🚀 go-pugleaf

In article
<NEWTNews.5034.823489224.DROBIN@drobin.pnet.msen.com.grafix-net.com>,
sysop@grafix-net.com wrote:

> We need people to perform page layout including...
> HTML and Web page creation.

<snip>
 
> DO NOT RESPOND VIA EMAIL.  Incomplete and email responses will 
> be ignored.

Tsk. Some people just don't get it, do they? Why on Earth would an outfit
purporting to do WWW work want tearsheets instead of URLs? Sad...

Lanny Chambers (creative@inlink.com)
Creative Services, St. Louis, USA
Visit the Hummingbird Page at:
<http://www.inlink.com/~creative/>

creative@inlink.com (Lanny Chambers) wrote:

>In article
><NEWTNews.5034.823489224.DROBIN@drobin.pnet.msen.com.grafix-net.com>,
>sysop@grafix-net.com wrote:

>> We need people to perform page layout including...
>> HTML and Web page creation.

><snip>
> 
>> DO NOT RESPOND VIA EMAIL.  Incomplete and email responses will 
>> be ignored.

>Tsk. Some people just don't get it, do they? Why on Earth would an outfit
>purporting to do WWW work want tearsheets instead of URLs? Sad...

>Lanny Chambers (creative@inlink.com)
>Creative Services, St. Louis, USA
>Visit the Hummingbird Page at:
><http://www.inlink.com/~creative/>

So maybe they are finding out whether prospective associates actually
have an ability to send printable product as well as screw around with
shareware programs and make kewl gifs.
And your motive for the disparaging remark is...........?

Lanny Chambers wrote:
> 
> 
> > DO NOT RESPOND VIA EMAIL.  Incomplete and email responses will
> > be ignored.
> 
> Tsk. Some people just don't get it, do they? Why on Earth would an outfit
> purporting to do WWW work want tearsheets instead of URLs? Sad...
> 

AGREED!

have you had anyone report troubles with your web site? I'm using
Netscape 2.0 and every button on your first page cause netscape to crash
and core dump????
-- 
David Rein Henderson	President			P[713] 363-7997
Zero Gravity Inc.	http://zerogravity.harc.edu	F[713] 363-7923
	4800 Research Forest Drive	3D Computer Animation & Graphics
	The Woodlands, Texas 77381	Film~Video~Print~Multi-Media

grafix1@sover.net wrote:
> 
> creative@inlink.com (Lanny Chambers) wrote:
> 
> >In article
> ><NEWTNews.5034.823489224.DROBIN@drobin.pnet.msen.com.grafix-net.com>,
> >sysop@grafix-net.com wrote:
> 
> >> We need people to perform page layout including...
> >> HTML and Web page creation.
> 
> ><snip>
> >
> >> DO NOT RESPOND VIA EMAIL.  Incomplete and email responses will
> >> be ignored.
> 
> >Tsk. Some people just don't get it, do they? Why on Earth would an outfit
> >purporting to do WWW work want tearsheets instead of URLs? Sad...
> 
> >Lanny Chambers (creative@inlink.com)
> >Creative Services, St. Louis, USA
> >Visit the Hummingbird Page at:
> ><http://www.inlink.com/~creative/>
> 
> So maybe they are finding out whether prospective associates actually
> have an ability to send printable product as well as screw around with
> shareware programs and make kewl gifs.
> And your motive for the disparaging remark is...........?


I agree... the BEST Web page designers are publication designers. ANYONE 
can learn HTML and play with kewl pictures. It takes a designer to put 
it all together so that it most effectively communicates the message 
it's supposed to convey. It takes a lot more than an HTML program and 
PhotoShop to design a truly "hot" and effective Web page. So, the fact 
these folks ARE looking for printed examples ahows they know what to 
look for.

In article
<NEWTNews.5034.823489224.DROBIN@drobin.pnet.msen.com.grafix-net.com>,
sysop@grafix-net.com wrote:

The Grafix Network based in Lansing, Michigan is seeking 
qualified individuals to work on per job/freelance/contract 
basis.  

We need people to perform page layout including advertisements 
and publications, logo conversion and creation, full color 
prepress, rough free hand sketching and a host of other related 
tasks including HTML and Web page creation.  Communication and 
job assignments will be handled through the Interent and via 
our 12 line Internet BBS.

You DO NOT have to be an expert pre-press designer to qualify, 
however job assignments and commission levels will be 
comparable to an hourly rate at the performance level 
demonstrated. 

