🚀 go-pugleaf

[From Rick Marken (990502.1810)]

Bruce Abbott (990502.1740 EST)

> Simon clearly stated that the ant has purposes and goals

Many people have stated that organisms have purposes and goals
(or seem to). But they (like Simon) never explain what they are.
PCT explains what purposes and goals _are_ (reference signals
and reference states of controlled variables).

> your conclusion (that Simon didn't know that purposeful behavior
> is control) seems rather bizarre given that Simon seems to have
> known what sort of system is required in order for it to exhibit
> goal-seeking behavior.

Simon was not alone; many people  (Weiner, Ashby, et al) knew what
sort of system is required for goal-seeking behavior; they just
didn't know that this kind of behavior is the control of
perception. That's a big miss.

> What is interesting about Simon's hypothesis from our perspective
> is its suggestion that very complex behavior may be produced by
> relatively simple systems.

Aren't S-R systems simple , too? I think Simon's "hypothesis"
doesn't take us very far toward understanding what kind of simple
system he's talking about.

> As the Crowd demo shows, some apparently complicated and
> sophisticated behavior can be produced...by a _very_ simple
> system

Don't confuse real modeling (the CROWD program) with glib
assertions ("complex behavior from simple systems").

> I would think that you and Bill would welcome this bit of
> support from Simon

What support? We're trying to show that behavior is the control
of perception and that you can understand behavior only by
determining the perceptual variables that organisms control. Did
Simon say something like that in his quote? That would be cool!

> but you both seem too intent on discrediting him

I think Bill just patiently explained that Simon didn't say
anything at all -- let alone anything about control. That
doesn't "discredit" Simon; it just shows what we know and
what he doesn't (but should) know.

> I think that after reading Simon's quote, a reasonable person on
> encountering PCT would say "this is just the sort of thing Simon
> was talking about -- a relatively simple, goal-directed system
> that is capable of exhibiting complex behavior when environmental
> disturbances and constraints require it.  This might be worth
> looking into!

I think the conclusion would be just the opposite; it might be
worth it for Simon to look into PCT. I think Bill has tried
to contact many people (possibly including Simon) who, based on
what they have written, should have an interest in learning PCT.
I have done this myself. It doesn't take long to figure out
that these people are far more interested in explaining their
own (always S-R) theory than in learning about perceptual control.

Best

Rick
--------

Richard S. Marken                 Phone or Fax:  310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates          e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/