🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <4582@optima.cs.arizona.edu> gudeman@cs.arizona.edu (David Gudeman) writes:

   In article  <GATELEY.91Jun25134644@gefion.rice.edu> John Gateley writes:
   ]
   ]I mean that syntax is relatively unimportant.

   How can you say that syntax is unimportant when such a huge percentage
   of people who try lisp or scheme are turned off by the syntax?  It is
   certainly important to them.  It is a hindrance to the goal of getting
   more people to use the language, and it is a distraction for many
   people trying to use the language.  Just because it isn't a problem
   for _you_ doesn't mean that it isn't a problem.

Let me try and explain what I mean :^) and at the same time reinforce
what a couple of later posts have already said. Many people don't like
Lisp/Scheme true, but to blame it all or even majorly on the syntax is
unfair. There are many features which require a different mindset:
recursion instead of loops, first class functions, dynamic typing,
macros etc. etc. etc. Among all these new features, I think the
problem of learning an extremely simple syntax is the smallest of the
challenge. The syntax is very regular, has very few special
characters, and can be learned quickly. With a small amount of
practice (and EVERY language requires a small amount, or more) the
programs become understand, and those nasty little parens cease to be
nasty.

   Any language feature that is unpalatable to large numbers of people is
   a misfeature.  And calling it "relatively unimportant" isn't going to
   make it any less important to the people who are bothered by it.  If
   you don't think a lot of people are seriously bothered by lisp syntax
   then you are mistaken.

I bet that all the people who are bothered by it are much more
bothered by some of the other features (which are semantic features).
And, a lot of the problem here is being faced with something "new".
For example, I put off learning emacs for the longest time, just
because I hate learning new editors. Different commands, different
styles etc. But, once I did, I really enjoyed it. Similarly
Scheme/Lisp is something new to most people, and all it takes are a
couple of changes to make them frustrated and go back to the old way
of doing it.

   By the way, fancy editors may make it easier to balance parens when
   writing lisp, but they don't help much in reading it.

I disagree VERY much with this statement. I do most of my code reading
on a terminal in an emacs buffer so that I can use all the commands
when needed. I very rarely print out Scheme code and look at it on
paper.

John
gateley@rice.edu
--
"I've thought the thoughts of little children and the thoughts of men
 I've thought the thoughts of stupid people who have never been
 so much in love as they should be and got confused too easily
 to fall in love again." The Residents and Renaldo and the Loaf