🚀 go-pugleaf

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Neuendorffer wrote:
> 
> >> I wrote:
> >>
> >>>>  Writing Shake-speare was a ridiculously improbable task for the
> >>>> Stratford man.
> >>
> >> Alvin Sidwick wrote:
> >> >
> >>> Why?  This is the first question any of you must answer before your
> >>> "theories" become anything more than crackpot nonsense.  So far, I've
> >>> yet to see any reason why Shakespeare couldn't have written Shakespeare.
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>          Mark Twain's (1909) _Is Shakespeare Dead?_
> >>           ---------------------------------------
> >>          [ http://www.lm.com/~joseph/shake3.html ]
> >>
> >> [William Shakespaere] was born on the 23d of April, 1564.
> >>
> >> Of good farmer-class parents who could not read, could not write,
> >> could not sign their names.
> >
> >This was not a sign of stupidity; literacy was not terribly common in
> >16th-century England.  And it cannot be taken as any indication of
> >ignorance on Shakespeare's part; even in the 20th century, the
> >existentialist Albert Camus was born into a decidedly un-literary
> >family.
> 
>    Twain acknowledges that they were GOOD farmer-class parents.
>       What more do you need to produce a Shake-speare?

Apparently, nothing.  
> 
> >"Unlike most of his contemporaries on the French literary scene (many of
> >whom were products of the famous Parisian grandes ecoles), Camus'
> >background was decidedly anti-intellectual. There was not a book or
> >magazine to be found in his household, and Grandmother Sintes ruled with
> >an iron fist, insisting that Camus and his brother do an obligatory
> >minimum of schooling and then go out to work. It was probably only at
> >the insistence of one of his primary school teachers, Louis Germain,
> >that Albert Camus the writer was plucked from the jaws of obscurity."
> 
>  Too bad there was no good teacher there to pluck Shakspere's children &
> grandchild from "the jaws of obscurity."

Well, we can't ALL be great authors; besides, as I have pointed out
before, they were women and as such were not educated.
> 
> >And Twain's marvelous gift for damning with faint praise is evident in
> >his description of Shakespeare's parents.  Though they may have been
> >illiterate, Shakespeare's father was not a farmer but a glover and an
> >alderman -- a respected figure in Stratford society.
> 
>                   A high bailiff even!
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Volker wrote:
> 
> >   JS's highest office was "high bailiff".  If Shakspere
> > mentions "alderman" in homage to dad, then certainly also
> >"high bailiff"?  In fact, there is only one "bailiff"--
> >
> >   AUTOLYCUS. Vices, I would say, sir. I know this man well; he hath
> >     been since an ape-bearer; then a process-server, a bailiff; then
> >     he compass'd a motion of the Prodigal Son, and married a tinker's
> >     wife within a mile where my land and living lies; and, having
> >     flown over many knavish professions, he settled only in rogue.
> >     Some call him Autolycus.  [--WT]
> >
> >-- an absolutely crushingly negative portrayal of "bailiff", dad.

And?  Who says Shakespeare had to like his father, or bailiffs in
general?
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------
>              http://www.saintjohn.org/priory.htm
> 
>  <<By 1567 the only English knights remaining on Malta were the titular
>  Grand Prior Richard Shelley (who was an active participant in several
>  plots against Elizabeth) and Oliver Starkey (commander of
>  Quenington), later titular BAILIFF of Egle (from 1569).>>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

That's nice, you've proven there were bailiffs in those times.  I'm sure
all those scholars who constantly asked themselves, "Were there bailiffs
or weren't there?" will all line up to thank you.
Oh, they already knew that?
Then what the hell is your point?

> >> At Stratford, a small back settlement which in that day was shabby and
> >> unclean, and densely illiterate.
> >
> >Not strictly true.  Stratford was a British town much like many other
> >British towns of the time; certainly shabby, unclean, and illiterate by
> >Twain's standards (which I believe Twain is judging it by) or our
> >standards, but a fairly normal place by Elizabethan standards.
> 
>    Yes, a fairly normal place to raise a shabby, unclean, and illiterate
> family
> while simultaneously placing immortal words in the mouths of numerous
> Elizabethan nobility.

