🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <47204c6a$0$4363$9b4e6d93@newsspool4.arcor-online.net>,
Ingo R. Homann <ihomann_spam@web.de> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Martin Gregorie wrote:
> >> I think you may be right that it's early adolescence. Almost every 
> >> single one of those female programmers of the early and middle 60s, 
> >> after all, must have been planning to do something else with their 
> >> lives when they were 13.
> >>
> > I think its much earlier than that. Conditioning starts at least with 
> > toddlers or earlier: when boys are given cars and girls are given dolls.
> 
> You are right that there may be very subtle means of conditioning.
> 
> But an interesting point is that if you give cars *and* dolls both to 
> boys *and* girls, the probability is high that the boy chooses a car and 
> the girl does not.

I wouldn't presume to disagree with the experiences of parents,
not being one.  But it seems to me that boys and girls are
treated differently from the moment of birth, by pretty much
everyone they encounter, so I don't think one can rule out subtle
social conditioning.  I'm not even sure that parents who *think*
they're being gender-neutral are succeeding -- it may be more
difficult than one might think.  Pure speculation on my part!

One of the few things I remember from a long-ago course taught
by an anthropology professor:  It's hard to know what's nature
and what's nurture, because "you can't really do the experiments."
(I'm not sure he was 100% right about that, but it does seem
difficult to design experiments that would provide convincing
evidence one way or another.)

> Never seen a father trying to play with cars with his daughter? After a 
> short time, the father is the only one who plays with the car. ;-)
> 
> Not to misunderstand me: I do not think that it is *desirable* to 
> educate or 'conditionate' children to certain gender-specific behaviour. 
> But I think that on the other hand it is not helpful to deny that there 
> are 'natural' differences. If you deny them (because "it cannot be true 
> what should not be true"), you will never be able to overcome 
> discrimintaion.

Agreed that it's not a good idea to reach the conclusion first and
then collect evidence / design experiments ....

> I always must smile when I see the many projects that exist in germany 
> since many, many years, that try to integrate and motivate girls for 
> technical jobs. A reporter comes and takes a photo of a few girls who 
> forces themselves to smile into the camera. They do not seem to be 
> interested at all although they really struggle to be interested because 
> "they are girls and girls must be as interested in technical things just 
> as boys".
> 
> The fact is: Although girls are always encouraged to chose technical 
> jobs, they just don't do it. What does this tell us?

Not much, in my opinion!  maybe it really *is* something about our
"small, smooth brains", maybe it's subtle social conditioning, maybe
it's prejudice (not necessarily conscious) ....  <shrug>

-- 
B. L. Massingill
ObDisclaimer:  I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.