🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <nduehrCt8nGy.6BD@netcom.com> nduehr@netcom.com (Nathan N. Duehr) writes:

<snip of PK debate>

>men who hope to offer a much better solution than abortion.  They 

Really?  Are they finding adoptive parents and host mothers for the babies?
Just curious.

>proclaim that sex was meant for procreation and the strengthening of a 

I have had a hysterectomy.  Does this mean I am not to have sex with my 
husband, since we are not able to have children?

>godly marriage, but was never intended to be a selfish act of 
>sensuality.  They also proclaim that men in general need to follow 

Define "godly marriage", please, since I am not sure what you mean that to 
encompass.  Hnmmmm.  Could you also define the term "selfish act of 
sensuality"?  Last time I heard that sort of phrase, it was in reading about 
how Shakers denounced sex completely.  There are only about 3 or 4 of them 
left, aren't there?

>through on promises made to their families and to in general be more 
>responsible for the actions taken in relationships, including not 

Sounds like a good plan for either spouse.  Are women allowed to be 
responsible, too?

>allowing themselves to be tempted into sexual relations before there is 
>any marriage commitment, therefore there would be no need for measures as 
>extreme and deadly as abortion.

So if the couple is engaged, they will never need to have an abortion?  Or 
is it only a "sin" if you are not engaged?  Do you take into account the 
cases of "accidental" pregnany where the birth control in use failed?  I got 
pregnant more than once while on the Pill.  It happens.

>Men and women who have no self control have caused the entire abortion 
>debate to be blown completely out of proportion.  If both sexes would 
>learn to keep their pants on, then maybe we'd see what CHOICE really is.  

ROFL.  Do you really think that all the problems relating to abortion and 
adoption and unwanted children and the dozens of related topics will all go 
away if you close your eyes and hope people will "keep their pants on"?

>I'm extremely sick of people who say their right to choice is going to be 
>eroded by making abortion illegal.  Of course, they forget to mention 
>that they had a choice in the bedroom.  (Or was it the back of a car?)

I am asking for clarification because I want to be sure I understand you.  
Do you mean that you believe all instances of unplanned pregnancies are made 
by "loose women"?  That seems to be what you are stating.  Please clarify?

>I'm also not naieve enough to think that a blanket answer is the key, but 

Whew! :-)

>the Promise Keepers have a viable and ALREADY WORKING plan for their 
>lives regarding the issue of abortion.  Funny thing is, everyone is 

"FOR THEIR LIVES"  You said it beautifully!  Just doesn't happen to be the 
solution for lots of other lives.  Thank you for clarifying this! :-)

>bashing them for being radicals.  Since when is waiting to have sexual 
>relations with a person until they are legally commited to you so 

Since Adam and Eve, near as I can tell - did you note they were never 
married? <grin>

>radical?  Used to happen in this country all the time.  Sad that we think 
>it is so strange now.

>Sober up, America.  As evidenced by the continuous flaming on Usenet, and 
>the promiscuous sexual sensuality craze that this country is in, we no 

I thought that was the '50s, no '60s, no 70's....seems everyone thinks that 
was the last decade that they noticed.  It happens all the time!

>longer care about each other in this country.  All we care about is 

Sadly, in many cases this is very true.  Probably, because so many, many 
people want to tell us to live *our* lives exactly the way they live *theirs*
and that doesn't really seem right, does it?

>ourselves.  Is someone invading *MY* rights today?  Is someone 
>disagreeing with *ME*?  I use the examples of the Usenet and sexuality 
>just because they fit the topics in this message.  There are obviously 
>many more pieces of evidence to support this position.

Very true!  Lets see, if we refuse to pay England taxes because they are 
interfering with MY rights as a Colonist, and we dump British tea into the 
harbor because they disagree with us, and we refuse to follow their laws any 
more we can be....SELF RULING.  Gee, guess we have been leaning that way 
since we started this country!

>Volunteer in an area where you care and let others be free.  This is the 
>*United* States of America, isn't it?  I don't yell and scream on Usenet 
>every time a Bronco game snarls traffic in both directions on I-25, just 
>because it inconvieniences me.  Maybe I'm a football fan, maybe I'm not, 
>but I certainly didn't want that traffic jam that resulted.  Stuff 
>happens.  

Very true!  You are exceptionally perceptive to see that.  Good for you.

>My point is this:  It sure is easy to stir up hate and discontent.  ANYONE
>can do that.  Peacemakers are few and far between these days.  My hope is
>to be a peacemaker, as *most* of the Promise Keepers hope to do also. 

>"Judge every man by the fruit he produces."  Right?

Bingo!

have a great day!!

Satin
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   "Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo."              H. G. Wells
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