Again, it was a standard middle-class British household.  Poverty is all
relative, and the schools of Shakespeare's time were more than enough to
give a diligent boy with a gift for the language (as young Wm.
Shakespeare must have been) a sufficient education to write the plays. 
Eloquence is not, and cannot be, taught.  Sentence structure is taught;
verse forms can be taught; they _were_, in fact, taught to all children
who attended the Stratford school.  But Shakespeare's marvelous skill in
writing would have to be born in him, and would therefore pay no regard
for rank or location.  
> 
> >> Of the nineteen important men charged
> >> with the government of the town, thirteen had to "make their mark" in
> >> attesting important documents, because they could not write their names.
> >
> >This was about average for a town of that time.  Anyway, nobody denies
> >that Shakespeare COULD sign his name; we have several of his
> >signatures.  So the point is moot.
> 
>     Oh, well, he could sign his own name! 'nuf said.
>
If Shakespeare COULD sign his name, then what is the point of saying
that these other guys could not?  Twain is casting aspersions on
Shakespeare with the skill of an accomplished rhetorician, but they
don't really reflect anything. 
 
> >> Of the first eighteen years of his life NOTHING is known. They are a
> >> blank.
> >>
> >Why should there be?  Is there extensive documentation of most children
> >of that time?  The fact is, nobody knew in advance that Shakespeare was
> >going to be a writer, and so they didn't bother to write out detailed
> >biographies...
> 
>  The question is: Did anyone bother to tell Shakspere that he was going
>  to be a writer? And did he have a choice in the matter?

I don't understand what you mean.  He didn't "know" he was going to be a
writer either.  He may have wished; he may have hoped.  But wishes and
hopes are nothing to painstakingly document.
> 
> >> On the 27th of November (1582) William Shakespeare took out a license to
> >> marry Anne Whateley.
> >>
> >> Next day William Shakespeare took out a license to marry Anne Hathaway.
> >> She was eight years his senior.
> >>
> >> William Shakespeare married Anne Hathaway. In a hurry. By grace of a
> >> reluctantly granted dispensation there was but one publication of the
> >> banns.
> >>
> >> Within six months the first child was born.
> >
> >And?  Surely Twain isn't implying that, because Shakespeare had
> >apparently conceived a child with this Hathaway out of marriage,
> > that means anything.
> 
>              You men are all alike!
>
Perhaps they are... But this was 16th-century England, and lacking
either reliable birth-control methods or sophisticated forms of
entertainment, I imagine this sort of thing happened quite a bit.  It is
completely tangential and irrelevant to the point.  
 
> >> About two (blank) years followed, during which period NOTHING AT ALL
> >> HAPPENED TO SHAKESPEARE, so far as anybody knows.
> >
> >Again, these people did not keep detailed daily records and diaries, and
> >if they did, they certainly wouldn't have survived.
> 
>     And if they did it would just be a string of X's (or perhaps j's).
>
All the more reason for there to be no record of Shakespeare during that
time, then...

 
> >  For God's sake, we are missing PLAYS written at about that time!
> 
>              Don't look at me; I don't have them.

Stop trying to be funny; if you think you'll evade the question with
jokes, you are sadly mistaken.
> 
> >> Then came twins--1585. February.
> >>
> >> Two blank years follow.
> >
> >Ditto.
> >>
> >> Then--1587--he makes a ten-year visit to London, leaving the family
> >> behind.
> >>
> >> Five blank years follow. During this period NOTHING HAPPENED TO HIM, as
> >> far as anybody actually knows.
> >>
> >Again,it would be nice to believe that there were people following the
> >young Shakespeare around, by why should they?  They didn't know he was
> >going to be the greatest playwright in the English language.  Is the
> >lack of information about Shakespeare unusual?  No; it is about what one
> >would expect of a person of no high social standing or great wealth, in
> >Shakespeare's time.
> 
>  True, but  it is about what one would expect of a person who was going
> to be
> the greatest playwright in the English language.

