🚀 go-pugleaf

wcs>.	Remember that 1st-year students, even CS students, are studying
wcs>.	more than just CS100, and, if possible, they should have *some*
wcs>.	usable programming knowledge as soon as possible.  While it's
wcs>.	probably a Bad Thing to expose them to BASIC, whatever
wcs>.	functional language you teach them had better be adequate for
wcs>.	doing chemistry and physics homework, numerical integration for
wcs>.	calculus, statistics for their psych classes, and the like.

>Good point, Bill.  This is generally the point I was trying to make.

Wrong Wrong Wrong.
	CS1 courses exist to teach people about computer science. They are
not in general service courses for other departments. Here we run 3 first 
year courses. One is for computer scientists, one is for other scientists,
one is for Arts students. ( By the way we teach the other scientists 
Common LISP as well as Pascal. )


>Incidentally, I don't happen to feel that's a good thing.  It would be
>nice if a physicist (for example) could stick primarily to physics and
>not have to learn a second discipline (computer science).  Hopefully,
>the legacy of our generation of programmers will be a considerable
>simplification in computer user interfaces.

wcs.> And somewhere along the lines, engineering students will *have* to
wcs.> learn Fortran, if only so they can do interesting *engineering*
wcs.> research without having to rewrite EISPAK and its hench-programs.

nevin1>   And engineers DO NOT have to learn FORTRAN!!

>On which planet?  Your statement is rhetorical and doesn't have practical
>value.  I think you would be hard pressed to find an engineering curriculum
>which didn't require FORTRAN (with the possible exception of Computer Science,
>which you may or may not count as engineering).


Right Right Right. Engineering courses can teach FORTRAN after we ( computer
science ) have taught them HOW TO PROGRAM. You can teach anyone to ride a 
bike and after that they can ride any bike. It's just that using a bike with
square wheels isn't very good for teaching.
Computer Science most certainly IS NOT engineering. If anything it's a 
branch of mathematics.

pcm> [ ... ]  I have just changed jobs.  In no interview was I asked
pcm> whether I knew ML; in every interview I was asked if I knew C.

>I've been generally amused at the response I've gotten to this statement.
>As a footnote, I'll add that I used to list ML on my resume as one of the 
>programming languages I know.  I finally removed it because (1) nobody
>had ever heard of it, and (2) when I explained what it was, they didn't
>care.

If they don't care then they ain't worth working for!

>...and smaller companies can't afford to train you how to program in C,
>so you probably won't get a job there unless you know C.

But if you know HOW TO PROGRAM then it doesn't matter if you know C ( or any
other language for that matter ). All you need is the manual and a language
definition.


nevin1> Learn the good programming habits first; then pick up all the 'fad'
nevin1> languages.  It will pay off a lot better in the end.

>Now let me get this straight.  Fortran, which has been around since about
>1950, and C, which is the implementation language for the defacto industry
>standard operating system and about a jillion utilities and applications 
>programs, these are the fad languages, right?

>Incidentally, the implication here is that you can't learn 'good programming
>habits' in C.  Bullshit.

You can learn 'good programming habits' in any language providing they're 
taught well. It just happens that some languages are better for teaching 
them in ( eg ML, LISP, Modula-2 ) than languages that let you pull all sorts
of nasty tricks. Would you teach someone to drive in a Formula 1 racing
car ? Or a tank ?

>Lucky for me, though, I know ML and Prolog, so if I ever have to your
>planet, I'll be able to get a job ;-).

>Phil Miller

Stay off my planet - I like it the way it is!

Anthony Cunningham.

'I think of Sarah. The rest is easy.'
-- 

Anthony Cunningham, Dept of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh.

             ARPA:  tjc%ed.ecsvax@ucl-cs.arpa
             UUCP:  ...!{decvax,ihnp4,seismo}!mcvax!ukc!ecsvax!tjc
             JANET: tjc@uk.ac.ed.ecsvax

I think of Sarah. The rest is easy.