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Hal's Extropians Digest      Tue, 23 Jun 1992       Volume 92 : Issue   0014

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    Hal Finney
    Extropians Digest Moderator

Today's Topics:
	    Debate: Information and coercion (5 messages)

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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 92 22:46:39 MDT
From: [...]
To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re: What is a government?

> The original question from Richard Kennaway was whether
> ExI was acting like a government with respect to this mailing list.
>
> But mailing lists can't exert force, hence can't be instruments of
> coercion.

Yes, if people can be kicked off the list, then there is coercion.  One
could imagine where everyone is hooked into virtual reality simulators-
being denied the information source is the same as being thrown in
prison with no lights.  Not being able to post is equivalent to being
in a world but being unable to affect it (like a parapalegic with no
one around to help you)

Just for fun, I will push this idea a little further.  Looking at the
world, one can see that the only thing a person does during a life is
transmit information back and forth along their neurons.  Most of the
information going out defines muscle activity and thus effects the
environment.  The environmental effect then comes back in through the
ingoing information lines.

The degree to which the person can not control the information coming
in along their ingoing lines is the degree to which they can not control
their whole life.  Thus it appears that the ideal and perfect life would
be within a perfect virtual world- one could adjust the amount of control
depending on ones whim.  However, for those of us stuck in this barbaric
technological stage we wish to be able to vary the amount of control
through our crude methods.

Other individuals can control the information flow going in- such as
by killing you they eliminate it.  The concept of a government then
appears to be an informational directing structure- keeping others
from giving you information you do not wish to recieve (protection)
and keeping you from transmitting to others what they do not wish
to percieve (raping and torturing them for example).  Also the
government is concerned with the long term informational flow and providing
everyone with a minimal amount of control over incoming information (welfare
gives one the ability to live and choose)

Thus, the mailer list operator is only a government, and nothing else.

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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 92 23:40:52 PDT
From: uunet!xanadu.com!tribble (E. Dean Tribble)
To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: What is a government?

   From: [...]
   X-Original-To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
   Date: Mon, 22 Jun 92 22:46:39 MDT
   X-Extropian-Date: Remailed on June 23, 372 P.N.O. [04:46:56 UTC]
   Reply-To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu

   > The original question from Richard Kennaway was whether
   > ExI was acting like a government with respect to this mailing list.
   >
   > But mailing lists can't exert force, hence can't be instruments of
   > coercion.

   Yes, if people can be kicked off the list, then there is coercion.  One

Define coercion.  I define it as risk of bodily harm.  Therefore the
mailing list involves no coercion.  You must be defining it
differently, so please make clear your assumption.

   could imagine where everyone is hooked into virtual reality simulators-
   being denied the information source is the same as being thrown in
   prison with no lights.  Not being able to post is equivalent to being
   in a world but being unable to affect it (like a parapalegic with no
   one around to help you)

This sounds like the standard reasoning bug in which someone tries to
make their lack my responsibility (entitlements).  People don't have
rights to information, and they don't have rights to access private
things, except to the extent that they contract for it.  Contracts
typically have termination clauses and penalty clauses that retract
access if the participant doesn't live up to their end of the
contract.

dean

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Date: Tue, 23 Jun 92 11:13:28 PDT
From: uunet!ghsvax!hal (Hal Finney)
To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: What is a government?

[...] writes:

   Yes, if people can be kicked off the list, then there is coercion.  One
   could imagine where everyone is hooked into virtual reality simulators-
   being denied the information source is the same as being thrown in
   prison with no lights.  Not being able to post is equivalent to being
   in a world but being unable to affect it (like a parapalegic with no
   one around to help you)

The real analogy to coercion in this situation would be someone who
comes along and maliciously cuts off the communication channels for a
person.  Maybe a "hacker" has messed up the network routing tables to
cut someone off.

What would _not_ be coercion is for one person to voluntarily decide
to stop communicating with another.  Even though this affects the
"flow of information" to that other person, it is not coercive.  It is
analogous to a door-to-door salesman deciding not to visit my house
today.  Coercion would be if I was able to _force_ that person to send
to me, or to visit my house, even if he didn't want to.

   The concept of a government then appears to be an informational
   directing structure - keeping others from giving you information
   you do not wish to recieve (protection) and keeping you from
   transmitting to others what they do not wish to percieve (raping
   and torturing them for example).

