🚀 go-pugleaf

Extropians List Digest       Thu, 11 Jun 1992       Volume 92 : Issue   0001

    Selected messages from the Extropians list.  To join, send to:
    <extropians-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu>.  Messages from the Extropians
    list may not be cross-posted without permission from the poster.
    Such permission has been obtained for all messages in this Digest.

    Hal Finney
    Extropians Digest Moderator

Today's Topics:

		  Black hole suspension (4 messages)
		       Snow Crash (2 messages)
		  Hydergine, Request for studies on,
		     Cryonics infects the masses?
		       [Ted Nelson on nanotech]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 92 21:37:02 CDT
From: uunet!midway.uchicago.edu!twb3 (Tom Morrow)
To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: Black hole suspension

Imagine you suffer a disease that threatens to force you into suspension
soon, but don't care for the icy fix.  You get in a well-provisioned
spacecraft and steer for the nearest black hole.  As you near the event
horizon, those outside the hole looking in see you fall more and more
slowly, until at last you appear to stop moving altogether.  Looking
outward, on the other hand, you see the outside world speed up until it
galaxies whirl about their axes.  (This, at least, is my rudimentary
understanding of the subjective experience of black hole bungee jumping.)

Though it is not a gamble I would care to take, it occurs to me that this
might offer a "natural" alternative to cryonic suspension.  Set aside the
fact that disease will be ancient history by the time we're able to visit
black holes, and that *even if* lack of a cure did drive you to jump into a
black hole those pesky tidal forces that would rip you to shreds--set all
that aside and the ideal has a certain appeal.  You would only have to sit
back, watch the stars spin, and wait for some future civilization to figure
out a way to rescue you.  And for them to want to do so.  I guess you would
have to make yourself look interesting, like a bug trapped in amber that
sports an knowing look.

Then again, liquid nitrogen does have certain charms . . . .

T.O. Morrow                        --  twb3@midway.uchicago.edu
Law & Politics Editor:   EXTROPY   --  Journal of Transhumanist Thought
Associate Executive Director: ExI  --  The Extropy Institute

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 92 23:57:45 EDT
From: uunet!gnu.ai.mit.edu!rjc
To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Black hole suspension


   How about building a probe, placing your body in it, and
accelerating away from the earth near the speed of light.
(a side effect is, you get to explore the galaxy) Let's suppose
you have 6 months to live, and a cure is atleast 10 years away.
You want to experience a subjective time of 6 months while earth
ages ~10 years.

    Pick a destination 5 light years away. Total distance
(to destination and back) is 10 light-years. Your speed is
n (in units of c).  Total time observed from earth is 10/n
(distance/rate). Total time observed by traveler is
sqrt( (10/n)**2 - 10**2)) (distance formula in minkowski space).

  .5 (6 months) = sqrt((10/n)**2 - 10**2)
  .25 = 100/n**2 - 100
   n**2 = 100/100.25
   n = sqrt(100/100.25) = .99875c

 So you need to attain speed of .99875c and travel a distance of
10 light years to experience a subjective time of 6months
(while 10 years pass in real-time)  The actual time that passes
on earth is 10/.99875 = 10.0125 or 10 years and 1 and 1/2 months.

(note: This does not take into account the time to accelerate/decelerate
and turn around. I'm not a physicist nor do I know relativity. I
studied non-euclidean vector spaces in Linear Algebra, including
minkowski geometry. The inner product in minkowski space is
 <X,Y> = sqrt(-x1y1 -x2y2 - x3y3 + x4y4) (x4 is the time coordinate).
In minkowski geometry, the time observed by a traveler on
a path is equal to the magnitude of the vector that respresents the
path. According to my text, minkowski geometry is what we live in,
euclidean is only an approximation.  And can be used to calculate
time dilations.)

   Perhaps one of the physicists on the list can do the calculations
for acceleration/deceleration, assuming 1.5g. (can the human
body withstand 1.5g for 6 months? Perhaps since this is an unhealthy
person, we should assume 1g)  It would be interesting to know
the power required to accelerate a 4 ton probe to .99875c. I assume
there's a terminal velocity in space because of the interstellar gas,
but let's not worry about it.

  The problem with the black hole idea is the tidal forces exerted
on you near the event horizon. You'd probably be ripped apart, or die
before you could travel to a black hole.  Maybe you could be put
in orbit a good distance from the event horizon, just enough to
cause a large time dilation, but not enough to kill you or prevent
you from being retrieved.

