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eturn-Path: T6YXN2@IER0VM.UUCP
Julian-Date: 56
Date-Received: Wed, 25 Feb 87 10:23:54 CST
Date-Posted: Wed Feb 25 10:24:25 CST 1987
Sender: root@usndvax.ARPA (root)
Reply-To: T6YXN2@IER0VM.UUCP
Followup-To: net.wobegon
Errors-To: unix-wizards@BRL.ARPA
Flames-To: /dev/null
Organization: Cow Systems Applications Network Devices Research, Inc.
Real-Organization: Cash-Flow Computers, Inc.
Actual-Organization: University of Southern North Dakota
Part-Time-Organization: A & P Grocery, Hoople
Last-Logged-In: Thu Feb 12 11:11:09 on ttyi06
Full-Name: Thomas G. Yoxon, II
Job-Title: Professional Student
Shoe-Size: 10 1/2
US-Mail-Address: PO Box 11, Lonesome, ND
Car-License-Plate: HAC K3R
Drivers-License-Number: M771092
Social-Security-Number: 499-71-3006
Office-Extension: x2-3579
Home-Phone: (701) 555-1212
Calling-Card-Number: 5491
Weather: Partly Cloudy, Clearing Friday
Phase-Of-Moon: New
Favorite-Color: Blue
Capital-Of-Assyria: Nineveh
Cuteness-Quotient: 165 *grin*

In article <6661@alice.uUCp>, mvs@alice.UUCP writes:
>I'm experiencing some problems with the UNIX* electronic
>mail system.  I hope somebody on the net can help me!
>Some mail items that I send seem to get corrupted in
>very strange ways.  Often many lines of what appears
>to be debugging or logging information find their
>way to the beginning of my mail item!  I'm pretty sure
>that this isn't happening on my machine.  Example:
>
>	% mail alice!mvs
>	hello
>	.
>	% mail
>	1 messages
>	From alice!mvs Thu Feb 19 12:23:45 1987
>	hello
>
>	?dq
>	%
>
>If I send the same mail item to a friend at another site
>he receives something quite different!  Lines of the form
>
>	Received: by xxx.yyy.UUCP (4.12/4.7)
>		id AA12424; Mon, 16 Feb 87 14:09:06 est
>
>are often added.  I've omitted the names as to not embarass
>the people at that site (Hello Laura!).  Surely these should be
>written to a log file and NOT into my mail item!  Often the
>"From" line gets horribly mutilated.  '%' signs crop up, which
>suggests to me that someone is screwing up a printf somewhere.
>Some of the output looks like what happens when I printf bad
>pointers!  Occaisonally a greater-than-sign '>' is prepended
>to a line in the body of the message, and sometimes the top
>of the item gets completely scrunted, particalularly my chess games.
>Can anyone help me pinpoint the problem.  I wouldn't want to
>go screaming to the system administrator if it wasn't his fault!
>
>Also my mail sometimes goes on the road for a couple of days.
>I've sent mail to a friend down the corridor and judging from the
>baggage tags it has been holidaying at some other machines?  Where
>exactly is "seismo", it doesn't seem to be on my floor.  Who is
>"mc" and where is his vax?  Maybe it's down in the comp center?
>Aren't there maps of these things?
>
>Please post your answers for obvious reasons!
>
>_-_-_-_-Mark

The following is a pre-recorded message from Thomas G. Yoxon, II: 
I have received your message of Wed Feb 25 01:55:51 CST 1987 correctly.
I am currently out of town.  I will not be reading my mail until I get
back.  I will be back sometime on Thursday February 19.

This is the only message you will receive.

In article <6661@alice.uUCp>, mvs@alice.UUCP writes:
> Lines of the form
> 
> 	Received: by xxx.yyy.UUCP (4.12/4.7)
> 		id AA12424; Mon, 16 Feb 87 14:09:06 est
> 
> are often added.  I've omitted the names as to not embarass
> the people at that site (Hello Laura!).  Surely these should be
> written to a log file and NOT into my mail item!

     The received header lines are added by every machine that
gets the mail.  You machine probably puts one in the message you
sent to yourself, but the mail program (the "user agent", as
opposed to the "delivery agent") doesn't show them to you.

     They should not be put in a log file.  The present method has
enough information to trace exactly where and when a mail message
was routed.  If it gets lost, it can be important to see that this
information does not get separated from the mail itself.  That's
why its included in the header lines.

> Often the "From" line gets horribly mutilated.  '%' signs crop
> up, which suggests to me that someone is screwing up a printf
> somewhere.  Some of the output looks like what happens when I
> printf bad pointers!

     In the internet (like ARPA, CSNET, BITNET) world, addresses
are of the form "mvs@alice".  There can be only one "@" in the
address.  The % is a sleaze that is used when a mailer really
wants to have two @ symbols, but the rules only allow one.

> Occaisonally a greater-than-sign '>' is prepended to a line in
> the body of the message, and sometimes the top of the item gets
> completely scrunted, particalularly my chess games.

