🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <biggus-1806960243480001@tele-anx0228.colorado.edu>, Jeff wrote:
>In response to some other comments:  (random points)
>
>>>   Reason #4 equally disgusts me. "Wrong crowd"? What the hell kind of a
>>>   parent spies on their kids. 
>>
>>Gee.  You're right.  Let 'em get hit on by druggies, seduced by anyone, 
>>"taught" everything without a single concern.  (Okay, true spying is insane).

>Yes, I'm talking about "true" spying here. The sentence seems to smack of
>a naive parent, no? Being "hit on by druggies, seduce by anyone..." will
>happen. 

Fatalism is not a "solution."  It is the 100% reliable weather forecast:
	Rain will happen.  Tornadoes will occur.  Folks will get wet or die.

After some point.  SH*T happens is not a management or parenting principle.
Folks care.  Vigilantes aren't concerned about statistical percentages of 
crime.

> First fact of parenting. The question is: how will they respond.

You wanna know how?  Tough luck.  Saying "Figger it out yourself" then 
"I wonder what will happen" is like pairing with a Co-Pilot who sat on
the manual for five years.

>The problems of their life will not be caused by someone saying, "Hey,
>want some heroin?" The symptoms of their problems will be seen in their
>seeking out the irresponsible use of these things.

There is no "irresponsible" choiceness to it.  That's a fun word but the 
whole problem is that it KILLs.  There is no "responsible" way to get beat
up by drug pushers.  There is no responsible way to get high once and get
AIDS.  Its just a fun word that means nothing but "The right and good
half of X".  There might be *NO* right answer and *NO* good and kind
way out of something.  No happyland guarantees exist in freedom.  (I will
not believe myself powerful enough to produce any.. but I won't trust it
as some sort of playground equipment).

Where's the guarantee that there is a responsible side to anything your kid 
meets?  What about your own life?  Others?

And they wonder why kids get high and pregnant.  "Just try it" is sacramental!

>Now, I realize that you're probably thinking of when kids get themselves
>into situations that they can't seem to get themselves out of. This is a
>problem for any parent. But you're not going to get them out by spying on
>them.

I cannot condone spying.  My suspicion is that spying and or military school
is therapy for the parent far far far far more than anything for the child.  It
objectifies the child and makes him/her into a self-serving high.

Leaving the kid "To do As They Will" is just as objectifying.  How can you 
really love what you have no *active* concern for?  Talking and talking and
being Open and being Open impresses and states nothing.  Its like being a 
C-SPAN station.  Communication has to be *active* to be loving or to even 
prove someone with a pulse exists!!  Many parents actively suppress that!!

Its called child neglect.

>>We have as much control over them (after a point...) as they do over us.

>True. That's exactly why one should establish a _strong_ channel of trust
>between you and your kids. 

True.  What goes in the channel?  What is it for?  Parental emulation?
I cannot emulate a parent who never discusses their values and/or one who
I can emulate only after college and being married with kids.

If the parent produces nothing for a kid to do or be that makes sense... 
the strong channel is empty.  Useless.. but agreeably polite.

> They are people, who think, feel and, to a
>point, run their own lives. They don't live their life for their parents,
>nor should they. 

They live their life for themselves and for the Greater Good (fill in version).
Parents have to do same.  If they don't .. then you get Gen. X (my gen): 
  "I am in control but no one cares if I live or die.  So I won't care either."

The self-preservation morality value ("Look Out for Number One") is
actually quite distinct from common sense.  It is not innate to just
"take care of number one."  Thus... a child's life is not his/her
parents', but it is not anyone's nor for anyone's purpose at all if we
wander up and say "Here take it.  Its your life.  You know what to do!"

>In the teenage years especially, it is so important to
>have a trust with your parents. They may use it to get away with stuff
>behind your back, but that's going to happen no matter what. 

Yes.  The principle of "I'll be found out.. so be obedient" is gone after age 
10-11.  Still one must note, some marriages thrive on the principle of
discovery and vengeance...  making them akin to a prisoner and warden.
As regards children No truly stable person can wander away from such an 
environment and suddenly be Okay.