We are interested in individuals who can accept job orders and 
quickly carry them through to completion or near completion. 

In order to qualify you should have access to the following:

* Ability to transfer files over the Internet using email, FTP, 
  WWW, or our Windows BBS software.

* A computer with a modem (14.4 or greater & PC preferred)

If you have basic or advanced knowledge of digital graphic art 
and are interested in performing freelance work, assemble the 
following information:

  1. Your Name & current occupation

  2. Your internet email address.

  3. Related software you have access to (Pagemaker, Corel Draw 
     etc.) and are able to use.

  4. Your computer type including:

     a. Amount of RAM
     b. processor speed
     c. platform (MAC, PC etc.)
     d. Operating system.

  5. 2 samples of your work - Hard copy or files
      (advertisement, fliers, logo's etc.)

  6. Your postal mailing address.

Mail this info to:

    The Grafix Network - Freelance
    P.O. Box 25003
    Lansing, MI  48909

DO NOT RESPOND VIA EMAIL.  Incomplete and email responses will 
be ignored.  Selected individuals will be notified via U.S. 
postal service and internet email - with an offer letter.


Hi,
Look at address http://www.pi.net/~fblomsma/home.html

Greetings,
Fred Blomsma

Tim Speck (Grafx100@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: 
: I agree... the BEST Web page designers are publication designers. ANYONE 
: can learn HTML and play with kewl pictures. It takes a designer to put 
: it all together so that it most effectively communicates the message 
: it's supposed to convey. It takes a lot more than an HTML program and 
: PhotoShop to design a truly "hot" and effective Web page. So, the fact 
: these folks ARE looking for printed examples ahows they know what to 
: look for.

No! the best web page designers are on the web. Someone who knows how to 
design for 4 color printing will not know how to optimally create SMALL 
graphics, will have little or no experience with gif files, or with 
balancing the size vs quality issue of jpeg files _for display on your 
average monitor_ 

Designers with print ad experience will not utilize the full abilities of 
hypertext, they will give you something that looks like a print ad on a 
web page. - it will be slow to load, overburdened with large graphacs and 
generally unappealing to those of us who have seen good web design.

They also won't offer aimated gif's sounds, shockwave, 3-D or any of the 
"kewl" possibilites the webs multimedia nature offers.

Michael Knauf
One World Design
http://www.gate.net/~wolfman2/owd

Michael Knauf wrote:
> 
> Tim Speck (Grafx100@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> :
> : I agree... the BEST Web page designers are publication designers. ANYONE
> : can learn HTML and play with kewl pictures. It takes a designer to put
> : it all together so that it most effectively communicates the message
> : it's supposed to convey. It takes a lot more than an HTML program and
> : PhotoShop to design a truly "hot" and effective Web page. So, the fact
> : these folks ARE looking for printed examples ahows they know what to
> : look for.
> 
> No! the best web page designers are on the web. Someone who knows how to
> design for 4 color printing will not know how to optimally create SMALL
> graphics, will have little or no experience with gif files, or with
> balancing the size vs quality issue of jpeg files _for display on your
> average monitor_
> 
> Designers with print ad experience will not utilize the full abilities of
> hypertext, they will give you something that looks like a print ad on a
> web page. - it will be slow to load, overburdened with large graphacs and
> generally unappealing to those of us who have seen good web design.
> 
> They also won't offer aimated gif's sounds, shockwave, 3-D or any of the
> "kewl" possibilites the webs multimedia nature offers.
> 
> Michael Knauf
> One World Design
> http://www.gate.net/~wolfman2/owd

Now wait a minute! They are some of us that are proficient at both 
print and web page design.

A good designer needs skills in composition which are transferable 
between print and web pages. But a great designer also needs a 
technical knowledge about his/her medium.
-- 
Hey you!     Yeah you at the keyboard!
Be sure to check our my home page at
http://www.crl.com/~picciano

There's a chance you could win $1 million!!!
(okay, a very small chance)