I think this example stretches things too far.  Assault is more than a
matter of providing someone with information that they don't want.
This is tantamount to claiming that physical interactions are purely
informational in nature.  If this were the case, it would be literally
possible to assault someone over any form of information channel.  I
could send an ordinary email message to someone which would literally rape
and torture him.  I'm not talking about blueprints for a robot which
would attack him, I'm talking about a message which, simply by virtue
of reading it, would cause him to experience all the sensations of
being physically attacked.

This is clearly impossible and fails to recognize the reality of the
physical world.  [...] may have gotten too caught up in his work on
information theory and has fallen into the delusion that the map is
the reality. :-O

I do think that in the future our interactions will be more
informational in nature and less physical.  But we can't forget the
primacy of the physical world.  There is an old science fiction story
about people living in a virtual reality, having a pleasant, normal
life, while the world slips into an ice age and their city is crushed
by the oncoming glaciers.

Hal Finney
ghsvax!hal@uunet.uu.net				...!uunet!ghsvax!hal
Permission is granted to freely reproduce this message.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 92 14:21:34 MDT
From: [...]
To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re: What is a government?

>    Yes, if people can be kicked off the list, then there is coercion.  One
>    could imagine where everyone is hooked into virtual reality simulators-
>    being denied the information source is the same as being thrown in
>    prison with no lights.  Not being able to post is equivalent to being
>    in a world but being unable to affect it (like a parapalegic with no
>    one around to help you)

> The real analogy to coercion in this situation would be someone who
> comes along and maliciously cuts off the communication channels for a
> person.

True.  I would contend that everyone has the right to access some
minimal amount of information, and denying them this is coercion.  Whether
or not this list counts is another story.  But in light of the fact that
people join and drop out (enter and leave the country) and the list
management can kick people out it seems very much like a government.
Imagine I live on an island with friends, and we let some people on and
kick people off who are annoying or hurting us.  Is this a government?

>    The concept of a government then appears to be an informational
>    directing structure - keeping others from giving you information
>    you do not wish to recieve (protection) and keeping you from
>    transmitting to others what they do not wish to percieve (raping
>    and torturing them for example).

> I think this example stretches things too far.  Assault is more than a
> matter of providing someone with information that they don't want.

Yes it is.  The universe is only and solely a matter - energy exhange,
with information flowing about.  What else is there?

> This is tantamount to claiming that physical interactions are purely
> informational in nature.  If this were the case, it would be literally
> possible to assault someone over any form of information channel.

This WOULD be possible if the information was transduced appropriately.
As I said before, we are barbaric ape men and have not even accomplished
that small task.  But in the "physical" world as you like to call it
one can limit information inflow as well. (similar to not have the
appropriate transducers)  For instance, by putting a prisoner behind
glass you may see and talk to them but they may not harm you - informational
control.  By putting yourself in a certain society (under a certain
government) they will try to protect you from certain unwanted information.
They may even kick out those providing information they know you wouldn't
want to see.  Fortunately, in one government system they allow everyone
to at least SAY what they want to, even if no one listens.

> This is clearly impossible and fails to recognize the reality of the
> physical world.

Now I might wonder what physical world you live in.  Is it different then
mine?  It seems that you may be the one drifting from reality :)

> [...] may have gotten too caught up in his work on
> information theory

Perhaps :)  Actually, I developed my information theory as a CONSEQUENCE
of studying virtual reality and realizing its implications.

> I do think that in the future our interactions will be more
> informational in nature and less physical.  But we can't forget the
> primacy of the physical world.

We live in the world of society and interactions.  Look at all the postings
that solely focus on interpersonal interaction.  That is not physical
reality at all- it is social construction.  Yet we survive even by relegating
the physical world beneath our social endeavors.  Just keep the corner of
your eye open and you'll be okay.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 92 18:16:22 MDT
From: [...]
To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re: "rights"

>    True.  I would contend that everyone has the right to access some
>    minimal amount of information, and denying them this is coercion.

> [How do you justify these "rights"?  Where do they come from?]

They arise from the very definition of EXTROPY.  I defined this about 10
times in postings to this group, and about 20 times in postings all over
the network.  EXTROPY requires the individual to have the power of
choice.  Denied this, you have missed the boat.  If you don't like extropy,
then name this list "libertarians commisseration" or something else.

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End of Hal's Extropians Digest Volume 92 Issue #0014
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