🚀 go-pugleaf

   
   Yep, J ropin 1 wrote to All on 06 Jul 95  11:57:09 
    about:   Re: more Welfare Cowboys? (eco):

 Jr1> From: jropin1@aol.com (J ropin 1)
 Jr1> Doug, where are you getting your information buddy???

 Jr1> Have you seen this "destruction", or just read about it somewhere? I
 
   I see it all the time.  But, like most people, I noticed it
   now and then until my eyes were opened by doing a little research
   involving the demise of our local deer herd here in the central
   Sierra Nevada.
 
 Jr1> am so sick and tired of people believing this crap about how cattle are
 Jr1> destroying the land.  And I'm real tired of this "welfare cowboy"
 Jr1> crap. 
 Jr1> Subsidized how?

 Jr1> When we run cattle on public land, we pay the AUM which is lower than
 Jr1> what we pay a private lessee, 
 
   That is 1). 
   2) subsidized water for permanent pasture.
   3) subsidized water for feed (bales and suppliments + feedlot).
   4) subsidized by environment (Public Lands impact)

 Jr1> what we pay a private lessee, but that person does all the labor,
 Jr1> maintains the fences, keeps the water going, feeds the mineral
 Jr1> etc.etc.etc. 
 
   I have leased permanent pasture.  We did not provide the mineral,
   other costs were minimal.  A close friend leases his foothill
   land, and provides nothing else.  The lessee even maintains the
   fences.  What "etc.etc.etc."???

 Jr1> On public land's, we, the permitee, maintains and improves on that
 Jr1> land. The water and mineral we provide for our cattle attract wildlife.
 Jr1> That's period...because it is the TRUTH. 
 
   I can hardly call you a liar from here, but other than as a bird 
   bath, a water trough tied to a spring is hardly an improvement.  A
   salt lick may be convenient but hardly needed for wildlife.
 
 Jr1> Wildlife graze with cattle ALL THE TIME. 
 
   Radio collar studies on mule deer show they avoid cattle.  The
   cattle monopolize the meadows and deer feed only on the sparse
   peripheries.  Cattle chomp down the grass that the deer would 
   normally use for fawning.  This lack of cover from predators
   is thought to be a major cause of fawn mortality.

 Jr1>  They like having the water sources we provide and the
 Jr1> mineral. 
 
   And prey tell, what did they do before cattle?
 
 Jr1> When running cattle on public land's, the grass and utilization is
 Jr1> monitored by the USFS or BLM.  If we are unable to ride the allotment
 Jr1> everyday to move cattle off riparian area's and other key area's, we
 Jr1> hire a rider to do so which cost's $800.00- $1000.00 a month. I know
 Jr1> this because this has been my job for several summer's.  I know when to
 
   And it's a hoax.  I have many times seen cattle overgrazing
   meadows in one particular fawning area and NEVER seen a rider.
   This was particularly bad one year after a fire.  Did the USFS
   reduce the AUMs?  Hell no!  The cattle butchered it!
 
 Jr1> move the cattle because I know the grasses, and when they have been
 Jr1> grazed properly.  I am a good range manager as are all cattleman who
 Jr1> are still in the business.  It is in our best interest to take care of
 Jr1> our land, because it is how we make our living, whether it is deeded
 Jr1> land or public land.  I am outside everyday, in the mountains of
 Jr1> Wyoming working and not a day goes by that I do not feel blessed for
 Jr1> what I have.   
 
   I did not mean to imply that you were some evil villain.  In
   fact I envy your job.  However, as you suggest, you maintain 
   the land in good condition FOR CATTLE.  Furthermore, you move
   in in seasonally during prime conditions, and move out when 
   the going gets tough.
 
 Jr1> Anyone who is stating that our rangelands are being ruined by cattle
 Jr1> grazing is full of shit, ignorant of the fact's and probably
 Jr1> brainwashed by their environmental magazines and groups who tell them
 Jr1> lies.  
 
   You had made it quite clear which benchmarks you use to judge
   the condition of the land.
 
 Jr1> Maybe 100 years ago the land was abused, but this is 1995 and
 Jr1> for a long time now ranchers have become educated on positive range
 Jr1> management (Holistic Resource Management). Why in the hell would we
 Jr1> want to ruin the land which we love, and that feeds our families also??
 
   We agree, you do not.  Never suggested otherwise.
 
 Jr1> How can you think this, it doesn't make a bit of sense.  And I am not
 Jr1> going to give up my dreams and my lifestyle for people who are ignorant
 Jr1> of the facts, AND many who will never even see this land they are
 Jr1> trying to "save"! 
 
   Sorry pal.  My land is rattlesnakes, cougars and poison oak chaparral.
   Don't give me your condescending shit.
 
 Jr1> Overgrazing is not profitable to us, but undergrazing is not healthy
 Jr1> for the land either.     Jr1> Jodi Greer

   Need I point out that again, you have equated "profitable"
   with "healthy"? 

   I have hardly begun to list the degradation that heavy tropical 
   animals cause our West.  Or the disease to our once pristine creeks.  
   I am not really trying to pick a fight with you, it sounds like 
   you are trying to do your best.  

   I can only say, that until I looked into it, I looked at the hills
   and thought "natural".  It is all I have ever known.  Now I can 
   see the damage from across the canyon.  (I am NOT talking about 
   overgrazed to the point of no grass cover and rut-erosion)  It is 
   worse than clearcutting some say, but I think it is in the same 
   ballpark.  
   
   You ask what I "read".
   Most of my information about deer came from the same Federal 
   agencies you mention, as well as studies from the FSU on our
   deer.  Going deeper, I read _Holy Cows at the Public Trough_,
   and corresponded with that author, as well as others.  I have
   worked in Sequoia National Forest on a meadow restoration project
   and pow wow with biologists, sportsmen, and environmentalists 
   from all over the state and nation.  Besides planting willow 
   trees, we fell pine trees in a pattern to keep the cattle out 
   of certain areas for fawning.   (Cattle usage was causing 
   forest encroachment into the meadow.)
 
   Having become somewhat of a local deer expert, I concluded
   that cattle are only part of the problem, and while important,
   perhaps not the major part.  But I did learn that cattle make 
   small streams move underground, and fencing will cause them
   to pop back out in a few years.  And many other things.

 Jr1> of the facts, AND many who will never even see this land they are
 Jr1> trying to "save"! 

   I hope that I have given you a slightly different perspective,
   and that you will check it out on your own.  I do not believe that
   I am talking out of my ass.
   --Doug


...  False economic assumptions are the root of all environmental problems