What, do you think he had a halo or something?  Is there some kind of
birthmark shared by all great authors?  Up until then, he was simply
Billy Shakespeare, the glover's son... perhaps a bit more imaginative
than his friends, perhaps a bit more given to wordplay, but there was no
reason for anybody to pay special attention to him.
Anyway, no matter what happened to him later, I think nobody is trying
to say that the man did not exist...
> 
> >> Then--1592--there is mention of him as an actor.
> >>
> >> Next year--1593--his name appears in the official list of players.
> >>
> >> Next year--1594--he played before the queen. A detail of no consequence:
> >> other obscurities did it every year of the forty- five of her reign. And
> >> remained obscure.
> >
> >But none of them were Shakespeare.
> 
>       Gee. . . that fact hadn't occurred to me.

I can almost believe that.
 
> >> Three pretty full years follow. Full of play-acting.
> 
> >And playwriting, if we are to believe (and why wouldn't we believe
> >them?) Robert Greene in 1592 and Francis Meres in 1598.
> 
>                    Why indeed?
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bailiff , n. [OF. baillif, F. bailli, custodia? magistrate,
>  fr. L. bajulus porter.] (Mining) An officer who directs and
>  lays out the MERES or boundaries for the workmen;
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Robert Greene dies in the house of a SHOEMAKER named Isam (1592)
>  SHOEMAKER's son Kit Marlowe struck down on the 1001st Islamic Ramadan
> (1593)
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  <<Warwick, 1577: Thomas Shaxper, SHOEMAKER, made his will, naming sons
>  William, Thomas, and John, and a daughter Joan (who died that year).
> 
>      William Shaxper drowned in the Avon river on June 6, 1579.
> 
>   His brother Thomas became a butcher and eventually went on to marry
>         the daughter of the mayor of Coventry, and in 1610
>    Thomas' son John was apprenticed in London to William Jaggard,
>  the printer who would eventually print the Shakespeare First Folio.>>
>                                         courtesy - David Kathman.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
What are you trying to suggest?  A plot by shoemakers to take over the
world?  All this proves is that, damn it, Elizabethans needed shoes, and
therefore needed shoemakers!
 
> >  His plays were published in quarto form.
> >  Twain's savage style is effective, but he seems
> > not to care much about the facts; perhaps he is not aware of them?
> 
>                 Perhaps.
>
I should think almost definitely.
 
> >> Then* In 1597 he bought New Place, Stratford.
> >>
> >> Thirteen or fourteen busy years follow; years in which he accumulated
> >> money, and also reputation as actor and manager. Meantime his name,
> >> liberally and variously spelt, had become associated with a number of
> >> great plays and poems, as (ostensibly) author of the same.
> >
> >When somebody's name is associated with plays and poems, there is almost
> >always a definite explanation.  I think we all know what it is.
> 
>         I believe that we do.

I believe your sarcasm is beginning to wear on me.  I bothered speaking
with you in the first place because I was under the impression that,
though you were misguided, you possessed the wisdom to fairly consider
your own beliefs and the integrity to admit that you might, at times, be
wrong.  Don't make me re-appraise...
> 
> >  And as
> >for the variable spellings, everybody's name was variously spelled in
> >those days.
> 
>      Then how can anyone be sure of who was who?

I think anybody could tell that, of "Shakspere", "Shaxpur", "Wm.
Shakspr", "Ben Jonson", and "Shakespeare", two different men are being
described, and identify which one is which.  How do we, today, tell
"Erik Nielsen" from "Carl Nielsen," "A.C. Nielsen", "Leslie Nielsen", or
in fact "Ozzie and Harriet Nelson"?  By first names and context.   
> 
> >> Some of these, in these years and later, were pirated, but he made no
> >> protest.
> >>
> >How do we know whether or not he protested?  What was he going to do?
> 
>         Sue. He knew how to sue didn't he?

