Thread View: comp.admin.policy
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Started by Mark Feit
Wed, 07 Oct 1992 19:05
Re: Banned Computer Material 1992
Author: Mark Feit
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1992 19:05
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1992 19:05
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On comp.admin.policy, sbrack@jupiter (Steven S. Brack) posts: > > : feit@ERA.COM (Mark Feit) writes: > : > True, plenty of other stuff (reading news, etc.) goes on and the > : >rule isn't enforced when the outside activities don't interfere with > : >those who are using their accounts to the end for which they were > : >issued. > > "We'll hold this club over your head, but as long as you don't > upset us, we won't use it." Selective enforcement of the rules > has never been good policy, because it is too open to abuse. > The same rule must be applied to everyone, everytime, the same > way. Anything else engenders special privelege. Okay, Steve, let's look at that from the other end of the spectrum: "I have this rule here against xyz, and I've got every intention of enforcing the hell out of it. To do that, I'm going to watch your every move while within ten feet of any of my hardware, demand an inspection of the source for every program you wish to run before you are permitted to execute it, screen your e-mail, et cetera. This means, of course, that you don't get anything done in a decent amount of time because you're busy getting your every move approved, and I don't get anything done because I'm busy crawling up your tail with a microscope. But by God that rule against xyz is going to be enforced, and nobody's going to slip through the cracks." If that's the way you think everything should be enforced, you're living in the wrong country. Selective enforcement goes on every day. Look at traffic. If we tried to eliminate it by stationing a police officer every quarter-mile on every street to catch and enforce EVERYTHING, none of us would ever make it to work in the morning. There's a tradeoff here: Society won't keep you under constant scrutiny, and in exchange society expects you to be responsible enough to follow the rules. They call that SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY, and it's something I think a lot of people in this country have lost sight of. > : > But you're still using the university's resources. If you > : >keep doing something you've been asked to stop because it eats > : >resources others need to use, then as far as I'm concerned they've got > : >all the right in the world to pull the rug out from under you and > : >start due process. I don't see why due process can't start _after_ > : >the rug pulling, since the perpetrator likely to keep pulling the same > : >stunts if the account remains in place. > : [...] > The same reason that persons accused of crimes should be released > on reasonable bail whenever possible. People get released on bail under the assumption they're not likely to repeat the same crime while they're out. But you can bet your bottom dollar that bail will be revoked if they're arrested for the same thing. And if you're denied bail and tossed in the clink until your trial comes up, you're still being deprived of your rights to go out and frolic as you please without instant due process. (Perhaps the time is ripe for the Court of Appeals on Wheels?) > The denial of computing > resources is a punishment, whether intended that way or not. Bull. Same story as above. Re-read what I wrote: "If you keep doing something you've been asked to stop because it eats resources others need to use..." I really don't have any problem with asking somebody to stop doing something that's "against the rules" -- the first time around. I'm always willing to forgive an innocent mistake even when ignorance of the rules is involved. But if I'm heard and ignored, it crosses over the line and becomes intentional. And THAT, I believe, is where "selective enforcement" comes into play in this case. Ever drop something you were holding in frontof a police officer and got a ticket for littering before you were able to bend over and pick it up? I didn't think so. That's selective enforcement. There's a trade-off (yes, another one) of responsibility for freedom once you start dealing with the freedoms of others. If you've got a system of your own (and that's not "somebody else's but all to yourself," BTW) you're free to make your own rules and do whatever the heck you feel like. But once you've agreed to share that system with others, you're responsible for making sure you don't deny someone else their rights by your actions -- especially when that someone else has chipped in the same share you have to have a subset of the freedoms they'd have on their own systems if they had them. Again, SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY. > : >As for having the right to express yourself, you've got it. But as > : >was pointed out in another thread on another newsgroup, just because > : >you've got the right to express yourself doesn't mean that others have > : >to provide the soap box. > > But many public universities still have codes restricting these > speakers, & restricting the character of the meetings. e.g.: > 1) Communist Party meetings, or > 2) Gay student organizations' meetings. > > These have most often been prohibited on the grounds that > their purpose is the discussion of illegal acts. That's true. And as long as the organizations are recognized by the university and nothing illegal is going on (conspiring counts here, IMHO), I can't agree with those policies either. (Does the U of T have a Criminal Justice club? Do they discuss illegal acts?) But that's an entirely different issue, which I'll leave for another thread on another newsgroup. - Mark ................................. ................................. : Mark A. Feit KD4TAJ : Internet: feit@era.com : : Engineering Research Associates : USENET: ...!uunet!era!feit : ................................. .................................
Re: Banned Computer Material 1992
Author: Dmitry Gokhman
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 23:43
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 23:43
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In article <1992Oct7.190538.6218@ERA.COM> feit@ERA.COM (Mark Feit) writes: >If that's the way you think everything should be enforced, you're >living in the wrong country. Selective enforcement goes on every day. In general, I think selective enforcement comes into play when the rules are a little too strict, so that too many ordinary people are breaking them in the course of their routine activities. I cases like these, since enforcers often cannot change the rules, they must resort to selective enforcement. Computer admins are often in an exceptional situation of being able to write the rules as well as being the ones enforcing them. Since selective enforcement relies on their own discretion, they tend to ignore the fact that such a system is inherently susceptible to corruption (to be extreme, consider Stalin's purges as selective enforcement). There is though a great opportunity to taylor the rules in such a way as to not hinder the ordinary user, but still have a system where the few irresponsible users can be dealt with (after all that's what rules are for). >Look at traffic. If we tried to eliminate it by stationing a police >officer every quarter-mile on every street to catch and enforce >EVERYTHING, none of us would ever make it to work in the morning. I think you mean eliminate traffic infractions. You brought up traffic enforcement as an example of selective enforcement. That it is. It is also very corrupt in the sense that most traffic rules are unnecessarily restrictive (e.g. a recent survey showed that an overwhelming majority of speed limits are too low for the road conditions). As a result the states and the county mounties have a wonderful source of revenue and, as long as enforcement remains selective, most people don't feel an urgency to do something about it. Selma, TX, a tiny community on the outskirts of San Antonio, enforced the 55 mph limit on I-35 vigorously, raking in unbelievable amounts of money (and earning a spot on CBS '60 minutes'), until enough state legislators got fined and pushed through a change in the apportionment of fines. >There's a tradeoff here: Society won't keep you under constant >scrutiny, and in exchange society expects you to be responsible enough >to follow the rules. They call that SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY, and it's >something I think a lot of people in this country have lost sight of. Couldn't agree with you more. I want to add that with enough irresponsible people around you need a mechanism to shield those who are responsible from the pernicious effects of the inevitable (and necessary) clampdown on the former. It is a law of human nature, that responsibilities go hand in hand with rights. The actual amount varies with circumstances. A curious example of this is taking place right now. Many of the former Communist police states are reduced to utter chaos once strict enforcement of people's lives is ended. People who have lived without rights, cannot cope with ordinary responsibilities a free citizen is expected to have. Back at the ranch, I think many admins (not just computer ones) tend to overreact to irresponsible acts by placing general restrictions that would presumably prevent such acts in the future without giving much thought to ultimate consequences of such a trend. The quick fix is easier than dealing with the jerks, but the quality of life (and computing) is reduced for everyone. For example, when I was a grad student in Berkeley, the mail room was vandalized and the reaction to that moronic act was not to find the culprits and expel them from our midst, but to restrict access to the room to just office hours. This is not an isolated incident, everywhere I have been, the quality of existence is gradually eroded by the cumulative effects of occasional irresponsibility and reaction to it. ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// - Mr. Gumby * \oo7 Dmitry Gokhman -> gokhman@ringer.cs.utsa.edu says: `/v/-* MY BRAIN HURTS J L YOUR AD HERE! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
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