     Many mail messages are held in the same file.  To distinguish
them, the mailers look for the header lines.  (Usually, they look
in particular for a line of the form

     	  From {address} at {time}

but others are in use.)  If you have a line in your message that
looks too much like this, it could mess up a mailer.  Thus, the
delivery agents (programs responsible for passing mail around to
different machines) put a ">" in front of these lines.  This keeps
the mail user agents (the programs that humans use to display
mail) from being fooled.

> Can anyone help me pinpoint the problem.  I wouldn't want to
> go screaming to the system administrator if it wasn't his fault!

It's not your system administrators fault.  In fact, it's nobody's
fault.  It's supposed to work this way.

> Where exactly is "seismo", it doesn't seem to be on my floor.
> Who is "mc" and where is his vax?

     Seismo is a machine (sun-3, I think) at the Center for
Seismic Studies in Washington, DC.  Basically Grand Central
Station for electronic communications on the east coast.  Almost
everything of any real interest goes through there.

     Mcvax is a VAX-11/750 in Amsterdam.  Much the same sort of
service as seismo.  Mcvax is responsible for all of the netnews
distribution in Europe.

     Both of these machines are well-connected to many different
networks.  They do a great service to the rest of us by acting as
gateway machines.  (Gateways are systems that pass messages back
and forth between different networks.)
 
> Aren't there maps of these things?

     Yes, there are.  They're published every month on the Usenet
news system, in the group "mod.map".  Most of the information is
presented in a somewhat cryptic form.  It's intended for the use
of software that routes mail automatically, so you never have to
look at the maps.

-- 
	David S. Hayes, The Merlin of Avalon
	PhoneNet:	(202) 694-6900
	ARPA:		merlin%hqda-ai.uucp@brl.arpa
	UUCP:		...!seismo!sundc!hqda-ai!merlin

+-----<6661@alice.uUCp>--- mvs@alice.UUCP -----
| I'm experiencing some problems with the UNIX* electronic mail system.
| Often many lines of what appears to be debugging or logging information
| find their way to the beginning of my mail item!
| Lines of the form
| 	Received: by xxx.yyy.UUCP (4.12/4.7)
| 		id AA12424; Mon, 16 Feb 87 14:09:06 est
| are often added.  Surely these should be written to a log file...
+----------------------------------------------

How easy it is to become acustomed to this annoyance!  Is there an RFC out
there somewhere which states that each site which handles a mail message
MUST put this crap in?  Right now my mailbox has 3 messages in it, 120
lines total.  Of this, there are 12 lines of 'real' information, that is,
the stuff actually written by the authors!  The first message has 23 lines
of Received: stuff, 4 >From/>From:/From lines, and 4 lines of 'text'.  Most
of this mail message doesn't really matter to me.  Sure, if I'm having
troubles getting mail to/from somewhere these lines help pinpoint mailer
fubars, but this trace info should be the EXCEPTION, not the RULE.

+---
| "From" line gets horribly mutilated.  '%' signs crop up, which ...
| Occaisonally a greater-than-sign '>' is prepended to a line in the body
+---

  The From line gets chomped by some mailers because they insist
(wrongly or rightly) on adding themselves to the from address.

'%' signs are a kludge used in forwarding mail between Arpanet and UUCP

The > is prepended on lines which begin with the word "From".  This is
because some mailers think that a message starts with the word 'From',
and since this 'From' is not the beginning of an article, it gets changed.
It really should be changed back...

+---
| Also my mail sometimes goes on the road for a couple of days.
| I've sent mail to a friend down the corridor and judging from the
| baggage tags it has been holidaying at some other machines?  Where
| exactly is "seismo", it doesn't seem to be on my floor.  Who is
| "mc" and where is his vax?  Maybe it's down in the comp center?
| Aren't there maps of these things?
+---

If your internal mail ('down the corridor') is being routed through
seismo, mcvax,  et al,  then you *really should* talk to your
system manager.  That's like going from Chicago to Milwaukee by way of
San Fransisco or Boston.  Nice places to visit, but one heck of a
commute!

On the map picture I have (from mod.map newsgroup), seismo is in Maryland,
mcvax is 'somewhere northeast' of Maine.

	John

|How easy it is to become acustomed to this annoyance!  Is there an RFC out
|there somewhere which states that each site which handles a mail message
|MUST put this crap in?  Right now my mailbox has 3 messages in it, 120
|lines total.  Of this, there are 12 lines of 'real' information, that is,
|the stuff actually written by the authors!  The first message has 23 lines
|of Received: stuff, 4 >From/>From:/From lines, and 4 lines of 'text'.  Most
|of this mail message doesn't really matter to me.  Sure, if I'm having
|troubles getting mail to/from somewhere these lines help pinpoint mailer
|fubars, but this trace info should be the EXCEPTION, not the RULE.

I don't know what mail interface you are using, but both Mail and MH
allow such headers to be supressed in the display.  I never see these
lines unless I read the raw mail file.  Ask a mail guru how to set up
your mail environment.

	Ken