Michael Knauf wrote:
> 
> Tim Speck (Grafx100@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> :
> : I agree... the BEST Web page designers are publication designers. ANYONE
> : can learn HTML and play with kewl pictures. It takes a designer to put
> : it all together so that it most effectively communicates the message
> : it's supposed to convey. It takes a lot more than an HTML program and
> : PhotoShop to design a truly "hot" and effective Web page. So, the fact
> : these folks ARE looking for printed examples ahows they know what to
> : look for.
> 
> No! the best web page designers are on the web. Someone who knows how to
> design for 4 color printing will not know how to optimally create SMALL
> graphics, will have little or no experience with gif files, or with
> balancing the size vs quality issue of jpeg files _for display on your
> average monitor_
> 
> Designers with print ad experience will not utilize the full abilities of
> hypertext, they will give you something that looks like a print ad on a
> web page. - it will be slow to load, overburdened with large graphacs and
> generally unappealing to those of us who have seen good web design.
> 
> They also won't offer aimated gif's sounds, shockwave, 3-D or any of the
> "kewl" possibilites the webs multimedia nature offers.
> 
> Michael Knauf
> One World Design
> http://www.gate.net/~wolfman2/owd

 Some good points Wolfman, I must agree with both views, however, in that if a Web designer has 
no graphic design sense he will most likely be ineffective on the web. If a publication designer 
has no web experience to back up his knowledge of layout then the graphic content could be too 
heavy for the limited bandwidth of the web. 

 I suggest that publication designers study web possibilities and HTML extensively before jumping 
on the web bandwagon, in order to get a better understanding of what this new media can do and 
what it has trouble with.

 Web designers better not expect to design my site without some design classes or experience with 
art, effective layout skills, and a desire to push the creative envelope.

Is this unreasonable? I don't think so. But that's my view. 

typhoto

Michael,

I just wanted to add that your website was a delight. I applaud your simple approach that doesn't 
overwhelm. The shockwave was especially nice. I loved the sound effects. If I had an award to 
give you would recieve it. Nice job.

typhoto

typhoto (typhoto@evansville.net) wrote:
: Michael Knauf wrote:
: > 
: > Tim Speck (Grafx100@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: > :
: 
:  I suggest that publication designers study web possibilities and HTML extensively before jumping 
: on the web bandwagon, in order to get a better understanding of what this new media can do and 
: what it has trouble with.
: 
:  Web designers better not expect to design my site without some design classes or experience with 
: art, effective layout skills, and a desire to push the creative envelope.



Amen again!  I meant no "slam" towards print biased designers, nor did I 
intend that one designer couldn't be proficient in both, but I'm still 
going to want to see previous work from a designer in the final medium, 
regardless.
(I do a lot of work for photographic output and optical enlargement onto 
duratrans... totally different than anything else - design is still 
design, but knowing the media makes the actual end product closer to the 
visualized ideal)

Michael

On 22 Feb 1996 16:51:51 GMT, wolfman2@gate.net (Michael Knauf) wrote:

>Tim Speck (Grafx100@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: 
>: I agree... the BEST Web page designers are publication designers. ANYONE 
>: can learn HTML and play with kewl pictures. It takes a designer to put 
>: it all together so that it most effectively communicates the message 
>: it's supposed to convey. It takes a lot more than an HTML program and 
>: PhotoShop to design a truly "hot" and effective Web page. So, the fact 
>: these folks ARE looking for printed examples ahows they know what to 
>: look for.
>
>No! the best web page designers are on the web. Someone who knows how to 
>design for 4 color printing will not know how to optimally create SMALL 
>graphics, will have little or no experience with gif files, or with 
>balancing the size vs quality issue of jpeg files _for display on your 
>average monitor_ 
>
>Designers with print ad experience will not utilize the full abilities of 
>hypertext, they will give you something that looks like a print ad on a 
>web page. - it will be slow to load, overburdened with large graphacs and 
>generally unappealing to those of us who have seen good web design.
>
>They also won't offer aimated gif's sounds, shockwave, 3-D or any of the 
>"kewl" possibilites the webs multimedia nature offers.
>
>Michael Knauf


Good Webdesigners are mostly people with experience as "paperdesigner"
who find this medium boring or who do not like it that what you see on
the screen is never what you get in print.

At the company were I work (webpublishing), all the graphic designers
have a background in 'paperdesign' or industrial design.

However, we don't use people who were specialized in DTP. Everybody
here has a lot of experience in photographic manipulation, not in
lay-out. Why? HTML doesn't allow too much on lay-out.

We try to make a user-friendly, comprehensive graphic interface,
because this is really important for large websites. After that, we
try to fit in the text as good as possible. Because pages should look
good on a 640*480 resolution there's most of the times not much place
to play with the lay-out.

Also, good webdesigners should know HTML very good. There's no point
in creating roughs on paper and in drawing programs (we use Corel a
lot for this) if the concept and lay-out can't be translated to HTML.

