🚀 go-pugleaf

"Roger" <roger.nospam@fan.net> wrote in message
news:3bd5cdbe.11722152@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> Email servers use these black-hole lists to stop spam.
>
> The only clients I've found for PC users include, EzMTS.ORG and
> SpamEaster Pro. These include RBL, RSS, & DUL.
>
> MAPS RBL, & RSS real-time black-hole list functions are effective,
> especially when combined with MAPS DUL.

<snip>

I'd prefer a choice in which blacklist to use. I don't believe MAPS to be
all that effective anymore since they have removed some big-time spammers
from their lists due to a lawsuit. I'd rather use the SPEWS list (spews.org)
which takes a much more aggressive stance.

On Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:06:32 -0700, "CM" <cmize@aracnet.com> wrote:

>I'd prefer a choice in which blacklist to use. I don't believe MAPS to be
>all that effective anymore since they have removed some big-time spammers
>from their lists due to a lawsuit. I'd rather use the SPEWS list (spews.org)
>which takes a much more aggressive stance.

I'm sorry to hear MAPS RBL went soft because of litigation, but glad
to count in the SPEWS list for picking up the slack in the RBL
arsenol.

Spews.org joins a list of effective Black-List providers:

  RSS                      => "relays.mail-abuse.org"
  BLACKHOLES      => "blackholes.mail-abuse.org"
  DUL                      => "dialups.mail-abuse.org"
  ORBZ                   => "inputs.orbz.org"
  ORBZ-OUTPUTS => "outputs.orbz.org"
  ORDB                   => "relays.ordb.org"
  DORKS                 => "orbs.dorkslayers.com"

The problem is no such animal exists on a Windows mail client, for the
masses, or even on HAMSTER where it is most sorely needed.  

I would be thrilled to have any real-time black list (RBL) integrated
for SPAM prevention into a mail client, much more the ability to
combine some choices that included SPEWS, RSS & DUL lists.

From the "Products that incorporate MAPS RBL features" at
"http://mail-abuse.org/rbl/endorsements.html

I found two Apps for Windows with free trials: 

EzMTS Mail Transport System is fully compliant with several RFC's and
can combine spam blocking RBL, RSS, & DUL, but I couldn't get this
FAT32 terminal-mode trial version working all day.

SpamEater Pro includes support for SPAM blocking RBL, DUL, RSS and
ORBZ lookups, and a 30 day trial.  This could be worth a US $30.
registration fee, but I havn't played with it yet and it's time for me
to go to bed.

Why is this such a pain in the ass?  This has been a terrific
undertaking for a neophyte like me.  Why is it so hard to find a real
SPAM blocking soulution for an email client on Windows?

Only after digging way too deep into this stuff do I find out the more
popular GNU/Linux distributions come pre-configured with Sendmail and
utilities programmed to route their outgoing mail through MAPS DUL and
RBL's.

"What the fuck" is wrong with Windose ..  HAMSTER, and Pegasus?

Roger R.
Fullerton, CA.

I think there's a bit of confusion here - rbl's are not designed for use by
mail clients, they're aimed at mail servers for filtering incoming
connections for known open relays. Sendmail on *nix is not really a mail
client, it's an MTA and acts as an SMTP server. I use NTMail from Gordano
which allows me to specifiy with rbl's to use, but since MAPS started
charging I've had to take the option off until I can find a better service -
I'll take a look at SPEWS later when I get chance.

By the time mail has got to Pegasus it's already been received by your SMTP
server which is where the filtering is most effective - if you're running
Mercury then that's where you should be implementing rbl's, not in Pegasus.
And if Pegasus had a built-in capabilty to check rbl's for outgoing mail and
preventing mail being sent from IPs in the rbl it could shut out legitimate
users, or prevent people sending mail via their ISP who is too lazy to
implement anti-relay features.

Dan

"Roger" <roger.nospam@fan.net> wrote in message
news:3bd66841.14645705@News.CIS.DFN.DE...

> From the "Products that incorporate MAPS RBL features" at
> "http://mail-abuse.org/rbl/endorsements.html

Just checked, Mercury is on the list so David has implented rbl handling on
the server side which is where it should be.

> EzMTS Mail Transport System is fully compliant with several RFC's and
> can combine spam blocking RBL, RSS, & DUL, but I couldn't get this
> FAT32 terminal-mode trial version working all day.

This a mail server, not a mail client.