The Elizabethan legal system was not exactly analogous to our own...
> 
> >Twain is, again, assuming a feature present in his time but not in
> >Shakespeare's: a copyright system.
> 
>   At the very least he could publish
>          & sell autograph copies of the poetry himself.
> 
>     Didn't he have a friend in the publishing business?

Yes, and eventually authorized copies WERE sold.
> 
> >> Then--1610-11--he returned to Stratford and settled down for good and
> >> all, and busied himself in lending money, trading in tithes, trading in
> >> land and houses; shirking a debt of
> >> forty-one shillings, borrowed by his wife during his long desertion of
> >> his family; suing debtors for shillings and coppers; being sued himself
> >> for shillings and coppers; and acting as confederate to a neighbor who
> >> tried to rob the town of its rights in a certain common, and did not
> >> succeed.
> >>
> >And?  Everybody must engage in business.  Even Plato wrote in his
> >REPUBLIC of a "gift for wage-earning" separate from other skills; if
> >Shakespeare chose to exercise this gift in order to become more wealthy,
> >who can blame him?
> 
>                 Mark Twain.

Well, obviously, but he was just a bitter old man by that point.  Have
you read much of his later work?  Do you believe ALL of what he says? 
There's some damn-near-indefensible stuff...
> 
> >> He lived five or six years--till 1616--in the joy of these elevated
> >> pursuits.
> >
> >More Twain, less argument.
> >
> >Then he made a will, and signed each of its three pages with
> >> his name.
> >
> >Aha!  So even Twain admits he was literate!  This sort of throws the
> >first part of the essay out the window...
> 
>     Twain never said he couldn't scratch out his own name.

Then why does he go on and on about the illiteracy of many of the
residents of Stratford?
> 
> >> A thoroughgoing business man's will. It named in minute detail every
> >> item of property he owned in the world--houses, lands, sword,
> >> silver-gilt bowl, and so on--all the way down to his "second-best bed"
> >> and its furniture.
> >>
> >> It carefully and calculatingly distributed his riches among the members
> >> of his family, overlooking no individual of it. Not even his wife: the
> >> wife he had been enabled to marry in a hurry by urgent grace of a
> >> special dispensation before he was nineteen; the wife whom he had left
> >> husbandless so many years; the wife who had had to borrow forty-one
> >> shillings in her need, and which the lender was never able to collect of
> >> the prosperous husband, but died at last with the money still lacking.
> >
> >Of course, we remember that he was forced to marry her...
> 
>     Was he forced to come home from London to her?

He was old.  He retired.  I have always imagined he lived at Stratford
for parts of the year anyway. 
> 
> >> No, even this wife was remembered in Shakespeare's will.
> >>
> >> He left her that "second-best bed."
> >>
> >> And NOT ANOTHER THING; not even a penny to bless her lucky widowhood
> >> with.
> >
> >It was assumed in that time that when a man died, his children were
> >responsible for looking after his widow.  This was so common a provision
> >that there was no need to write it into the will.  The "second-best bed"
> >clause was probably a note implying that Anne liked that particular bed,
> >and it must not be given elsewhere.
> 
>              Probably.

Yes, probably.  Almost definitely.  Unless it was some sort of ribald
inside joke intended for Anne.  (She _was_ his wife, and it _was_ a bed,
after all.)
> 
> >> It was eminently and conspicuously a business man's will, not a poet's.
> >>
> >> It mentioned NOT A SINGLE BOOK.
> >>
> >> Books were much more precious than swords and silver-gilt bowls and
> >> second-best beds in those days, and when a
> >> departing person owned one he gave it a high place in his will.
> >
> >He left "The house with the appurtenances in Stratford where she
> >dwelleth" to his daughter Judith (Hall).
> 
>                           Susanna Hall.
> 
>             Judith Quiney got the silver bowl.

