate this identification.
What is surprising is that neither Mahatma Gandhi or Pandit Nehru felt that
Muslims ought to feel humiliated by singing Vande Mataram. Is it because they
were too stupid to understand such reasoning or worse - are we to believe that
they too were rabid Hindu fundamentalists? Even a non-controversial organisation
like the Ramakrishna Mission has got Vande Mataram at top of the list of their
patriotic songs. Are they too Muslim haters?
Finally, Ken himself acknowledges that Vande Mataram is a "powerful song
with a noble history". I think that by not singing Vande Mataram, it is the
Muslims who are insulting the Hindus by refusing to acknowledge the generosity
of Hindus in keeping India secular. Just think of Pakistan for a second.
Partha Sinha
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 16:05:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Ken.Bryant@mtsg.ubc.ca
Subject: Vande Mataram
Ashish Ray assures us that Anandamath instilled in him only the best senti-
iments. I'm sure that's so; I'm in no way arguing that we should toss out
the book. It's of enormous historical importance, and it would probably be
a good thing if students all over India read it, and read the words to Vande
Mataram. Rahul Dasgupta reminds us that only the first two stanzas of Vande
Mataram were sung in political contexts, and that too is true.
But let's remember what started this controversy. It's not an argument about
whether or not there is merit in the novel, or in the song. It's an argument
about whether it is just, or reasonable, to pass a law requiring Muslim school
children to recite that song every day, as an article of faith, and
(implicitly) as a test of patriotism.
So, the version they have to sing has the offending verse removed. Come on,
Rahul: imagine that there were a famous song which took a religious position
that you simply could not agree with. Imagine then that someone said to you:
"By law, your child must sing this song every day, and must seem to believe
it; but don't worry, we'll chop out the worst bit." Would you buy it? Would
you be able to forget the rest of the song, pretend that it didn't exist? In
your own mind, the main context for Vande Mataram song is the independence
movement; but the context of the original novel still sits there, and won't
go away, and you can't expect Muslims to ignore it, particularly in something
as emotionally wrought for all of us as a question of what our children are
required by law to do. If patriotism must be proven, there are other ways
to prove it.
And while Ashish rightly has fond memories of that passage in which the
Sannyasi lectures Mahendra about selfless dedication, there is a nearby
passage (the last line in chapter 4, part two) in which that same Sannyasi
lectures that same Mahendra:
"amra rajya cahi na--kebol musalmanera bhagbaner bidveshi boliya tahader
sabanshe nipat korite cai"--i.e., "We don't want to rule--only, because of
the Muslims' enmity to God, we want to destroy them, with their whole race."
By all means, let's remember the plea for selfless dedication; but let's
not be surprised if some people find it hard to forget the plea for genocide.
Ken Bryant
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 13:12:00 +0000 (GMT)
From: Rahul Dasgupta <DasguptaR@earth.leeds.ac.uk>
Subject: Vande Mataram
I feel we are getting some confused responses about the ills of Vandemataram,
Anandamath and finally Bankimchandra. Originally the discussion started whether
Muslims should sing the two paragraphs of Vandemataram, which constitute our
national song or not. It does not matter what was the views of Bankimchandra on
Bengal enlightement or whether he sided the fundementalist elements or not. It
is only the two paragraphs of the song which is question, not the entire gamut
of Bankim's character and literature. I donot think anybody will find anything
objectionable in those two paras; and then why making noise of that. Bankim
might have had dogmatic ideas, may be he thought of Hindu state only, may be
Anandmath sings of hindu revivalism as said by many (these may be subjects of
debate), but all these does not demerit the two paras of the national song. The
arguments against Vandemataram are now becoming like the ones which tried to
link Janaganamana to Tagore's appeasement to British rulers. Please let us not
be confused about fighting the hindutva brigade with the virtues of Vande-
mataram. No sane person will believe that India can be taken back to pre-1050AD
situation. Muslims are part of India alongwith Kathak, Moglai food etc. Yes we
want a hindu religion, in that case any religion, to be tolerant. That does not
mean we will throw Vandemataram to the dustbin. It is our national song and it
will remain so and every citizen of India should feel pride to sing the great
song.