Another thing, 'paperdesigners' are mostly good with XPress or
Pagemaker and with Illustrator or Freehand. They can only do some
basic stuff in Photoshop and that's it. Webdesigners on the other hand
are mostly computergraphic maniacs who completely control Photoshop
with all the plugins, they play with 3D packages like 3D-Sudio,
Lightwave, Stratastudio, ..., they learn Director just for the fun of
it, and if there's any time left they search for the mysteries behind
Hot Java.

The thing is, most paperdesigners consider their work as a job, while
webdesigners (I like the word screendesigner more, its meaning is not
so narrow) take more pride in their work, they consider their job as a
hobby that went a lot further than they intended to.

Kristof Vandommele
	kvandommele@imagic.be
>

>
D-

Had to respond...just hadta. Don't you think you're generalizing a bit?
I agree with you both to a point. But I'm a "print" designer who can create
_extremeley_ small, optimal graphics, properly formatted for any monitor.
(On the other hand, I had a programming/systems management background
before I got into design).

I've had (friendly) arguments with other graphic designers who, come hell
or high water, are going to put that 150k jpeg image map in their page because
they think the design is more important that the medium.

I've had the same argument with my technical buddies, in reverse...though I have
to say the techy folks are more likely to let me, errrr..._move_ a few things around
on their web pages to tighten up a layout. (I've got one designer friend who 
believes every pixel is sacred.)

The best pages _I've_ seen have been designed by teams...a mix of strongly
design oriented and strongly technical people.

Just my two cents....
JCL

In article <4gi6v7$2776@news.gate.net>, wolfman2@gate.net (Michael Knauf) says:
>
>Tim Speck (Grafx100@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: 
>: I agree... the BEST Web page designers are publication designers. ANYONE 
>: can learn HTML and play with kewl pictures. It takes a designer to put 
>: it all together so that it most effectively communicates the message 
>: it's supposed to convey.

<deleted>

>No! the best web page designers are on the web. Someone who knows how to 
>design for 4 color printing will not know how to optimally create SMALL 
>graphics, will have little or no experience with gif files, or with 
>balancing the size vs quality issue of jpeg files _for display on your 
>average monitor_ 
>
>Designers with print ad experience will not utilize the full abilities of 
>hypertext, they will give you something that looks like a print ad on a 
>web page. - it will be slow to load, overburdened with large graphacs and 
>generally unappealing to those of us who have seen good web design.
>
<deleted>

kvandommele@imagic.be (Kristof Vandommele) wrote:
>On 22 Feb 1996 16:51:51 GMT, wolfman2@gate.net (Michael Knauf) wrote:
>
>Good Webdesigners are mostly people with experience as "paperdesigner"
>who find this medium boring or who do not like it that what you see on
>the screen is never what you get in print.
>
>At the company were I work (webpublishing), all the graphic designers
>have a background in 'paperdesign' or industrial design.
>
>However, we don't use people who were specialized in DTP. Everybody
>here has a lot of experience in photographic manipulation, not in
>lay-out. Why? HTML doesn't allow too much on lay-out.
>
>We try to make a user-friendly, comprehensive graphic interface,
>because this is really important for large websites. After that, we
>try to fit in the text as good as possible. Because pages should look
>good on a 640*480 resolution there's most of the times not much place
>to play with the lay-out.
>
>Also, good webdesigners should know HTML very good. There's no point
>in creating roughs on paper and in drawing programs (we use Corel a
>lot for this) if the concept and lay-out can't be translated to HTML.
>
>Another thing, 'paperdesigners' are mostly good with XPress or
>Pagemaker and with Illustrator or Freehand. They can only do some
>basic stuff in Photoshop and that's it. Webdesigners on the other hand
>are mostly computergraphic maniacs who completely control Photoshop
>with all the plugins, they play with 3D packages like 3D-Sudio,
>Lightwave, Stratastudio, ..., they learn Director just for the fun of
>it, and if there's any time left they search for the mysteries behind
>Hot Java.
>
>The thing is, most paperdesigners consider their work as a job, while
>webdesigners (I like the word screendesigner more, its meaning is not
>so narrow) take more pride in their work, they consider their job as a
>hobby that went a lot further than they intended to.

