🚀 go-pugleaf

Mike Vandeman (mjvande@pbhye.PacBell.COM) wrote:
: >>As a matter of fact, there is one (and only one) private park for 
: >>motorcycle use near me.  It is closely monitored by Marin County's 

: Who says the public owes you a motorcycle playground?

Certainly not me, Mike.  I never said that the public owes me anything 
other than the rights and respect that are due all citizens.  I sure as 
hell never said anything about being owned a motorcycle playground.  I 
wouldn't even want to use a motorcycle playground if the public provided 
one for me.  In case you missed the point, I don't own a motorcycle.

Other than the fact that it is so obviously irrelevant, that was a nice 
try at distracting us with a straw man argument, though.

: There are thousands of miles of public roads you can ride on. 

Boy, sometimes you say the damndest things, Mikey!  Have you forgotten 
that roads are the most evil, environmentally destructive curse on the 
face of the earth?  Since when have you taken to promoting the use of 
"thousands of miles of public roads."  Wait until all the bugs and 
bunnies that you claim to speak for get a load of this!  Why, they'll pee 
on your hiking shoes and build hornets nests at the door to your 
habitat-destroying urban dwelling!

: There is no "right" to ride off-road, 

Except as specifically prohibitted by law, citizens in our country do 
have a right to ride off-road.  The same principle applies to your right 
to hike off-road.

and there are many environmental laws that it violates.

Which laws are those?  Please quote the sections of these laws that 
prohibit all riding off-road.  Go ahead, knock yourself out.

: >>The point of my request was to focus attention on the cavalier attitude 
: >>of the previous poster who was quite certain that there were ample 
: >>opportunities for off-road motorists to do their thing.  That is the same 

: It's true: they are called "roads".

Oh, you naughty turncoat, you!  The road kil in waiting are going to be 
very upset with you!

BTW, don't you see anything strange about pointing to roads as places for 
off-road motorists to enjoy themselves.  Maybe its just a semantic trick, 
but there is something about that notion that strikes me as 
self-contradictory.

: >>It helps, too, to be reminded that none of us have a right to run public
: >>land as though it were our private property, ignoring the wishes of other
: >>segments of the public.  If it's public, it needs to be managed with the
: >>broad range of public interests in mind.  Cooperation, rather than
: >>coercion, is the key to longterm protection of our varied interests. 
:  
: There is another term for cooperation in illegal activity: conspiracy.

Yeah, that was one of the charges against the Earth First! folks who got 
popped a few years ago, wasn't it?

: Where is it written that EVERYone's hobbies have to be supported on
: public lands? 

On what authority should we support the hobbies of some citizens on 
public lands while denying support for the hobbies of others?

: I want to do bulldozer racing. Why can't I? 

I don't know, why can't you?  Sounds about as sensible as anything you've
done as far as I know.  If you can actually find someone who wants to race
against you, maybe you'll actually win.  Now that you've turned on the
world's wildlife, I suppose scaring them off with D-9 would probably
represent a sort of victory in and of itself.  Frankly, I think the whole
idea is kinda stupid, but if you can pull it off without imposing a
significant impact on the environment, endangering public safety, or
violating a host of property laws, I suppose you should have a chance at
satisfying this crazy urge.  

Go for it, Mikey!  Let us know how it works out.  Just listen to that
inner voice--the one that said, "I want to do bulldozer racing." 

: To be fair, you can't exclude me. 

That's right.  You shouldn't be forced to meet a different standard than 
the rest of us, even if you appear to some of us to be a little different 
yourself.  To be fair, there should be an even-handed application of laws 
and standards with an eye toward protecting public and private property, 
human health and safety, and commonly held interests.  If you want to 
enjoy your freedom by doing something silly like racing bulldozers or any 
other crazy activity, you should be free to do it so long as you do not 
violate the same objective standards that must be abided by people who 
prefer more commonly accepted activities.

: None of you Wise Abusers have been able to answer that.

Well, doncha worry none about them, cuz I just answered the question you 
didn't quite get around to asking.  To be fair, we can't just exclude you 
from public land because of who you are or what you do, so long as your 
activities don't result in effects that are prohibitted by law.  Feel 
better now?

: Then you didn't look, or iddn't know what to look for. It takes decades,
: if not centuries, for desert lands to recover from ANY physical disturb-
: ance such as motorcycling or bicycling. That is well known.

Then what's the point of closing desert trails to, say, bicyclists but 
leaving them open to hikers and equestrians?  If any physical disturbance 
will create impacts from which the land cannot recover for decades, no 
recover will be possible unless all impacts are completely banned--and 
prevented--for at least that length of time.  Nothing in the new desert 
park legislation will do that.  To the contrary, the new legislation 
calls for all sorts of contruction and maintenance that will increase the 
permanent impacts to the desert.