Actually, he leaves this house (not New Place) to his sister; one should
never try to read misspelled Elizabethan prose shortly after waking up.
> 
> >  Later, he gives "all the rest
> >of my goods, chattels, leases, plate, jewels, and household stuff
> >whatsoever" (discounting the various awards previously given in the
> >will) to Judith's husband, his son-in-law, John Hall.  Those
> >"appurtenances" most likely included books, as we know Hall was a doctor
> >and a literate man.
> 
>         Yes, but Judith's husband Quiney wasn't.

Sorry.  He gives New Place and the goods and chattels, etc. to Susanna
and John Hall.  Again, a bit of confusion caused by my half-awake
state...
> 
>   You don't seem to care much about the facts;
>          perhaps you is not aware of them?

I am sorry for making these blunders, though they pale beside Twain's...
> 
> >> The will mentioned NOT A PLAY, NOT A POEM, NOT AN UNFINISHED LITERARY
> >> WORK, NOT A SCRAP OF MANUSCRIPT OF ANY KIND.
> >
> >Why should it?  Remember, no copyright laws...
> 
>            Oh, well, if there were NO copyright laws...

Actually, I don't know whether there were copyright laws.  But if there
were, they weren't enforced.
> 
> >> Many poets have died poor, but this is the only one in history that has
> >> died THIS poor; the others all left literary remains behind. Also a
> >> book. Maybe two.
> >
> >Are you aware of the wills of any other authors who died at this time?
> >I can certainly tell you, Twain wasn't.
> 
>        Your point being?

That maybe all the other playwrights' wills looked about the same.  In
fact, I would be surprised if they didn't.
> 
> >> If Shakespeare had owned a dog--but we not go into that: we know he
> >> would have mentioned it in his will. If a good dog, Susanna would have
> >> got it; if an inferior one his wife would have got a downer interest in
> >> it. I wish he had had a dog, just so we could see how painstakingly he
> >> would have divided that dog among the family, in his careful business
> >> way.
> >
> >This is not evidence, but comedy.  Twain was good at comedy.
> 
>      You wouldn't think it funny if you were named Dogbrain.

I'm not, so what's your point?
> 
> >> He signed the will in three places.
> >>
> >> In earlier years he signed two other official documents.
> >>
> >> These five signatures still exist.
> >>
> >> There are NO OTHER SPECIMENS OF HIS PENMANSHIP IN EXISTENCE. Not a line.
> >>
> >Well, there is the play "Sir Thomas More", portions of which may have
> >been written in Shakespeare's hand, and we have found other signatures
> >since then.  But the point is really moot, because we do not have the
> >original manuscripts of most (almost all) Elizabethan plays.
> 
>          And probably for much the same reasons.

That one manuscript over 400 years is not likely to survive?
> 
> >> Was he prejudiced against the art? His granddaughter, whom he loved, was
> >> eight years old when he died, yet she had had no teaching, he left no
> >> provision for her education, although he was rich, and in her mature
> >> womanhood she couldn't write and couldn't tell her husband's manuscript
> >> from anybody else's--she thought it was Shakespeare's.
> >
> >Women were not educated at that time.  It simply did not happen.
> 
>    Far be it for Shakspere to act any differently than his neighbors.

Now, really... Though Shakespeare may have been the best of humanity (at
least in playwriting) you cannot expect him to be OUTSIDE of
humanity...  after all, you are familiar withn the portrayal of Joan of
Arc in Henry VI part 1?  (I thought not.) 
> 
> >> When Shakespeare died in Stratford, IT WAS NOT AN EVENT. It made no more
> >> stir in England than the death of any other forgotten theater-actor
> >> would have made.
> >
> >Why should it have?
> 
>      It shouldn't have been.

So what if he died?  He was out of society and retired anyway, and he
was not abnormally young to die.
> 
> >> Nobody came down from London;
> >
> >A logistical near-impossibility in the London of that time.
> 
>     Why? I'm sure Mrs. Davenant would have been happy to accomodate
> London
> friends of the playwright.

