🚀 go-pugleaf

can.gov,alt.reform.fresh-start
Re: Zundel my hero!

In article <36427933.0@news.oanet.com>,
  "Gothland" <gothland@nospam.oanet.com> wrote:
> >I don't want the state or a special interest group, deciding what is 'hate
> >speech' or a 'hate crime'.
>
> I'm going to go on the assumption that what you mean here is that you don't
> want the state or a special interest group deciding what is 'hate speech' or
> a 'hate crime' for everyone else in the country.
>
> Obviously, what constitutes hate is a personal opinion, but if we say that
> we don't want the state (ie. government) to decide what 'hate crimes' are,
> then doesn't it follow that we don't want the state to be able to keep any
> sort of hate crime from happening?
>
> If I tell people that I hate reformers, and I convince them to kill you and
> many other people in your party, do you not feel that I deserve to be
> punished for my involvement in your death?  Or is it just your bad luck that
> you didn't think to convince them to kill me first?
>
> I know, I know, I'm a hopeless realist.

No, you are just hopelessly muddled.

There are two IF conditions in your hypothetical:
"If I tell people that I hate reformers" and
"[if] I convince them to kill you"

The problem here is that although the second IF condition is a real,
provable, criminal act, the first IF condition is just an expression
of opinion, a personal fact about yourself, and dangerously elastic.

If I scratch my nose and rob a bank, have I committed a crime?  Of
course.  But scratching my nose is not a crime.  It is just
irrelevant--like wearing jeans or standing exactly 5'9" tall.

But if I convince other people to rob a bank or to kill, I have
entered a conspiracy to commit a crime.  And that, in itself, is a
crime.  It does not matter what reasons I bring to the convincing:
They may be hatred, greed, revenge, satanism, or sadism--it doesn't
matter.

Greed may motivate people to kill, but if you make GREED a criminal
emotion, you are going to have to put most of the world's population
in prison.  Greed speech, if made illegal, will put all the financial
planners in jail, along with the pyramid marketeers, jewellery
advertizers, car salesmen, career counselors, and bank presidents.

Silly, you say?  But greed leads to murders, so greed must be bad.
Get rid of greed, and we make a perfect world!  What are we waiting
for?

For an example of an infinitely elastic definition of "hate speech",
you have only to observe how it is being used by its practitioners
in Canada, even as we speak.  The Human Rights Commission prosecutors
are arguing that it is not necessary for hatred to be overtly
expressed in the words:  It is enough that the words INSPIRE hatred in
those who read or hear them.  And it does not matter whether the words
are true:  Even true speech, if it inspires hatred, is forbidden.  And
it does not matter whether a case actually exists where hatred was
inspired:  It is enough that the words MIGHT inspire hatred.

And so it goes.  Infinitely elastic.

This is not justice.  This is a witch trial, pure and simple.  We tie
a stone to your feet and throw you in the lake.  If you are a witch,
you will save yourself and then we will burn you at the stake.  It
are innocent, you will drown.  Either way we will be rid of you.

And that is all they care about.  They don't seem to care if they
destroy human liberty throughout the western world.  They will do it
to "get" their man.  Because they do want to get him, oh, yes they do.

So far, to get Zundel, they have fire-bombed his house, ruined his
business by barricading his house with pickets, attempted to murder
him with a pipe bomb, and prosecuted him in criminal court for
spreading "false news".

This web page contains copy of a poster that was circulated around
Toronto. The poster contains instructions on how to make a Molotov
cocktail and gives the address of Zundel's house and instructions on
how to get there.

http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/debate/debatetoc.html

This page also shows the work of someone who took the poster's advice
and serverly damaged Zundel's house with criminal arsen.

If hate were a crime, can it get any worse than those who now are
prosecuting Ernst Zundel?  To me, it looks as though the wrong people
are on trial.

--Slade
                                -------
             Look out, Canada, Zundel has a printing press
                      and he knows how to use it!
                Use your lawyers and aim for his rights!
                                -------
              Is this what they put people in prison for??
                     http://www.webcom.com/ezundel

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