_________________________________________________________________

Kristof,
I'm sure you are a creative fellow but you do have to trash talk graphic designers 
to elevate yourself? Being a dastardly "paperdesigner" I have found what makes me an 
asset is my natural talent and my understanding of design methods and principles. 
Designing for a specific medium (paper or web) is just a technicality. The programs 
I know how to use have never made me a more creative person nor solved a design 
problem for me. When they make a plug-in for creativity and good design decisions, 
then you can rest assured that knowing a program really well is all it takes to be 
an effective designer. Until then, watch out, many of those talented paperdesigners 
who consider design their profession are learning the techniques of HTML and soon 
will be doing the best work on the web! (They probably already are)

Steve Parten

Michael Knauf (wolfman2@gate.net) wrote:
: Tim Speck (Grafx100@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: : 
: : I agree... the BEST Web page designers are publication designers. ANYONE 
: : can learn HTML and play with kewl pictures. It takes a designer to put 
: : it all together so that it most effectively communicates the message 
: : it's supposed to convey. It takes a lot more than an HTML program and 
: : PhotoShop to design a truly "hot" and effective Web page. So, the fact 
: : these folks ARE looking for printed examples ahows they know what to 
: : look for.

: No! the best web page designers are on the web. Someone who knows how to 
: design for 4 color printing will not know how to optimally create SMALL 
: graphics, will have little or no experience with gif files, or with 
: balancing the size vs quality issue of jpeg files _for display on your 
: average monitor_ 

: Designers with print ad experience will not utilize the full abilities of 
: hypertext, they will give you something that looks like a print ad on a 
: web page. - it will be slow to load, overburdened with large graphacs and 
: generally unappealing to those of us who have seen good web design.

: They also won't offer aimated gif's sounds, shockwave, 3-D or any of the 
: "kewl" possibilites the webs multimedia nature offers.

: Michael Knauf
: One World Design
: http://www.gate.net/~wolfman2/owd


Ever tried to open a WWW page with all this kewl stuff when you're using a
14.4 kps modem?  Ever looked at a kewl page with a 9600 baud modem and a
text-only browser?  I'd like to see more emphasis placed on ease-of-navigation
and some real content isntead of bzillions of QuickTime videos that take
10 minutes to load.  Gack!
-- 
=========================================================================
Those who are willing to sacrifice freedom in the name of security will
have neither.  - Benjamin Franklin

In article <4gi6v7$2776@news.gate.net>, wolfman2@gate.net (Michael Knauf) writes:
>Tim Speck (Grafx100@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: 
>: I agree... the BEST Web page designers are publication designers. ANYONE 
>: can learn HTML and play with kewl pictures. It takes a designer to put 
>: it all together so that it most effectively communicates the message 
>: it's supposed to convey. It takes a lot more than an HTML program and 
>: PhotoShop to design a truly "hot" and effective Web page. So, the fact 
>: these folks ARE looking for printed examples ahows they know what to 
>: look for.
>
>No! the best web page designers are on the web. Someone who knows how to 
>design for 4 color printing will not know how to optimally create SMALL 
>graphics, will have little or no experience with gif files, or with 
>balancing the size vs quality issue of jpeg files _for display on your 
>average monitor_ 
>
>Designers with print ad experience will not utilize the full abilities of 
>hypertext, they will give you something that looks like a print ad on a 
>web page. - it will be slow to load, overburdened with large graphacs and 
>generally unappealing to those of us who have seen good web design.
>
>They also won't offer aimated gif's sounds, shockwave, 3-D or any of the 
>"kewl" possibilites the webs multimedia nature offers.
>
>Michael Knauf
>One World Design
>http://www.gate.net/~wolfman2/owd

I concur.
Later,
Chris.

Dana L. Cadman (cadman@gdls.com) wrote:
: 
: Ever tried to open a WWW page with all this kewl stuff when you're using a
: 14.4 kps modem?  Ever looked at a kewl page with a 9600 baud modem and a
: text-only browser?  I'd like to see more emphasis placed on ease-of-navigation
: and some real content isntead of bzillions of QuickTime videos that take
: 10 minutes to load.  Gack!
: -- 

which is why we download our pages at 14.4, and look at them with a 256 
color monitor, on a pc, and on a mac, in netscape, IE, AOL (ick) and 
anything else we can put our hands on... The message here is the WWW is a 
screwy place, and designers on the web need to know what they can, and 
cannot do, and how to push the envelope

THis thread began with an ad for designers for the WWW that said "dont 
send url's, send printed pieces" I still think that'll get them the wrong 
designer...