-Ray


-- Email to rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu -- CUT HERE -- PGP Public Key --
begin 644 rjc_gnu.pub
MF9( 0^GT*0Q287D@0W)O;7=E;&S> S$H1?-XL4<O1W$\I R?52(Q;+BKXT18
MRL#U[S=.;N%5:+I'0A$#M0'-87PP8@X+>3B+E,MUK.V<)B(HNM8<6MN63J3
M(>!I?7LPJOW8N$720'LO@.N$G]5BX!N[,!#+%(G6BWJ6(,>RT5*7$,&G_+Q;
.28^$>OV+38WF93P% !,O

end

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 1:27:29 EDT
From: uunet!gnu.ai.mit.edu!rjc
To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Black hole suspension

>  <X,Y> = sqrt(-x1y1 -x2y2 - x3y3 + x4y4) (x4 is the time coordinate).

   Correction. The inner product in minkowski space time is
<X,Y> (X and Y are vectors) -x1y1 - x2y2 - x3y3 + x4y4.
The distance between 2 points in space is defined by the
magnitude of the vector spanning those points. Magnitude of a vector
is defined by the square root of the inner product with itself.
Distance in minkowski space is sqrt(-x1**2 - x2**2 -x3**2 +t**2)
(t=x4). It is essentially the same as the pythagorean distance
formula except that the space components are negative and the time
component is positive.

(for the people who don't know what an inner product it, it is essentially
a kinda of dot product. The inner product in euclidean space is
defined by x1y1 + x2y2 + x3y3. )

   I finally found a use for all that abstract math I learned. ;-)

-- Email to rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu -- CUT HERE -- PGP Public Key --
begin 644 rjc_gnu.pub
MF9( 0^GT*0Q287D@0W)O;7=E;&S> S$H1?-XL4<O1W$\I R?52(Q;+BKXT18
MRL#U[S=.;N%5:+I'0A$#M0'-87PP8@X+>3B+E,MUK.V<)B(HNM8<6MN63J3
M(>!I?7LPJOW8N$720'LO@.N$G]5BX!N[,!#+%(G6BWJ6(,>RT5*7$,&G_+Q;
.28^$>OV+38WF93P% !,O

end

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 92 23:10:17 PDT
From: uunet!ghsvax!hal (Hal Finney)
To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: Black hole suspension

In relativity, space and time can be measured by the same units, with
the conversion factor being the speed of light.  Since the speed of
light is constant in all reference frames, it is special and so
provides an unambiguous way to convert.

Thus, a nanosecond is about a foot, a second is 186,000 miles, and a
year is a light-year.

Acceleration, being distance/time^2, has units of 1/time in
relativity.  It turns out that Earth's gravitational acceleration of
9.8 m/s^2 is approximately 1/year.  Physically, this means that it
takes roughly 1 year to accelerate to close to the speed of light.

That means in Ray's example of the man who had six months to live,
he's going to have to accelerate at at least several g's in order to
get close enough to the speed of light in three months.

I don't have my references handy to get a more exact number, but I
could work it out if people are interested.

(In general relativity, you also measure mass by distance (and
therefore time).  The mass of an object is basically the diameter to
which it would have to be compressed to become a black hole.  Earth's
mass is about 1/2 centimeter, a small fraction of a nanosecond.  Earth
is almost not there in general relativistic terms!)

Hal Finney
ghsvax!hal@uunet.uu.net				...!uunet!ghsvax!hal
Permission is granted to freely reproduce this message.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 09:25:47 BST
From: uunet!oasis.icl.co.uk!srs (Steve Strong)
To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: (Unknown)


In article <9206100357.AA27069@albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu> you write:
:
:   The problem with the black hole idea is the tidal forces exerted
: on you near the event horizon. You'd probably be ripped apart, or die
: before you could travel to a black hole.  Maybe you could be put
: in orbit a good distance from the event horizon, just enough to
: cause a large time dilation, but not enough to kill you or prevent
: you from being retrieved.

If you find a sufficiently large black hole, you would have no trouble
orbiting it around the event horizon. Tidal forces only come into
play near the 'surface' of the hole, and the event horizon get further
away from the surface as the hole gets bigger. Providing you do not
cross the event horizon, there would be no trouble in leaving the hole,
either. If you cross the horizon though, you may need some new physics
to get you out (I guess you could wait until you get out by quantum
tunnelling, might take quite a while, though, with a 4 ton probe :-)

Steve
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Strong - email srs@oasis.icl.co.uk      | Wasn't me. I didn't say that.
               voice 44 344 424842 extn 2279  | Definitely got the wrong guy.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 92 23:20:44 PDT
From: uunet!xanadu.com!tribble (E. Dean Tribble)
To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: Snow Crash

This book was worth the price for the first 10 pages.  I'm 100 pages
in and it is still going!