> SpamEater Pro includes support for SPAM blocking RBL, DUL, RSS and
> ORBZ lookups, and a 30 day trial.  This could be worth a US $30.
> registration fee, but I havn't played with it yet and it's time for me
> to go to bed.

Again this is a mail server (sort of, it sits between the mail server and
the mail client and does the job that the mail server should have done in
the case of rbl's).

I can't work out if Hamster does this ability as I could only find
information pages in German :(

Dan

"Roger" wrote :

{SNIP}

can we stop the cross posting in the hamster groups please.

fu's set to comp.mail.pegasus-mail.ms-windows  and hamster.en.misc only.

elfin

On Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:40:31 +0100, "Daniel Crichton"
<danielc@helio.co.uk> wrote:

>I think there's a bit of confusion here - anti-relay features & RBL's are for use by mail servers for filtering incoming connections for known open relays

Ok, no ISP or POP3 mailhost I've ever known offered Mail Abuse
Preventions for my email account. 

Does this mean I can't have RBL, RSS, DUL, or MAP type services for my
email unless, I own a domain or have a connection running 24/7 with
the right server software?  This may explain why EzMTS wouldn't work.

Is it possible for dial-ups or subscriber accounts like mine, with no
permanant connection, to route their email through an RBL or MAP's
type email service?  Is this how GMX works? http://www.gmx.co.uk/ 

Dan, Many Thanks for your comments.

Roger R.
Fullerton, CA.

PS. Other interesting notes below:

> I use NTMail from Gordano which allows me to specifiy with rbl's to use, but since MAPS started charging I've had to take the option off until I can find a better service -  I'll take a look at SPEWS ..

Direct query mode is still free.

"Subscribers that use the MAPS DUL may only keep a copy of the zone
with a paid subscription, but may continue to use it for free in
direct query mode by querying dialups.mail-abuse.org"
Source: http://www.mail-abuse.org/dul/

It seems MAPS & their win-win mission is prevailing in litigation.

"Media3 lost their bid to have the Court order that [their SPAM] IP
addresses be removed, [from the MAPS list] and discussions ensued,
culminating in the settlement announced today."
http://www.mail-abuse.org/pressreleases/2001-08-30.html

"Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS) announced today that Experian
Emarketing has dismissed all claims previously filed against MAPS."
http://www.mail-abuse.org/pressreleases/2001-10-03.html

On Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:47:44 +0100, "Daniel Crichton"
<danielc@helio.co.uk> wrote:

>..EzMTS is a mail server only &.. [SpamEater Pro] is a mail server (sort of, it sits between the mail server and the mail client and does the job that the mail server should have done in the case of rbl's).

Ok, thanks for the help on these.

>I can't work out if Hamster does this ability as I could only find information pages in German :(

I know HAMSTER uses a proprietary script language.  It may not be
compatable with the robust scripts available to servers that read:
http://bre.klaki.net/programs/spam/rbl-check.pl.txt

>Just checked, Mercury is on the list ..David has implented rbl handling on the server side which is where it should be.

There may be a problem with Mercury and RBL. The thread below is only
4 days old:

On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:44:46 -0400, "Michael Golden"
<mgolden@compuserve.com> wrote:

>A couple of observations:  MAPS RBL is available only by subscription.
>(free for home use but you still have to register)  MAPS RBL+ does not work
>with Mercury/32. (perhaps one day)
>
>I'd suggest using RELAYS.OSIRUSOFT.COM in the ORBS section.  This will block
>most everything your trying to keep out.
>
>Michael Golden
>Country Hearth Bakery
>Lakeland, Florida
>
>"Ron" <nobody.is@home.com> wrote in message
>news:3ls3ttsfk138vto7u0a6thom1rf68udi1v@4ax.com...
>> I have tried to prevent spam from getting onto the server for all
>> users using RBL to no success. Performing the test email from
>> abuse.mail it tells me the RBL Block is not working. Is there a
>> certain way that it should be configured?
>> I have been able to block all relaying of mail by forcing the users to
>> use a login to send messages.
>>
>> Is there a FAQ for use Mercury.?
>>
>> As far as I know, I have dome everything that the help file mentions.
>>
>> Thanks for the help in advance.
>>
>> Ron

"Roger" <roger.nospam@fan.net> wrote in message
news:3bd70124.1485136@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
>
> It seems MAPS & their win-win mission is prevailing in litigation.
>
> "Media3 lost their bid to have the Court order that [their SPAM] IP
> addresses be removed, [from the MAPS list] and discussions ensued,
> culminating in the settlement announced today."
> http://www.mail-abuse.org/pressreleases/2001-08-30.html
>
> "Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS) announced today that Experian
> Emarketing has dismissed all claims previously filed against MAPS."
> http://www.mail-abuse.org/pressreleases/2001-10-03.html
>

They are not prevailing at all. In both cases they settled out of court for
unknown terms and took media3 and experian out of the RBL (both companies
are still spamming). They haven't won a judgement yet.

