🚀 go-pugleaf

[From Rick Marken (990426.1220)]

Me:

> It is perfectly possible for people to understand control theory
> (as Bruce Abbott does) and not know that a closed negative
> feedback loops is organized around the control of perceptual
> variables. Control theory has been applied to behavior since 1945
> (at least). Many of these applications have been done by people
> who had a very good understanding of the mathematics of control
> theory. In none of those cases did the control theorist understand
> that a control system controls a perceptual representation, not
> an objective state of affairs; and s/he certainly didn't understand
> what this means in terms of understanding the behavior of the
> living systems to which their theory was being applied.

Bruce Gregory (990426.1412 EDT)

> Perhaps you can see why I interpreted your statement the way
> that I did. Then again, perhaps you can't.

You're right. I can't.

You managed to interpret what I said here to be: "the entire
profession of successful control engineers do not understand
control theory". How you get that meaning from what I said is
a mystery to me.

> If I were a control engineer I _might_ take umbrage at your
> remarks.

Why? If you were a control engineer who knew that control
systems control their perceptions I imagine you would be
quite pleased with my remarks.

> Perhaps your statements were directed only at control engineers
> with the audacity to attempt to apply their knowledge to
> understanding the behavior of living systems.

My statements were directed at _you_ because you seemed to
think that a person understands control theory simply because
s/he is classified as a control engineer. I said it to try to help
you overcome _your_ prejudice; your belief that people possess
a certain trait (understand control theory) simply because they
are a member of a certain group ("control engineers"). The point
I make in the quote above is that you should abandon that
prejudice; it's simply not true that a person can be assumed to
understand control theory just because they happen to be a
control engineer. This is proven by the fact that you can find
control engineers who don't understand control theory. That's
why I said:

> In none of those cases [of control engineers applying control
> theory to behavior] did the control theorist understand
> that a control system controls a perceptual representation, not
> an objective state of affairs

This doesn't say that all control engineers don't understand
control theory. It says that none of the control engineers who
did apply control theory to behavior (a small subset of the group
"control engineers") understood one important aspect of control
theory.

I don't know how I could have said this more clearly. Maybe
you have a suggestion. How could I have said "just because a
person is a control engineer doesn't mean that they understand
control theory" in a way that you would not interpret as "control
engineers don't understand control theory"?

Best

Rick
---
Richard S. Marken                 Phone or Fax:  310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates         e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken