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In article <3146547E.44B9@usnetworks.net>, rote@usnetworks.net 
says...
>
>        o       selecting the roses (how to tell a male from female!?!)

Even experienced rosarians have a hard time making the identification.  
Of course you can't examine the genitalia, because they're underground. 

P.S. The subject line about "genetic experiments with my kid" is open to 
multiple interpretation.

F. Clayton Rote wrote:
> 
> I have a 7 year old daughter that I would like to learn about genetics
> with.
> 
> She and her mother love the garden so I thought I would work a genetic
> experement into their plants.
> 
> I heared that you could breed roses and get predictable - an visibly
> significant results.  Unfortunately, I know nothing about the birds and
> the bees as it applies to roses.
> 
> Is there anyone out there that might know of a resource for instructions
> on such an experement, or any other experement that would be fun and
> educational for us?  I am envisioning sort of a cook book for breeding
> roses coving topics like:
> 
>         o       selecting the roses (how to tell a male from female!?!)
> 
>         o       how to controll their breeding
> 
>         o       timing for all thse events, etc.
> 
> Thank you in advance for any assistance.
> 
> Clayton Rote



I'd say you ought to go with sweet-peas, or with another annual such
as California poppy. For one thing, these will give you much faster
results than a rose bush might, and it is fairly simple to watch the
genes segregate. Since I'm a geneticist by training, I tend to like to
choose annuals with odd morphological traits for my garden, and watch
them do their thing. These odd morphological traits should represent 
easy to follow genetic variants.  Cosmos sea-shells, is fun since the 
petals fuse into tubes. Haven't noticed the results from a cross with 
the usual "wildtype" cosmoss flowers. I did choose some butter yellow 
Ca. Poppies a couple of years ago. The results of crossing naturally
with the normal ca poppies were very intersting. Flowers still 
maintaining the pale color tended to be small, actually the plants were
on the small side too. THe butter yellow color was lost in this second
generation, reverting to a sort of white-ish flower and the wildtype
golden-orange color. It hinted at being two genes, although I didn't do
the numbers, since some pale flowers were large while most were small. 
Of course the simplest thing would be to recapitualte some of Mendel's 
stuff- with sweet peas you can indeed look at traits of flower color,
and seed color and morphology.

With roses, you'll probably be waiting a long time for the progeny to
bloom. Plus I understand most varieties are sterile- you will obviously
need fertile rose hips.... One supposed trick is to stay away from 
the "double" blossoms, which are supposedly tetraploid and frequently
sterile (at least generally true of other flowers- ever wonder why
the doubles are so long lasting in a vase or on the bush???? doesn't 
know it's been pollinated and so doesn't recieve the signal to start
with the seed production. sterile flowers are long lasting and pretty.)

As for your questions: how to tell a male from a female???? Well, I've
never bred a rose, or looked down their genes, but as far as I know,
almost all plants excepting ginko trees and maybe cycad ferns are
BOTH!. pollen is the sperm. the stamen are the vagina. the hips are the
uterus. loosely speaking of course. 
To do the cross, you'd need to choose a flower to pollinate (it will
later produce the seeds provided it's not sterile) and then choose a
flower to harvest  pollen from to do the cross. I'd suspect a paint
brush would do the trick here . You'd need to choose the flower-motherr-
to-be early enough and cut its pollen producing parts so it won't have
the chance to "self".  THen allow the hips to form following a succesful
fertilization and then plant them and hope they germinate. then grow
up all those rose bushes and look for traits segregating. Maybe youd
cross a climber with a non climber, or a moss rose with a non. I don't
have a clue how long it will take to see the results a year? two? three?


Go with the sweet peas or poppies. Mendel was a smart cookie.


good luck!
Juliette Faraco
Human genetics student, but would do a rose-genome project if allowed...

faraco@cmgm.stanford.edu wrote:
>need fertile rose hips.... One supposed trick is to stay away from 
>the "double" blossoms, which are supposedly tetraploid and frequently
>sterile (at least generally true of other flowers- ever wonder why
>the doubles are so long lasting in a vase or on the bush???? doesn't 
>know it's been pollinated and so doesn't recieve the signal to start
>with the seed production. sterile flowers are long lasting and pretty.)

Very interesting information altogether but the quote most of all.
 
I have just sowed some seeds from Pauls Scarlet Climber, a climber with
extremely longlasting semidouble flowers (lasting so long I throw them 
out before their time because I get bored with them and because they are
absolutely scentless). Since the seeds are there it means the rose is
not sterile but could there still be something wrong with the seeds?
This is my first attempt at growing roses from seeds and I have no idea 
what healthy seed is supposed to look like.

Marianne Ahrne
Uppsala, Sweden

Marianne Ahrne (mahrne@csd.uu.se) wrote:
:  
: I have just sowed some seeds from Pauls Scarlet Climber, a climber with
: extremely longlasting semidouble flowers (lasting so long I throw them 
: out before their time because I get bored with them and because they are
: absolutely scentless). Since the seeds are there it means the rose is
: not sterile but could there still be something wrong with the seeds?

Dear Marianne,
	Think of the Pauls Scarlet Climber as a mule.  The parents are
fertile and give rise to viable seeds, but the progeny are infertile.
				Yours,
				Bill Tivol

kalia@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (R. Kalia) writes:

>In article <3146547E.44B9@usnetworks.net>, rote@usnetworks.net 
>says...
>>
>>        o       selecting the roses (how to tell a male from female!?!)

>Even experienced rosarians have a hard time making the identification.  
>Of course you can't examine the genitalia, because they're underground. 

>P.S. The subject line about "genetic experiments with my kid" is open to 
>multiple interpretation.

dont be silly there is no such thing as a male and female rose as each 
flower is perfect having both male and female parts, unless its a hybrid, 
in which case it still has them, but they are generally sterile :) 
Cheers, Rob

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
       Bury me in a field of roses and I die a happy woman.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marianne Ahrne <mahrne@csd.uu.se> wrote:
>faraco@cmgm.stanford.edu wrote:
>>need fertile rose hips.... One supposed trick is to stay away from 
>>the "double" blossoms, which are supposedly tetraploid and frequently
>>sterile 
Most modern HTs and Floribundas are teraploids. Some of the species are 
diploid and triploid. Trying to cross them with moderns is difficult.
> 
> Since the seeds are there it means the rose is
>not sterile but could there still be something wrong with the seeds?

Rose seed germination is infuriatingly erratic. Some varieties give 
beautiful seed which just refuses to germinate. It's a question of trial 
and error. Even then, they vary from year to year - like good wine:)

>This is my first attempt at growing roses from seeds and I have no idea 
>what healthy seed is supposed to look like.

Most but not all rose seed looks creamy, plump and healthy. However, some 
can look quite black and scrungy. It's trial and error again. If the seed 
pod looks good to you, harvest it when its turns pinkish red, shell it 
immediately, put it in a polythene bag with some moist sand or vermiculite 
and a teaspoon of a fungicide such as Euparen. Leave it in the 
refrigerator for two months and then sow it (usually, January/February in 
the North, July/August in the South.) Germination is erratic, but if the 
seed is goin to germinate well, you'll  have a general germination before 
the weather gets hot.
>
>Marianne Ahrne
>Uppsala, Sweden
>
>


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