Rahul Dasgupta
------------------------------
Spiritual/Religion
==================
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 16:33:44 -1000 (GMT-10:00)
From: Rahul Sharma <s1226@kowande.Bond.edu.au>
Subject: Against all religions (Part 2/2)
Of all the nations of the world my ideas are most apllicable to India
where just on the basis of religion; 200,000 were killed during the
partition riots, 10,000 during the 1984 riots, 4000 in the Bhagalpur
riots, and approximatly 3000(not sure) during the Babri Masjid fiasco.
These are just the numbers after independence....not counting all the
minor percecutions which occur all the time on the name of God. The human
suffering and misery is incalculable. Believe me, we don't need a God who
now threatens the very existence of our country. No, don't tell me what is
happenning now is not preached by the religions, I don't care, its a
direct result of it - isn't it? Thats enough evidence to convince me and
I hope any other reasonable minded person that religion is the root of
nearly all the problems our world and country is facing today.
I'll be happy to debate any person on any matter I have discussed in
this messsage, privately or publically.
Cheers,
Rahul
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 18:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Usman Khan <IZZY4GF@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: Response to Najid Hussain
I started reading the digest again after several months, and I found as a
pleasant surprise, the Hindu-Muslim flames that had engulfed the digest
when I gave up reading last had been extinguished. Now a person with a
seemingly Muslim name, Mr Najid Hussain, is the pilot light for possibly a
new flame war. I have never been dragged in the mud by these damn flames.
I never resort to attacking the faiths that my brothers/sisters hold dear.
I know that such actions are only self destructive. I have only looked
to Hinduism, Sikhism, Judaism, Christianity and other faiths for the best
they have to offer. I have tried to understand them in depth and respect
them all. I also have come to the conclusion that in their essence they
all come from the Divine Being, whatever you may call him(Buddhists believe
in enlightenment; then he/she/it IS Enlightenment; Parsis call him Ahura Mazda,
the meaning is the same).
I want to reach out to people on the net who agree with me that as the most
advanced species on the earth, we are for lack of better words "children of
the Divine", regardless of which label of faith we give ourselves. Does it
matter whether you call yourself a Hindu and I myself a Muslim? I think of
much greater meaning is how I treat you and vice versa. If I exude love
for all around me then people will not see me as a Muslim or a Jew or what-ever
but as a good person. Isn't that what the Creator wants? That we all respect
and care for each other? Even atheists would agree that that would be
a useful outlook on life. Non-Muslims forgive me when I use the Muslim
version of God's words as an example; it is the one I am most conversant with:
"If you love me(Allah), then love your fellow creatures first". Not fellow
Muslims, not necessarily even fellow humans, but fellow creatures. That
includes every damn thing that is living. In Punjabi this is tranlated:"Pellay
yaar nu manna je thu rab nu mannana", and is sung in Qawwalis throughout the
Punjab at tombs of saints that are revered by Muslims, Sikhs, and Hindus
alike. You know, South Asia had these ideas down so long ago, I really
wonder how this knowledge has been lost in the present day. I pray and
act to change the closed-mindedness of people who cling to labels. Yes
I am a Muslim. But I also am a Hindu in that I believe in much of the truths of
the Upanishads. I am a Jew because I also "praise God"(the meaning of Yahud,
the Hebrew version of Jew). I am a Christian in that I follow the teachings of
Christ.
Intolerance stems from Ignorance.LOVE THY NEIGHBOR, EVEN IF PAKISTANI/INDIAN
"I hope someday you'll join us, and the world will be as one"(in the words of
John Lennon)
Peace to all...
Usman Khan
------------------------------
End of India Interest Group Digest
**********************************
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