[POSTED TO comp.mail.pegasus-mail.ms-windows - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <3bd5cdbe.11722152@News.CIS.DFN.DE> on Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:06:19 GMT,
roger.nospam@fan.net (Roger) wrote:

>Email servers use these black-hole lists to stop spam.
>
>The only clients I've found for PC users include, EzMTS.ORG and
>SpamEaster Pro. These include RBL, RSS, & DUL.
>
>MAPS RBL, & RSS real-time black-hole list functions are effective,
>especially when combined with MAPS DUL.   

Depends on what you mean by "effective" -- they are effective at
blocking non-spam as well as spam.  I consider the rate of collateral
damage unacceptable.

>I believe David Harris is the kind of pioneer that could  implement
>MAPS DUL on the Pegasus Mail client, and thereby set another new
>standard in SPAM prevention for other mail clients to follow.

I hope not.  Were he to do so, I would probably switch to a different
email client.

-- 
Best regards,
John Navas     <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/>
WinPMail helpers (PGP/URLPROXY/NsProto/AdrCSV) available on my Home Page

"Roger" <roger.nospam@fan.net> wrote in message
news:3bd70124.1485136@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> On Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:40:31 +0100, "Daniel Crichton"
> <danielc@helio.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >I think there's a bit of confusion here - anti-relay features & RBL's are
for use by mail servers for filtering incoming connections for known open
relays
>
> Ok, no ISP or POP3 mailhost I've ever known offered Mail Abuse
> Preventions for my email account.
>
> Does this mean I can't have RBL, RSS, DUL, or MAP type services for my
> email unless, I own a domain or have a connection running 24/7 with
> the right server software?  This may explain why EzMTS wouldn't work.
>
> Is it possible for dial-ups or subscriber accounts like mine, with no
> permanant connection, to route their email through an RBL or MAP's
> type email service?  Is this how GMX works? http://www.gmx.co.uk/

From my limited experience with RBL, DUL, MAPS, etc. they all work like
this:

1. Connection is established to SMTP server by sending server/spammer.

2. SMTP process passes connecting IP to RBL service (usually via a DNS
lookup which returns a pre-determined response such as 127.0.0.2 if the IP
is found in the RBL database).

3. If the IP is in the DUL/RBL/etc. the SMTP server refuses the connection
with a 5xx response code thereby telling the sending machine that the mail
is not allowed.

Once the messsage has been received by your ISP it's too late to do the RBL
check at connection time. If you run an SMTP server on your own machine (eg.
Mercury) and have your ISP forward it to you then every check will be
against the ISP IP address so the RBL lookup is useless. What you would need
is a way to extract the IP address from the Received: header that your ISP
added to the message (this will usually be the very top one) and then use
that in the RBL check, and I've yet to find a product that does that.

I run the mail servers (amongst other systems) for a couple of companies
here so I've messed around with a lot of anti-spam solutions, and I've yet
to find a really effective one - mostly I just filter for keywords or known
addresses/domains. I also have lots of little VB apps that help me in my day
to day tasks - mail server log monitoring, POP checkers (makes life so easy
when I can just click a single button and check all of my local and remote
POP accounts in one go and then double-click an account name to bring up the
appropriate mail client), web site monitors, etc. If enough interest is
shown I might find a little time to throw together a freeware or shareware
VB app that can act as a POP filter and do these RBL lookups, allowing
messages to be rejected before they're downloaded using the TOP command to
retrieve just the message headers and doing the RBL lookup on the IPs in the
Received headers, and then either download the message to a separate store
for later perusal or DELE from the POP server so you don't have to even
bother downloading the content. Any takers? If so list the features you'd
like to see and configuration options (eg. IPs/addresses/domains to ignore
in RBL checks) and I'll see what I can do, but I'm making no promises.

Dan

Oops, missed a couple of things:

"Roger" <roger.nospam@fan.net> wrote in message
news:3bd70124.1485136@News.CIS.DFN.DE...


