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In article <3f7188e3@news.comindico.com.au>, fake@address.com says...
> 
> "Peter" <turned.up@the.side> wrote in message
> news:MPG.19dc25946f48b39498a0c4@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > In article <3f7166e1@news.comindico.com.au>, fake@address.com says...

> > > > > This isssue has been discussed AND is resolved .. Peter Mackey (Mackay)
> > > > > served in the University of Queensland Regiment .. he was never in the ARMY
> > > > > as we regulars (ex and current) understand it, simply a weekend schoolie
> > > > > warrior . he may well have attained the rank of sergeant although those
> > > > > ranks are pretty worthless as their not indicative of hard work and
> > > > > achiement .. merely showing up regularly.
> > > >
> > > > LOL! If only that were true - I would have been drawing a sergeant's pay
> > > > after the first year.
> > > 
> > > I'm sure a sergeant in the regulars would back me up on that.
> >
> > People don't get promoted above Lance-Corporal in the Australian Army for
> > "merely showing up regularly".
> 
> How would you know?  You were merely a reservist.

Promotion procedures in the military aren't ad-hoc. Feel free to provide a 
source for your incorrect statement that people get promoted for "merely 
showing up regularly".

> 
> > Well, that's different to what you were struggling to say above. The
> simple
> > fact is that members of the Army Reserve are soldiers and an integral part
> > of the Army.
> 
> I'm sure every reservist thinks that.  However, in the big scheme of the
> real service, reservists were until about 1993 pretty much pockets on
> underpants.

Your opinion. Not one supported by reality.
> 
> > For which I am eternally grateful. There weren't any wars to go to during
> > my time. I wish it were so now.
> 
> so your *service* was nothing more than showing up every second weekend and
> two weeks a year 

Nope. that's your imagination at work again.

> .. my how much you must have learnt about the military
> during that time.   Your glowing description of the sgts exam is laughable

What exam? We had to make the standard in a number of areas. It was more 
continuous assessment over the whole course than one exam.

> ... you forget, that there are those of us here who know what promotion
> exams involve.  Hardly the difficult and involved process you describe.

You don't seem to know what promotion subjects involved. You weren't even 
in the Army, were you?
 
> > Crap. The soldiers who fought in the two World Wars were NOT Regular Army.
> 
> Crap

The plain fact, easily found, is that the soldiers who fought in the two 
world wars, were, for the most part, members of the First and Second 
Australian Imperial Forces. The were citizen soldiers enlisted in units 
raised locally for wartime service only. They were not regular troops by 
any definition.
> 
> > The permanent forces stayed home.
> 
> Crap

Plain fact. Apart from the navy, very few members of the permanent forces 
left Australia. A few senior officers. General Bridges springs to mind. 
General Monash came from a University militia unit.
> 
> > If you don't believe me, go look up a few sources.
> 
> I don't need to, I have the information here .. in front of me on this desk
> .. service records for generations of my family .. all within arms reach and
> it all contradicts what you suggest.

Feel free to quote. What units of the permanent force did they serve with? 
> 
> > all three Services have been largely relegated to the status of reserves
> > with a role of providing support to more operationally ready and better
> > resourced permanent forces."
> 
> Hmm.. well that describes your place in the big scheme of the services quite
> well .. send the regulars out .. let the reservists cover the rest.  You
> appear to forget a bunch of things about the military Peter, and one main
> thing appears to be what the regulars do when they discharge...

Yeah. I've forgotten more than you ever knew, I suspect. I noticed you 
snipped this part of the quote: "Most notably, part-time forces comprised 
essentially the Army up until the end of the Second World War. In the 
period since, the part-time forces in all three Services have been largely 
relegated to the status of reserves..."

http://www.defence.gov.au/reserves/ "Reserves History" tab. It's a quote 
from an official Defence website which directly contradicts your statement. 
Do you want to talk about this?
> 
> > Sure. But the Anzac legend was created by citizen soldiers who joined
> units
> > raised locally, went overseas, and came back when the conflict was done.
> 
> They weren't reservists Peter .. they were Australians who joined up to
> fight the fight .. I lost three ancestors on the beaches of ANZAC Cove, none
> of which were *weekend warriors*.

