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tjn wrote:

Tang: <<Thing-events (like us) come and go, but Dependent Arisal does not come
and go: the Buddha says that it has stood (by which he means that it does not
move, does not change). Thing-events (like us) occur, but Dependent Arisal
does not occur: it is not something that can occur. The laws of physics govern
the physical universe, and thing-events occur (like us) according to them, as
instances of them, but they (the laws) themselves do not occur. They are not
instances of themselves.>>

Toshu: <<it is quite possible that a dependent arising that is self causing
will be necessary in order to allow sense to be made of physics say. the rules
can change. we know that in this universe there is a sense in which the field
equations for various fields depend upon cosmologically evolving paramters.
thus for a physicist self-referential dependent arising would likely be a bit
congenial.>>

In present-day theorizing, say, in physics, biology, there is a tendency to
regard the "emergence" (a technical term) of a new stable state as breaking
old laws and instituting new laws. For example, from the inorganic, the
organic "emerges", and new laws that didn't exist before ushered themselves in
to regulate the new phenomenon, then from the organic, low forms of life
emerges, from there, higher forms of life, etc. The anthropic principle is
based on such reasoning.

Such thinking confuses the content with the structure that governs that
content. There is no obstacle to the hypothesis that all such laws (the
structure) preexisted to the content that they were to govern. The anthropic
principle works fine in this option, too.

The Buddha says: "the dependent arising has not been made by me (na maya
pratitya-samutpadah krto), has not been made by others (napy anyaih). Whether
the Tathagata-s were to arise or Tathagata-s were not to arise (utpadad va
tathagatanam anutpadad va), this nature of things has remained (sthita eveyam
dharmata, this legality has stood), the modality (dhatu) for the standing of
things (dharma-sthitaye)." SA, 299, 85b, Nidana-samyukta, 164-165, D� zh� d�
l�n, T, 25, 1509, 298a11-20.

Such Dependent Arisal can "stand" right through all the evolution of the
universe, and deploy its various clusters of laws to govern the universe in
its cosmologically evolving parameters (the sentence is a tautology). It
vertically governs the various (and categorically different) phases, like the
inorganic, the organic, etc., which come and go, while it does not come and
go. They horizontally cause each other, leading from one to the other, while
it does not cause them but governs them.

The rules do not change, but different sets of rules govern different sets of
states, according as the states change and solitcit new sets of rules to
govern them (actually, the rules set the field for new states to emerge, and
then govern them).

Tang Huyen