Neither can one believe no one gave a crap plus or minus, "cuz everything's
gonna happen."  There are so many crises possible.. why declare *ALL* of them
as equally likely?  That's simply known as apathy!  Its like being a neighbor!
Concern and Love *SHOW* themselves.  They don't die out for worship at the 
sacrificial altar of Freedom First.

Lots of folks die at that Altar.. by the way.  I knew one.. and he died of the
freedom to be lonely.

>The question
>is exactly what kind of people are they turning into when you are
>completely out of reach of what they're up to.

Yes.  Spying is pathetic and can do nothing.  Rebellion is stemmed only by
the fear of the act itself.. not of the parent... after a point.

>>> They may end up being the positive influence
>>>   in that circle of friends.
>>
>>They may also push him off a bridge, or get her pregnant.  (Oh yeh... not 
>>YOUR kid.. never never).

>This is sort of a bizarre comment. If my kid pushes someone off a bridge,
>the problems lie very very deep. 

Rad the english: "They" push "Him" off a bridge.  I.e. injured by the Group
that He (in this case) is in.  A dead or paralyzed child was free.. but is not
so any more.  The existance of a "circle of friends" is no guarantor of 
anything in the least.

>They are not a function of who they're
>hanging out with. 

They sure as hecking cripes are!  Where did you grow up?  Alaska?  There are
absolute gaps in who kids are allowed to be.  What groups exist?  How are they
"maintained" and how are they "restricted."  The state space of social life is
*NOT* a full one.  Your kid will need to adapt *INTO* something.   How can a
15 year old boy or girl truly emulate a parent they barely see who is 
approxmately 20 to 30 years older than they are?  No basis exists for most
of their next 10 years!   None!  The only true examples are either spoken of,
impressed as rules and values, or exemplified by their peers and TV.

Why oh WHY does everyone belives that a kid is a pre-written play which
needs merely a stage!

Why doesn't anyone ask the kids if they're sure what they are or need, yet?
They'll say what they commonly do: I don't know yet, but I like X Y and Z kinda.
They'll also say the rest of it: Joe X and Jane Q are really cool at A B and C.
I wanna be like them!

>That's crazy talk, and denial talk. 

Ditto.  To a frightfully provable degree, Ditto.

You haven't hung out with druggies or machismo-cults or party-nuts or
(female version) slut-a-thons or popularity-battalions at all?  They are
brutal.  What drives an adolescent to ignore all these?  What huge
force?  Parental Guidance?  You just said that didn't really factor in:
It'll just happen... remember?

>Getting someone
>pregnant - that's more reasonable. Kids sex each other down, it's going to
>happen. 

So do Tornadoes.  You wanna bank an entire 70 year lifespan on mistakes that 
crucify their hopes?  People are precious and their lives are too.. for 
themselves or for a Higher Power.  Live in fear that you can be called to
admit how little or how much guidance you gave.. and that it was wrong to do so.

People can blunder off real live cliffs if they get too close and toy around.  
They "self-actualized" properly and it left them unable to actualize
anything more ... forever.  This is *NOT* unlike most people's lives, now!

The issue is not if freedom exists.  It is pathetic to deny that.  It is a 
matter of daring to say "Freedom can Kill!" or "Freedom is Potently Deadly and
possibly Tame-able"

>Does one raise a responsible child? is the real question. Yes, it
>IS possible. Kids are _strongly_ affected by how their parents act, and by
>how they are raised.

Bingo.  Raising children is not an obvseration and openness sport.  Its also
not a remote-control toy.  Between the two is "discipling" and "tutoring" and
"exemplifying" and "dignifying" a child for their own glory in the future, and
not for a parent's own glory.

>-Jeff

>-- 
>Jeff biggus@colorado.edu
>http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~biggus

>      "But where danger is, grows
>       The saving power also."

I still disagree that anything is so believable about this .sig.  
No guarantees that said Power is available for real use.. even in this .sig.