🚀 go-pugleaf

Syntax is less important than semantics, though of course a clean,
simple syntax is necessary for a language programmers actually like.
(ALPAL: A Language Programmers Actually Like. Naaah, too pretentious.)

For the moment, general principles are more important than specifics.

There should be some number of macro (preprocessing) levels to handle
trivial syntactic issues. I don't know what system would be best, or
if there even is a best system.

In article <8475@wpi.wpi.edu> jhallen@wpi.wpi.edu (Joseph H Allen) writes:
  [ lots of suggestions ]

1, 2, 3. No semicolons. End-of-line comments. Block structure indicated
         by indentation.

These all relate to the syntax of simple statements and control
structures. The most important general issue is whether structures
should be explicitly terminated. The only advantage of C-ish failure to
terminate is that single-statement structures are slightly shorter; and
there are lots of syntactic disadvantages. Is there anyone out there who
really wouldn't like loop ... end/endloop/pool, etc.?

You propose letting indentation determine structure, and using newlines
as statement terminators. It's easy to convert between this and a more
traditional syntax; in fact, it would be nice to have a macro facility
good enough to do the job. Anyway, I favor a syntax that doesn't depend
on lines or indentation: otherwise it's too easy to make syntax errors.
A line-based syntax also feels very dirty: there are exceptions for
multiple statements on a line, exceptions for single-statement
structures, etc.

4. Overloadable and definable operators

This is another syntax issue. The language MUST provide an unambiguous
syntax for everything. Fortran-90 is the only overloading language I
know that does this well. Overloading just means ambiguous abbreviation,
and definable operators are just a more convenient syntax for certain 
functions. I think overloading should be just kept in mind until 
function calls and any object-oriented facilities are worked out.

5. All characters allowed in symbols.

Would you really want to read a program with ?)*[! as an identifier?
I wouldn't mind a macro facility that could handle this, or the ability
to partition the character set the way you want. However, the basic
language must have some namespace control to do any parsing at all.
Also, this language MUST be interoperable with other languages to be
useful.

The issue of defining your own character set relates strongly to the
syntactic argument about overloading. Never force a reader to learn a
new language.

6. C-like initialization power.

Well, okay. Take it for granted that declarations and definitions will
be at least as powerful as in C.

7. int **foo[] becoming [] * * int foo

Yeah. C would be cleaner if all the ``type constructants'' had a single
syntax. This needs to be considered in much more detail to see what
people would like to use. Perhaps there's a simple, readable, consistent
way to provide everything in both prefix and postfix form; then nobody
can complain.

8. Eliminate arrays in favor of pointers and macros.

Say what? You need some way to express the concept of a contiguous
region of memory. That's what arrays are for. How do pointers cleanly
express multidimensional arrays? The language should know something
about arrays, even if just for efficiency.

9. Constants: $hex, decimal, %binary, 'c', 'abc'

This is again a matter of taste; we'll see what people like. Many
different forms of constants can be provided without hurting simplicity
or readability. I don't agree with the combined syntax for strings and
characters: what do you do with single-character strings? The language
shouldn't have to know about strings; Pascal and Ada deal with strings
poorly. (C's problem is that there isn't a good enough syntax to easily
interface the language with different string-storage techniques.) I also
disagree with the idea of leaving out octal: finding a better syntax is
a good idea but there's no reason to take the feature away.

10. Standard operators.

This is, again, something that must be considered in much greater
detail to get right. (Yes, I agree that @ is a much more logical symbol
than * for indirection.) For the moment let's stick to general issues:
You're right that there should be Algol 68C-like assignments that relate
to a = b and a op= b the same way that a++ relates to ++a.

As for =/== vs. :=/= vs. your :=/== vs. statements-ain't-expressions =/=
vs. =/.EQ. vs. ... : I dunno. When I'm coding on paper I alternate
between paper-only left-arrow/= and C's =/==. On the screen I've begun
using preprocessors that can handle my terminal's extended characters.
As many writers have observed, the problem is balancing paper tradition
with ASCII's rather inexpressive character set.

11, 12. BCPL-like statements returning values.

Yes, of course. C's restriction that you can't do something like
a = {if (b == c) 2; else 3; } is purely annoying. At the very least,
the language should solve this the way that GNU's C compiler does.

13. Declarations anywhere.

Yeah.

14. Control flow statements, control structures: [ various ]

I have some rather heretical thoughts on this subject. I'll make them
clear in another message. (Remember that this isn't Ada. Given an
infinite loop ... endloop, if, and break, you don't need to provide
a terminating loop as a basic construct. Define it instead as a standard
macro. Ada's infinite variety of control structures is awful.)