Michael

On Fri, 23 Feb 1996 18:53:04 GMT, Steve Parten <parten_st@leg.wa.gov>
wrote:

>
>Kristof,
>I'm sure you are a creative fellow but you do have to trash talk graphic designers 
>to elevate yourself? Being a dastardly "paperdesigner" I have found what makes me an 
>asset is my natural talent and my understanding of design methods and principles. 
>Designing for a specific medium (paper or web) is just a technicality. The programs 
>I know how to use have never made me a more creative person nor solved a design 
>problem for me. When they make a plug-in for creativity and good design decisions, 
>then you can rest assured that knowing a program really well is all it takes to be 
>an effective designer. Until then, watch out, many of those talented paperdesigners 
>who consider design their profession are learning the techniques of HTML and soon 
>will be doing the best work on the web! (They probably already are)
>
>Steve Parten
>
 Steve,

I wrote "most paperdesigners", not "all paperdesigners".
But, if you like it or not, most of them don't know their programs. So
how can anybody do a great job if you don't master your tools.

C YA

Kristof Vandommele

> I wrote "most paperdesigners", not "all paperdesigners".
> But, if you like it or not, most of them don't know their programs. So
> how can anybody do a great job if you don't master your tools.
> 
> C YA
> 
> Kristof Vandommele

Dear Kristoff Vandommele
MOST PAPERDESIGNERS!!!???
Are you sure you're being general enough?
Put up your statististics, sunshine, or Shut Up.

Are you trying to find that right person to solve your design problem or WEB need?  Do 
you need a graphic artist for an upcoming project?  If so, find them fast in The Graphix 
Exchange, the WEB's premier resource directory of visual art professionals. 

You can browse our database of over 600 artists from around the world.  Many artists 
have links to their home pages so you can see samples of their work.  Others have 
included art samples in our gallery (http://www.gx.com/tgx/Gallery.html).  Every artist 
listed can be e-mailed directly from our site. You can find the artist your looking for with 
our search page or browse through our database alphabetically.

If you want to see even more samples, purchase the CD ROM version of The Graphix 
Exchange for only $19.95.  This CD ROM for Macintosh features 75 of our members and 
many art samples and Quicktime clips

The Graphix Exchange is a grass-roots effort of independent artists from around the 
planet.  Our aim is to centralize an area for potential clients like yourself to find talent 
quickly and easily.  Membership is free and so is our service.  Check us out.  Point 
Survey  awarded The Graphix Exchange as one of the Top 5% of sites on the WEB!

-renoir@gx.com
The Graphix Exchange
http://www.gx.com/tgx

In article <31334832.C05@gx.com>, Robert Bauer <renoir@gx.com> says:
>
>Are you trying to find that right person to solve your design problem or WEB need?  Do 
>you need a graphic artist for an upcoming project?  If so, find them fast in The Graphix 
>Exchange, the WEB's premier resource directory of visual art professionals. 
>
>You can browse our database of over 600 artists from around the world. Many artists 
>have links to their home pages so you can see samples of their work.  Others have 
>included art samples in our gallery (http://www.gx.com/tgx/Gallery.html).  Every artist 
>listed can be e-mailed directly from our site. You can find the artist your looking for with 
>our search page or browse through our database alphabetically.

	Gallery has exactly four links.  Your search data base offers only mailto and 
no links to contributors sites.  Yet you ask for site links on the form.  Why throw away
information that you have requested.

	And the four you have "showcased" are conventional artists with scanners.
Why is that?  The world has progressed far beyond that even with Photoshop.  Browse
the following and see.

 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)

---------------------------------------------------------------
              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
          Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
 http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)
  One finger is all a real American needs to deal with the government.
It takes a village idiot and other truths children have already learned.

I'd like to throw my thoughts into the ring here as well. Personally, I 
fit into the Paper Designer category, for that is where my living is 
earned. Actually, fabric is the final medium, being a t-shirt artist. It 
comes from natural talent and was not not learned in any school. There 
was an ad that said, "The best software is still your brain". Good 
design is good design. Most designers have good design sense. At least 
if they have it if they are making their living at it. Otherwise they'd 
go broke. It doesn't take a degree in physics or anything else to figure 
out what it takes to design a good web page. Stick to the fundamentals 
of design and the *limitations of the medium*, and you're set. When all 
is said and done, good paper, t-shirt, or web design is in the eyes of 
the beholder.

Mike Lawless
Lawless Designs
http://www.valleynet.com/~raceart
raceart@valleynet.com