They were certainly not members of the permanent forces. I wouldn't mind 
betting that the unit(s) they served with were raised again for the 2nd AIF 
and remain in existence to this day. As Army Reserve units.

> > Not much bush at U of Q. But I'm not trying to pretend that QUR was any
> > sort of combat unit. Even if there *had* been a war going on, it would
> have
> > had to be pretty desperate for Uni Regiments to be thrown into the fray.
> 
> Which was the point being made by the others ....

LOL! It's *exactly* my point. I wasn't any sort of hero. My role in the 
defence of the nation was minimal in the extreme. QUR was more of a social 
club than any sort of military unit. That was 20 years ago and I don't try 
to present myself as a soldier now.

Nevertheless, I was a soldier and a member of the Australian Army.


> 
> > Simple historical fact. And I have no doubt that there are other soldiers,
> > both Regular and Reserve, who could win a VC if the circumstances
> > permitted.
> 
> Actually, the war memorial is full of those who did.  The majority were
> regulars .. in fact .. i'm pretty sure that there isn't a single "reservist"
> who was awarded a VC.

I suggest you do some research. Here is the complete list of Aussie VC 
winners: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~vcweb/complete.htm

Click on the names and you get a blurb on each winner. Let's take it from 
the top:

Charles Anderson was born at Cape Town, South Africa, on 12 February 1897. 
On 13 October 1916 he was commissioned as a lieutenant in the King�s 
African Rifles and fought with its 3rd Battalion in East Africa against the 
German-led Askari natives. In addition to being awarded the Military Cross 
he gained valuable jungle warfare experience. Anderson moved to Australia 
in 1934, and joined the Citizen Military Forces. He was appointed a captain 
in the 56th Battalion (Riverina Regiment). He was promoted to major on 26 
October and on 1 July 1940 was joined the Australian Imperial Force (AIF) 
as second-in-command of the 2/19th Battalion.

Thomas "Jack" Axford was born on 18 June 1894 in South Australia. He moved 
with his family to Western Australia and attended school at Coolgardie. He 
joined the 84th Infantry Regiment of the militia prior to enlisting in the 
Australian Imperial Force on 9 July 1915.

Peter Badcoe was a regular.

Robert Beatham was born on 16 June 1894 at Glassonby, Cumberland, in the 
United Kingdom. He migrated to Australia alone as a teenager and was 
working at Geelong, Victoria, as a labourer when he enlisted in the AIF on 
8 January 1915. 

Frederick Bell was born on 3 April 1875 in Perth, Western Australia. He 
enlisted in the 1st West Australian Mounted Infantry Contingent in October 
1899. This unit was raised by the Western Australian colonial government 
for service in South Africa in the Boer War, where he arrived on 27 
November. 

John Bisdee was born on 28 September 1869 in Tasmania, Australia. He 
enlisted for service in the South African War (Boer War) as a trooper in 
the 1st Tasmanian Imperial Bushmen.

And so it goes. A few more recipients:

Frank McNamara was born at Rushworth, Victoria, on 4 April 1894. He gained 
a degree from the University of Melbourne and followed a teaching 
profession in country Victoria. He served in several citizens forces before 
the First World War. In December 1914 he undertook officer training and 
from February to May 1915 he attended flying training at the Point Cook 
Flying School. He was posted to No. 1 Squadron, Australian Flying Corps, 
when it was formed in January 1916.

Reginald Roy Rattey, was born on March 28, 1917, at Barmedman, a small 
rural community midway between Wyalong and Temora, 457 kilometers south-
west of Sydney New South Wales, Australia. Reg was working at the 
Gibsonvale Open Cut Tin Mine at Kikoira and was a member of the Citizens 
Forces the 21st Light Horse Regiment at Wagga Wagga, under the command of 
Lieutenant Alexander. On September 24 1941, this regiment was reformed as a 
Carrier Regiment and conscripted into Australia's full time Military 
Forces. 

John Edmondson was born at Wagga Wagga, New South Wales, on 8 October 1914. 
He worked on a farm with his parents until he enlisted in the 2/17th 
Battalion on 20 May 1940, having already had service with a militia 
battalion. His previous service earned him quick promotion to corporal, and 
he embarked with the Battalion for the Middle East in October 1940.