15. Structure and code generation rules: Variables are in memory in the
    order of declaration.

Yeah. I very much want more control over stack allocation and control
flow than in C. This is not dealt with by any current language and needs
a lot of thought. One idea I've been considering is replacing function
types with statement types. This makes setjmp/longjmp, multiple function
entry points, and various other techniques much cleaner. The problem is,
once again, how and when to allocate stack variables.

I think two goals along these lines are (simpler:) that the language
support varargs (and varargs passing!) cleanly, and (harder, assuming
both a good exception mechanism and OS-generated timer exceptions:)
that the language support enough stack control and longjmp control
that a programmer can build a portable threads library. Note that a
truly working setjmp/longjmp would deal with register variables
correctly; this is probably impossible without OS and hardware support
for a ``register storage vector'' indicating storage locations for all
register variables. It's certainly something to think about...

You mention that structures can disappear in favor of typedef and blocks.
To me it doesn't look like you're simplifying anything; and it's a bad
idea to confuse statement blocks with structure blocks.

Unions can and should be reorderable. union { int a; float b; } and
union { float b; int a; } must, of course, be compatible---except that
in C they'd be initialized differently. (I hope you don't mind unions?)

16. Basic types: int bits, uint bits

I disagree. The basic types should be those types that the machine can
handle quickly. The language must be efficient! It's perfectly fine to
have a standard notation for ``a type long enough to handle N bits'' or
``how many bits are in type X?'' but the language should not make
restrictions on the size of basic types.

(Then again, every case in which portability takes second place to
efficiency must be carefully considered and well documented. Two issues
along these lines are bit sizes and the semantics of mod. As I feel very
strongly that the second should be portable, I shouldn't assume that
nobody feels the same way about the first. Then again, wouldn't a
standard notation for your ``int 8'' be enough?)

What about characters? What about floating-point types, which many
machines support better than ints? What about Ada-like fixed-point
types?

ANSI C messed up in its restrictions on void. void should mean a 0-bit
integer, aligned so that any pointer type can be safely converted back
and forth to void *. So dereferencing a void always produces 0;
sizeof(void) is 0; and so on.

I agree with C's philosophy of only allowing bit packing inside
structures. Other packing methods would really mangle the concept of
pointers.

17. const, inline, register, macro, op LEFT RIGHT RETURN

Interesting idea, the last one. The basic function call syntax should be
what the most people like; if there's a clean way to integrate (say) C's
functions, Forth's statements, and Lisp's whatevers, let's do it.

It would be wonderful to have a way to express more complex data flow
than algebraic expressions and single-type function calls. Unfortunately,
I don't know any good syntax or semantics for data flow. (This is NOT
going to become a so-called ``functional'' language, thank you.) Data
flow is just a convenient way to express temporary (register) variables;
whenever I use an expression twice I wonder if there's some natural
``teeing'' extension to C's ``piping'' notation that would simplify my
code.

18. Automatic conversion.

Yeah. Is it inconsistent how C really mangles the representation when you
convert from int to float while it (typically) doesn't change it at all
when you convert from int * to void *? I'm not sure. It may not be wise
to integrate casts with user-defined conversion functions, as the former
are implementation-dependent while the latter should not be.

19. User-defined precedence.

This is yet another syntactic preprocessing problem. Remember that the
language should be readable!

20. Parameter passing: [ various ideas ]

This has to be dealt with very carefully. I like C's solution: it's clean
while allowing every trick Ada can do. A general principle here (which
you appear to disagree with) is that the form of a function call can
make clear the fact that a variable is not modified.

21. Classes equal structures. Inheritance is just including one structure
    in another. Function arguments are really structures.

This is the kind of idea that I'm looking for. Object-oriented
programming can be very clean given a sufficiently powerful syntax
and semantics for function pointers and structures. Your ``inherit''
keyword is beautiful.

Function arguments being structures: This could be useful if it's
combined with a simple way to deal with the program stack.

Default structure values upon creation: This brings up the issue of
whether there should be a way to call an initialization function the
first time a function is called (as in Modula-2, Fortran-90, and a few
other obsolete [1/2 :-)] languages). I don't think there's any point:
all related ``features'' can be much more cleanly implemented by
combining function pointers with the more usual initializations, or
by keeping an appropriate local variable. (Those are the two methods
used in Modula-2 compilers: the point is that if they're easily
implemented with simpler features, they should be. Modularity.)

> 		- Member functions are indicated in function declarations.
> 		  There should be another type qualifyer which indicates a
> 		  function gets a pointer to the structure and all members of
> 		  that structure look like local variables to the function.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

22. Named arguments.

Yeah. This is one of Ada's few good features. The syntax is a bit of a
problem, but I'm sure it can be worked out.

> There's much, much more to do

No duh.

> The general goal
> is to make it both one step above assembly language and completely extendable.

And modular. And clean. And robust. And likable, even fun to use!

---Dan