Thread View: bit.sci.purposive-behavior
2 messages
2 total messages
Started by Bill Powers
Fri, 07 May 1999 00:00
coercion again
Author: Bill Powers
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 00:00
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 00:00
46 lines
3201 bytes
3201 bytes
[from Mary Powers 990507] From some comments lately on the net (which I'm not going to try to find right now), I get the feeling that some people believe that Bill (or PCT) asserts that coercion is really the only way that independent control systems interact with one another. I think Bill felt that it went without saying (his mistake: obviously some people need it said loudly and clearly and early and often) that there are indeed many kinds of human interactions involving love and altruism and cooperation and negotiation and this and that which do not involve coercion: the control of another's behavior by the actual, threatened, or implied use of force. What he said, or meant to say, or thought he said, and maybe this is just as bothersome to some people as what he didn't say (as described above), was that many interactions, benevolent as they may appear, done with the kindest of intentions and with the best possible consequences in mind, are actually, to some degree, coercive. All he wanted to do was to encourage awareness of the possible coerciveness of these sorts of actions. For one thing, it may seem to one person to be a small part of an interaction, completely overshadowed by the benevolence and good intentions, but that person cannot know how importantly it might loom in the other person's mind. For example, consider taking a chid to the dentist. Certainly there are many positive things about doing that, but there is also a coercive element. How many parents cancel the appointment because the child says "I don't wanna"? Bill simply proposed that it would be better to acknowledge that force will be used if necessary than pretend that it will not. Ditto with schools. Coercion may be minimal, but the students still are required to be there. The local truant officer may have less to do that the Maytag washer repair man, but he is still there to enforce the laws of the state, physically if necessary. And "misbehaving" children may end up being paddled, in some schools, or taken home (even in an RTP school), both of which are examples of the control of behavior by physical means. That potential exists in all interactions in the school - and that includes the relatively benevolent situations of limited choice, if the child chooses neither of the options the teacher indicates are the only acceptable ones. One hopes, of course, that one or another of the two choices will always be acceptable, but one reason for hoping that is because one knows that coercion lies beneath the surface, ready to be used. Mary P.
Re: coercion again
Author: Richard Marken
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 00:00
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 00:00
28 lines
1801 bytes
1801 bytes
[From Rick Marken (990507.1245)] Mary Powers (990507)-- > From some comments lately on the net (which I'm not going to > try to find right now), I get the feeling that some people > believe that Bill (or PCT) asserts that coercion is really > the only way that independent control systems interact with > one another. It was just Martin trying to make believe that my definition of coercion (as control of the behavior of a weaker by a much stronger control system-- which is also Bill's position, but, as usual, I'm the one who gets the heat since Bill is the reason everyone's here) says that all social interactions involve control of behavior. I think Bill and I (and now you) have made it abundantly clear that that's not the case. In fact, I think your post [Mary Powers (990507)] explains the PCT point of view on this topic (control of behavior in social interactions) rather beautifully (as usual). Thanks. Best Rick --- Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313 Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken
Thread Navigation
This is a paginated view of messages in the thread with full content displayed inline.
Messages are displayed in chronological order, with the original post highlighted in green.
Use pagination controls to navigate through all messages in large threads.
Back to All Threads