🚀 go-pugleaf

(Warning: long)


You liked me so much better when I said I was in favor
of gay marriages.  Has the bloom gone off the rose
so soon?  I wrote Romer about it, just to let you know.
If he signs it I guess one of the Hawaiian couples
will move here and start the ball rolling, at least that's
what Equality Colorado and the ACLU have said will
happen.

I saw your editorial in Westword, btw.  Good stuff!

Melissa Rhiannon Brookstone <MelissaXXX@asupernet.com> wrote in article
<5ku3ac$fa0_001@dialup1.den.amnix.com>...
> In article <01bc5ab4$01508ac0$8095a8ce@default>,
>    "Me" <none@urbusiness.com> wrote:
> >I don't post my name precisely because nuts are
> >running around with concealed weapons.  Do as you
> >feel best, but I aien't gonna' get my butt blown off
> >by some Nutzie on Usenet.  
> 
> Sounds pretty paranoid but ok.
> 
> >I'm a he, for those who MUST know.  
> >
> >BTW, it's not and never has been the guns that
> >have kept any semblance of peace, liberty, justice,
> >and general welfare in a political system. 
> 
> Oh come now. Is that why it's been the first act of every tyrant 
> throughout history to disarm the people?
> 
> Did you think the Second Amendment got there by whim?
> 

This is quite the debate.  What was the intention?  After reading the
Constitution (Amendment 2 and Article 1, Section and the US Code, Chapter
13, I am of the opinion that there is no one intention of those who wrote
any of it.  There's an old saying that a camel is a horse put together by a
committee.  I think the right to bear arms - militia thing is in that
category.

Bottom line: people will read into it what they want based on who they are.
 

I'd like to lay this all out in one place to see if anyone else can make
any sense out of it.

Here's from Article 1, Section 8, abridged to only include powers for war,
calling troops, etc.

(Paragraph One)
	The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect
	 Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the
	 Debts and provide for the common Defence and
	 general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, 	Imposts and
Excises shall be uniform throughout
	 the United States; 

(note it refers to the "common defense".. and for those who think the
Constitution doesn't allow government to institute welfare programs,
there's that power specifically enumerated.)

(Paragraphs 11 - 16)

	To declare War, grant Letters of Marque
	 and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning
	 Captures on Land and Water;

	To raise and support Armies, but no
	Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be
	 for a longer Term than two Years;

(Note it doesn't say they can't vote to appropriate money for
a new two year term, for those interested).

	To provide and maintain a Navy;

	To make Rules for the Government and 	Regulation
	of the land and naval Forces;

	To provide for calling forth the Militia to
	execute the Laws of the Union, suppress
	 Insurrections and repel Invasions;

(Also an interesting notion, the Militias are called to benefit
the federal state to put down internal uprisings and to stop
external invasions.. so much for Jefferson's notion of perpetual
revolution.)

	To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining,
	the Militia, and for governing such Part of them 
	as may be employed in the Service of the 
	United States, reserving to the States respectively,
	 the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of 	training the
Militia according to the discipline prescribed 	by Congress;

(The feds organize, *ARM*, and discipline this militia to service the
federal state.  The states get to appoint the officers.  This shows
Madison's hand in his attempts to keep powers separated, and yet to leave
the federal state with the resources to do what it must to preserve the
United States.)

(And, of course, the requisite clause that reserves to congress the ability
to make whatever laws are needed..)

	To make all Laws which shall be necessary and
	proper for carrying into Execution the
	foregoing Powers, and all other Powers 
	vested by this Constitution in the Government
	of the United States, or in any Department or
	 Officer thereof.

On to Amendment 2:

Amendment II

	A well regulated Militia, being necessary to
	the security of a free State, the right of the
	people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
	 infringed. 

(Taken in context with Article 1, Section 8, "Militia" means
something specific, they exist to preserve national security,
the Congress is to arm them, and their rights to keep those arms 
is not to be removed because to do so would jeopardize national
sovereignty.  But I can see some ambiguity at play, and it's not helped by
the two documents having been written several years apart, and subject to
politics as is any attempt at the codification of principles or rights.)

I'd love to include the sections of the US Code on this stuff,
but the server was down,  http://law.house.gov/uscsrch.htm
for those interested.  And if anyone is still interested, when it's
available I'd be happy to add it to these Usenet groups so we can
really start discussing this properly, and stop sniping at each other.  

This stuff is not easy and has the potential for serious repurcussions if
we do this wrong.

 > It's
> >the will of the people to be a nation
> >based on these virtues that results in the 
> >perpetuation of these virtues.  If the will isn't
> >there, no amount of law or guns will turn the
> >monsters away.  
> 
> Sorry, guns in the hands of the people ensure that government won't 
> easily take our freedoms.
> 

Let's be realistic for a moment.  

The past does not equal the present.  One upon a time
it may have been possible for citizens to hold the 
government troops off and, perhaps, defeat them when
it was a matter of muskets, repeating rifles, cannons,
trains, and the telegraph.  Things have changed a bit.
Regardless of the stockpile of weapons people may 
now have in their homes or wherever, these days, if the government really
wanted to get us, there's not a
damned thing we could do to stop it.

Not with nukes.  Nope.  All they would have to do is
threaten to use one warhead on some major city, and mean
it, and it's over.

But they don't, Melissa.  

In the US, supposedly the government is us. If we take up
arms against the government, we take up arms against ourselves,
strangely.  

Does government overreach?  Of course it does.  Our government has no
business propping up murderers like Alberto Fujimori in Peru, Mobutu in
Zaire (who has about $8 billion in US foreign aid. intended to help his
people, hidden in European banks),  
the bastard Suharto in Indonesia who has had his troop commit genocide
against the people of the East Timor, with impunity from the US.  There are
many ways I would like to see our government act differently.  That's why I
vote.  That's why I engage in politics.  It's vital.

> >That will appears sorely lacking, these days, and I'd
> >really love for someone to explain why.  
> 
> Probably because so many are willing to give up liberty for empty
promises 
> of safety.

What would you be willing to give up to be safe in your same-sex marriage? 


Anyway.. till next time.  Thanks for responding to my
message.