It's a satire of cyberpunk (while still being cyberpunk) with the best
(and soundest) descriptions of the other side that I've seen (he's
clearly seen Habitat).  Just as part of the background it makes good
points on user-interface design and such.  Much of the world walks the
fine line of being ridiculous but sound enough to make you twitch, and
the result is continual insights that are hysterically funny.  He
incorporates good future technology go into some very wierd corners
(skateboards with active suspension, and a whole class of couriers
that use magnetically attached cables to hitch rides from passing
motorists...).

Oh.  Did I forget to mention the collapse of the government and the
rise of the private sector: the Hoosgow competes with The Clink as
jails, Fairlanes competes with some other company with private
freeways (one optimized for speed, the other for comfort), private
BurbClaves compete to have you live there...

And the thing is full of callbacks (references to earlier jokes that
are even more funny).  If this keeps going I'm going to be giggling
for weeks....

Even though I haven't the faintest idea of the plot yet, I recommend
it strongly.  There's some religious stuff creeping in; I wonder what
he'll do with that.

Enjoy!
dean

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 08:47:39 PDT
From: uunet!xanadu.com!tribble (E. Dean Tribble)
To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: Snow Crash, the author

More details:  Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson published by Bantam Books.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1992 10:02:40 -0500 (CDT)
From: RAPH@FNAL.FNAL.GOV (Jim Hawtree <RAPH@FNAL.FNAL.GOV>)
To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: Hydergine, Request for studies on,

People:

I am looking for research studies done on Hydergine (ergoloid mesylates), one
of the most popular nootropics.

My personal physician has perscribed it for me, but the US recommended dose is
3mg daily.  An effective amount is considered about 10mg, I have heard, for
life extension purposes, but he would feel better about prescribing more if he
could find some of the studies done elsewhere where larger doses are used; and
where it is used as a nootropic.  My physician and I would like to get some
copies of reseach done on this (and also perhaps Eldeperyl (deprenyl) and
choline chloride).  I am not looking so much for articles from popular books,
newspapers and magazines, but rather for the actual research papers showing
dosage, safety, patient-years, etc.  I would especially appreciate hardcopies
as well as email; I am willing to pay for duplication and postage.
Unfortunately, I am not near a medical college where I could have easy access
to such abstracts.  (and since I am moving, most of my books are packed)

I am willing to send copies of anything that I receive to other interested
parties in the future; here at this big research facility we have a lot of
copiers available  ;-) .

Can anyone lend a hand here??  When I get enough, I would like to send out a
summary of what I have found.

Thanks in advance, Jim Hawtree
<raph@fnal.fnal.gov>
{{anyone going to PSG? If so, let's get together there!}}

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 92 21:11:08 PDT
From: uunet!xanadu.com!tribble
To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: Cryonics infects the masses?

[ Responding to a message about negative consequences of cryonic
suspension becoming popular ]

What's the goal of your message?  I doubt that painting emotional
scare scenarios is a good tactic with which to accomplish it.

The proposed scenarios seem irresponsibly bad, because they exaggerate
a potential or imagined downside without presenting any perspective
from which to view them.

1) If lots of people wanted cryonics, the cost would go way down.
2) Governments won't care about cryonics until there are some major
companies with lots of people signed up.  As bad as the government is,
cryonics will be way down on the list of things to nationalize.
3) Concrete galoshes still work just fine thanks :-)

4 & 5 just seem out of touch.  Poor countries have lots of other
things to worry about, and by the time there are colonies in space,
they won't be on planets (why climb out of 1 gravity well just to fall
into another?), and nanotech will have obsoleted cryonics.

dean

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 12:08:27 PDT
From: uunet!xanadu.com!tribble
To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: [Ted Nelson on nanotech]

   [Does Ted Nelson believe Nanotechnology will destroy us?]

Having just argued with him about this, I think his position is that
nanotech will work and we will completely wipe out the planet and
everything on it.  This is certainly a possibility, but I think I made
progress convincing him that we can improve our chances to survive.

dean

------------------------------

End of Extropians List Digest Volume 92 Issue #0001
***************************************************