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Hal's Extropians Digest      Fri, 12 Jun 1992       Volume 92 : Issue   0004

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    Hal Finney
    Extropians Digest Moderator

Today's Topics:
			 Ethics (7 messages)

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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 92 10:29 PDT
From: uunet!opus.dgi.com!jean (Blue Jean)
To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: Ethics


   > Do you ever voluntarily give to charity, for example, and if so, how do
   > you see it serving your self-interest?

yes, I do, on regular basis.

self-interest?

I guess it has more to do with how I feel afterwards.
It makes me feel warm inside knowing that for just a little while, I
made that person feel good.  The fact that I made someone happier than
they were before is good enough for me.

I know how I felt when I was on the receiving end.

-jeanie

jean@dgi.com
************************************
* Peaceful, honest people          *
* have the right to be left alone. *
************************************

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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 92 23:37:39 EDT
From: uunet!smds.com!fnerd (FutureNerd Steve Witham)
To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Ethics

There's an idea about a kind of selfish unselfishness, in Harry Browne's
classic "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World," that's always stuck with
me.  I am giving my own interpretation; you should read the book anyway.

He points out that if you're always honest to strangers in the presence of
friends, then you give the impression of being someone who is always
honest, no matter who he or she is dealing with.

Then your friends don't have to wonder whether they're your friends or not.

Of course there are other reasons for honesty, having to do with not having
to keep multiple stories straight.  Notice that both reasons have to do
with consistency.

Similar reasons probably apply to other kinds of charity and good
samaritanism.

-fnerd

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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 92 0:20:23 EDT
From: uunet!gnu.ai.mit.edu!rjc
To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Ethics

> He points out that if you're always honest to strangers in the presence of
> friends, then you give the impression of being someone who is always
> honest, no matter who he or she is dealing with.

  This may also have some relation to game theory and the
Prisoner's Dilemma.  In that, it is more beneficial in the long
term for two people to interact positively. A small percentage of
people (con men) may find a niche in cheating, but in the long
term, a society with honest transactions spontaneously evolves
because it is more stable and a positive transaction between two
members leads to better overall value. The honest people out-compete the
cheaters who eventually lose out due to their reputation.

-- Email to rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu -- CUT HERE -- PGP Public Key --
begin 644 rjc_gnu.pub
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M(>!I?7LPJOW8N$720'LO@.N$G]5BX!N[,!#+%(G6BWJ6(,>RT5*7$,&G_+Q;
.28^$>OV+38WF93P% !,O

end

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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 92 18:26:43 CDT
From: uunet!midway.uchicago.edu!twb3 (Tom Morrow)
To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Ethics

>   While I am very sympathetic with skeptical tone of Ray's comments, I think
>   it bears pointing out that the reasons for "absolute morality" involve more
>   than just conscious manipulation.  Often such moralities arise
>   spontaneously, and are adopted by custom.
>
> [ By definition, this is NOT an absolute morality. ]

I think you may have missed my point.  I am viewing absolute morality from
an outsider's point of view.  I grant that those who believe in such a
ethical system would deny vehemently that the truths that they hold eternal
sprung up spontaneously.  They would instead take the point of view that
you expressed:

> [ This is not an absolute morality; an absolute morality would
>   be one imposed by GOD. ]

But we presumably know better.  For us the task is to figure where
"absolute moral" systems really come from.  Ray hypothesized that they are
invented by would-be oppressors.  I modified that claim by explaining that
absolute moral systems can arise spontaneously.

T.O. Morrow                        --  twb3@midway.uchicago.edu
Law & Politics Editor:   EXTROPY   --  Journal of Transhumanist Thought
Associate Executive Director: ExI  --  The Extropy Institute

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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 92 16:28:04 PDT
From: uunet!autodesk.com!robertj (Young Rob Jellinghaus)
To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re:  Ethics

  From [...]

     From: twb3@midway.uchicago.edu (Tom Morrow)
     While I am very sympathetic with skeptical tone of Ray's comments, I think
     it bears pointing out that the reasons for "absolute morality" involve more
     than just conscious manipulation.  Often such moralities arise
     spontaneously, and are adopted by custom.  Though it encourages human

> [ This is not an absolute morality; an absolute morality would
>   be one imposed by GOD. ]

I think Tom's comment was indicating that such moralities often arise
spontaneously--memes for particular behaviors appear in a society's
meme pool--and then become adopted by custom.  Over time, parasitic
memes evolve and attach to the original morality memes; these para-
site memes are of the form "These moral memes are the True Correct
Ones, and you Must Follow Them."  These parasite memes do a very good
job of propagating themselves together with the original morality
memes.  Hence the multitude of fundamentalist creeds, all with their
own beliefs, and all convinced their beliefs are the only true ones.

Thus, an "absolute morality" is simply a socially constructed
morality, as per Tom, which has been parasitized with absolutist,
"fundamentalist" memes.

Rob Jellinghaus (robertj@Autodesk.COM)

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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 92 12:31:05 -0400
From: "Tihamer T. Toth-Fejel" <uunet!iti.org!ttf>
To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re:  Ethics

	   >Notions of "absolute morality" are just an
	   >attempt by one group of people to conciously codify what your
	   >arational choices should be.
	   >-Ray

	   I think it bears pointing out that the reasons for "absolute
	   morality" involve more than just conscious manipulation.
	   Often such moralities arise spontaneously, and are adopted
	   by custom.

	[ This is not an absolute morality; an absolute morality would
	  be one imposed by GOD. ]

I agree that "objective morality" is not subject to human invention
or intervenion.  But it is not necessarily imposed by GOD, as
believed by the traditional fundamentalists.
Objective morality is simply that morality which is not subjective.
My hypothesis is that objective morality is discernable from
empirical methods, as Robert Axelrod has done in "The Evolution
of Cooperation", where he also talks about mercy and altruism.

ttf@iti.org     (Tihamer T. Toth-Fejel)
Industrial Technology Institute, P.O. Box 1485, Ann Arbor, MI 48106
office: (313) 769-4248   fax: (313) 769-4064   home: (313) 662-4741
*----*----*----*Think of it as evolution in action*----*----*----*----*

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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 92 13:00:07 CDT
From: uunet!midway.uchicago.edu!twb3 (Tom Morrow)
To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re:  Ethics


>My hypothesis is that objective morality is discernable from
>empirical methods, as Robert Axelrod has done in "The Evolution
>of Cooperation", where he also talks about mercy and altruism.
>
>ttf@iti.org     (Tihamer T. Toth-Fejel)

I think you are either arguing for something other than absolute goals or
misinterpreting Axelrod.

It may be true that Axelrod (and game theory in general) has empirically
established the necessity of following certain strategies--IF you are
trying to survive in a particular sort of environment [i.e., one where 1)
scarce resources; 2) are sought by other beings able to make credible
threats; 3) who have conflicting ends].

You, however, have been arguing that we must accept certain goals as
absolute.  Axelrod proves nothing of the sort.

T.O. Morrow                        --  twb3@midway.uchicago.edu
Law & Politics Editor:   EXTROPY   --  Journal of Transhumanist Thought
Associate Executive Director: ExI  --  The Extropy Institute

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End of Hal's Extropians Digest Volume 92 Issue #0004
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