But to get news to London, have the playwrights suspend their lives, get
everything arranged, return to Stratford in approximately three days? 
Somehow I doubt it.  And no, they could _not_ have waited, not with a
dead body and no advanced preserving techniques.
> 
> >> there were no lamenting poems, no eulogies, no national
> >> tears--there was merely silence, and nothing more.
> >
> >Which is fairly understandable, given that Shakespeare did not assume
> >the great reputation he now has until later.
> 
>  Then why did people bother sticking his name on the published works?
>  (Not to mention other works.)  There was no copyright then, you know.

Why are ALL books named in this manner?  Think about the volume of
poetry, "Willobie his Avisa".  Did Willobie, too, have a great
reputation?  Or was it perhaps that friends of Willobie's might see the
name, curious readers might learn who the author was and buy his other
books, and Willobie would be happy.  
> 
> >  The First Folio did not do
> >it; the first turning point in Shakespeare's legacy came in the early
> >1660's, when William Davenant put many of his plays on the stage.  Ben
> >Jonson was better-respected at that time.  And as for "national tears"
> >-- name a television writer -- a person who writes television programs.
> >Do you know much about any television writer?  Would it be national news
> >if one died?
> 
>           Rod Serling?  Paddy Chayefsky?

But you know Rod Serling mainly as a producer, and Chayefsky has written
books, directed movies, etc.  
> 
> >> A striking contrast with what happened when Ben Jonson, and
> >> Francis Bacon, and Spenser, and Raleigh, and the other distinguished
> >> literary folk of Shakespeare's time passed from life!
> >
> >Jonson died 20 years later, when playwrights were better-respected;
> 
>    Better-respected by whom?  The Cromwellian Puritans?

1637, not 1657.
> 
> >> No praiseful voice
> >> was lifted for the lost Bard of Avon; even Ben Jonson waited seven years
> >> before he lifted his.
> >>
> >Not strictly true, and not unusual; furthermore, how do we know, when so
> >many manuscripts of that time have been lost?
> 
>     How do we know the Stratford man wrote the works with so little
> evidence for
> it verses so much against.

There is none "against"; and there is about as much for as there is for
any other playwright of the time.
> 
> >> SO FAR AS ANYBODY ACTUALLY KNOWS AND CAN PROVE, Shakespeare of
> >> Stratford-on-Avon never wrote a play in his life.
> >>
> >Except all those plays which were performed as his, and published as
> >his, and everybody seems to have thought of them as his.
> 
>      Everybody? The Stratford folks? Edward Alleyn? Samuel Pepys?

Yes, all of them.
> 
> >  How far must these things be "proven"?

I note you neglected to answer this question.
> >
> >> SO FAR AS ANY ONE KNOWS, HE RECEIVED ONLY ONE LETTER DURING HIS LIFE.
> >>
> >One letter which has survived.
> 
>    SO FAR AS ANY ONE KNOWS it is a dead letter.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> David Kathmann wrote:
> 
> > the only surviving letter to Shakespeare survived -- by freak
> > chance in the Stratford town archive when Richard Quiney was
> > murdered in office as BAILIFF.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> > Do you save all the letters written to you, even now?
> 
>    I have a postcard from Charles Ogburn Jr., does that count?

SO FAR AS ANYONE KNOWS, NEUENDORFFER RECEIVED ONLY ONE LETTER DURING HIS
LIFE, and it wasn't even a proper letter but a damned postcard, and it
hasn't survived for 400 years, now has it?
> 
> >  How about when you die?  Will all your correspondence go
> >into a drawer, to be retrieved at will?  Somehow, I remember losing
> >several letters; "SO FAR AS ANYONE KNOWS," I cannot have received any
> >more than 5 or 6 of them.
> 
>    I'm sorry that you are not more popular, Alvin.