Albert Chowne was born in Sydney, New South Wales, on 19 July 1920. He 
joined the 36th Battalion of the militia in January 1940 and enlisted in 
the Australian Imperial Force on 30 May 1940. He was posted to be 2/13th 
Battalion which embarked for duty in the Middle East in October of that 
year.

>  I think you are counting those who joined up for the
> conflicts are reservists when they really weren't.

They were overwhelmingly citizen soldiers. Until after the Second World 
War, the permanent forces were not used in combat, with the exception of 
the Navy (and many of those who saw combat service were members of the 
Royal Australian Navy Volunteer Reserve). This was a commonplace amongst 
the warring nations, where the standing armies were generally small 
professional forces and in time of war reserve formations were called up or 
created. The Australian Imperial Forces of the First and Second World Wars 
were not members of the Regular Army.

>   Joining up to help
> fight a way is a far cry from hiding behind the outhouse at a university
> isn't it?

Now you are being insulting. I could ask you about your combat experience 
too, and make snide comments when you finally admitted that you didn't have 
any, but I won't, expect to point out the hyposrisy of your stance.
> 
> >
> > That's just plain wrong. Army Reserve soldiers are soldiers.
> 
> We've covered this .. my committment to my country was 24x7, yours was every
> second weekend and 2 weeks a year.  Big difference.

Just address the point, please. Army Reserve soldiers are soldiers.
> 
> > http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/careers_explorer/ArmySEReservebody.html
> 
> You are quoting a different reserve force from the one you were in Peter ..

Nevertheless, my point stands. Army Reserve soldiers are soldiers. How far 
back do you want me to go? Before Federation the various colonies had 
militia units and the members of those units were soldiers, according to 
contemporary documents. 

>   I cannot comment at Peter Lucas'
> military history as I have no knowledge of it.

He claims to have spent a few years in QUR. You're saying he wasn't a 
soldier during that time. That's your opinion.

> 
> > What's that supposed to mean? You're agreeing with me?
> 
> Actually, you're agreeing with me ...   these people have asked you to prove
> you were a soldier .. you state quite clearly that you weren't

Where, precisely, did I state this?
> 
> > That's the whole point. I got out twenty years ago. I'm not a soldier.
> 
> and never have been......

Obviously I was. Here's a section or two from the Defence Act:

DEFENCE ACT 1903 SECT 31 
31 Australian Army 
The Australian Army consists of 2 parts: 

(a) 
the Regular Army; and 
(b) 
the Army Reserve. 

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/da190356/s31.html

DEFENCE ACT 1903 SECT 32A 
32A Army Reserve 
The Army Reserve consists of: 

(a) officers appointed to, and soldiers enlisted in, the Army Reserve; and 
(b) officers and soldiers transferred to the Army Reserve from: 
(i) the Regular Army; or 
(ii) the Australian Navy; or 
(iii) the Australian Air Force. 

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/da190356/s32a.html

> > >  I was given the opportunity to gain insight into the opinions of a
> > > few of them and I'd have to disagree with you on that.
> > 
> > Please. Give details.
> 
> Don't hold your breath on that
> 
> > Are you trying to say that our senior military leaders say one thing in
> > widely reported speeches, and another in private audiences with you, and
> > that your version supersedes the official version?
> 
> Are you saying that public figures always speak the truth and their own
> opinions?  :p  Now that's the funniest thing i've heard in a very long time.
> That's almost as funny as Howard claiming no knowledge of intelligence ..
> (oh wait ..  Howard and intelligence should never be used in the same
> sentence :o)

Just answer my question, please. Are you trying to say that our senior 
military leaders say one thing in widely reported speeches, and another in 
private audiences with you, and that your version supersedes the official 
version?
 
> What I was actually saying is that i've heard opinions the differ from what
> you infer.   I don't go listen to them speak in public so couldn't verify or
> deny what i've heard in comparison to what's been said in public.  However,
> I was in the military long enough to know that puppets speak the official
> line .. and fall on their swords for their pollies .. foolish really, but
> then I know what happens when they refuse....

Just answer my question, please. Are you trying to say that our senior military leaders say one thing in widely reported speeches, and another in private audiences with you, and that your version supersedes the official version?

-- 

Cheers,

Pete