So am I.
> 
> > And this is while I am still alive.  Nobody
> >knew that the letters and biography of Shakespeare would be so valuable
> >400 years later.
> 
>    His literate son-in-law should have been interested.
>    His friends Jonson & Drayton should have been interested.
>    Antiquarians like Aubrey should have been interested.
>    Reverend James Wilmot was certainly interested:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Caius Marcus wrote:
> 
> <<The first outright denial of Shakespeare's authorship was made by the
> Reverend James Wilmot (1726-sometime after 1805).  He became rector of
> Barton-on-the-Heath, just north of Stratford, in 1781. Upon  assuming
> the rectorship, Wilmot eagerly explored the Stratford area for
> historical information on Shakespeare.  But he was gradually forced to
> conclude that Shakespeare could not have been the author.  Scouring
> every private library within a 50-mile radius, he was unable to find
> any book that could be proven to have belonged to Shakespeare; he
> collected a great many local legends from the Stratford area  (which,
> he felt, anyone growing up in the area must have known of), but found
> no reference to them in any of Shakespeare's works.  He began to
> suspect that the plays were actually written by Bacon, noting the many
> parallels between the philosophy of Bacon and the thoughts expressed in
> Shakespeare's works.   Being a cautious man, he kept these views to
> himself.  But in 1805, he permitted his friend James Corton Cowell to
> present his theory before a meeting of the Ipswich Philosophical
> Society, on the condition that his identity remain a secret. Cowell,
> with considerable trepidation, presented the theory to the Society (who
> received them, apparently, in stony silence) but swore his fellow
> members to secrecy.  Wilmot burned all of his personal papers on the
> topic just before his death.  Not until 1932 was the story uncovered,
> and Wilmot accorded the posthumous honor of being the first official
> anti-Stratfordite.>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------

Sounds rather suspicious to me... like it was a fabricated story made up
later.  However, the fact that there were nuts then does not exonerate
nuts now.
> 
> >> So far as any one KNOWS AND CAN PROVE, Shakespeare of Stratford wrote
> >> only one poem during his life. This one is authentic. He did write that
> >> one--a fact which stands undisputed; he wrote the whole of it; he wrote
> >> the whole of it out of his own head. He commanded that this work of art
> >> be engraved upon his tomb, and he was obeyed. There it abides to this
> >> day. This is it:
> >>
> >>      Good friend for Iesus sake forbeare
> >>      To digg the dust encloased heare:
> >>      Blest be ye man yt spares thes stones
> >>      And curst be he yt moves my bones.
> >>
> >This may not have been written by Shakespeare.  We don't know WHO wrote
> >it.  Certainly, it was not PUBLISHED UNDER HIS NAME during his lifetime,
> >as so many of his plays have been.
> >
> >> In the list as above set down will be found EVERY POSITIVELY KNOWN fact
> >> of Shakespeare's life, lean and meager as the invoice is. Beyond these
> >> details we know NOT A THING about him. All the rest of his vast history,
> >> as furnished by the biographers, is built up, course upon course, of
> >> guesses, inferences, theories, onjectures--an Eiffel Tower of
> >> artificialities rising sky-high from a very flat and very thin
> >> foundation of inconsequential facts.
> >
> >What do we "know" about anyone's childhood from that time?  With the
> >exception of the nobility, damn near nothing.  Perhaps they were all
> >imposters.  Perhaps the universe was created three secondsa ago, with
> >all its artifacts and your memories intact.  You can't "prove"
> >otherwise.  And neither you, nor Twain, nor anybody has a reason.
> 
>       You never asked me to 'prove' anything.
> 
>             You asked why I thought:
> 
>   "Writing Shake-speare was a ridiculously improbable task
>                  for the Stratford man."
> 
>                    And I answered.

But, apparently, you did not finish, because you have offered nothing
more than circumstance, and easily explained circumstance at that.  Keep
trying, you'll get it some day.

-- Sidwick

(I think if we are to continue this discussion, we might wish to trim
it... I am being forced to post a ridiculously large number of J's...)

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