> Is it possible for dial-ups or subscriber accounts like mine, with no
> permanant connection, to route their email through an RBL or MAP's
> type email service?  Is this how GMX works? http://www.gmx.co.uk/

GMX just seems to allow you to add addresses to a blacklist for filtering,
same as you can do in Hotmail. Couldn't see anything about RBLs.

> Direct query mode is still free.
>
> "Subscribers that use the MAPS DUL may only keep a copy of the zone
> with a paid subscription, but may continue to use it for free in
> direct query mode by querying dialups.mail-abuse.org"
> Source: http://www.mail-abuse.org/dul/

Not so, see http://www.mail-abuse.org/subscription.html

"Effective Midnight 7/31/2001, all non-subscription access to MAPS services
will cease. Anyone wishing to transfer or query MAPS' data must have a
signed contract with MAPS, and have access enabled in our ACL. There are
several reasons for this change:"

...

"It is not our intent to put the use of the MAPS lists out of reach of the
individual or hobby site. We will still offer reduced fee and free query
contracts to individuals, other not for profit sites, hobbyists, etc.
Please include specifics about your site when requesting these contracts"

I know it's free for personal use (not sure quite how you'd use it in a
personal setup as you'd need a mail server unless an intermediate app is
available as per my other reply), but as I run the mail system for a company
we're not prepared to shell out money for a service that in 1 year of use
helped us to stop just 17 messages coming from addresses listed in the RBL
and DUL, I'd rather just set up filters and allow my users to notify me of
any spam they get so details can be added to the filters I already have.

> There may be a problem with Mercury and RBL. The thread below is only
> 4 days old:

That could just be a configuration issue, but I don't use Mercury, I use
NTMail from Gordano, so I'm not sure what the problem might be. Could be
that the user hasn't registered with mail-abuse so there's no ACL in their
DNS to allow his server to make RBL queries.

Dan

OK, last one on this reply, honest :)

"Roger" <roger.nospam@fan.net> wrote in message
news:3bd70124.1485136@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> On Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:40:31 +0100, "Daniel Crichton"
> <danielc@helio.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >I think there's a bit of confusion here - anti-relay features & RBL's are
for use by mail servers for filtering incoming connections for known open
relays
>
> Ok, no ISP or POP3 mailhost I've ever known offered Mail Abuse
> Preventions for my email account.

Most ISPs won't implement MAPS or similar services because it has a
reputation for causing legitimate mail to be rejected as well as spam. Most
(if not all) MAPS implementations work at the SMTP connection stage before
the To and From address have even been determined so it would be difficult
if not impossible to enable this feature for individual accounts. ISPs would
rather allow spam to get to customers and let them deal with it than stop
customers getting legitimate mail, and I can see their point, although there
should be a way of allow customers to make the choice - maybe run multiple
servers, one with MAPS and one without, and put all the customers who want
MAPS checks done onto their own server. But that more work, more money, more
complication, and most ISPs just don't have the staff or the resources to
set up something like that.

Dan

On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 02:34:00 GMT, John Navas
<spamfilter@navasgroup.com> wrote:

>Depends on what you mean by "effective" -- they are effective at
>blocking non-spam as well as spam.  I consider the rate of collateral
>damage unacceptable.

The ORDB and ORBZ-OUTPUTS lists are said to discard a signifigant
amount of legitimate mail, but with meaningful feedback that makes a
re-send possible. What complaints exist for DORKS, SPEWS, or MAPS?

Which list was collateral damage unacceptable for you?

  RSS                      => "relays.mail-abuse.org"
  BLACKHOLES      => "blackholes.mail-abuse.org"
  DUL                      => "dialups.mail-abuse.org"
  ORBZ                   => "inputs.orbz.org"
  ORBZ-OUTPUTS => "outputs.orbz.org"
  ORDB                   => "relays.ordb.org"
  DORKS                 => "orbs.dorkslayers.com"
  SPEWS                => "spews.org"

>I hope not. [for MAPS DUL on Pegasus] .Were [David Harris] to do so, I would probably switch to a different email client.

In the previous post Daniel Crichton explained features like MAP/RBL
services are placed on mail servers, for good reason, rather than mail
clients like Pegasus.  Pardon my neophyte idealism.

I just wanted to point out, no ISP or POP3 mailhost ever offered Mail
Abuse Preventions for my email account.

Could the option of a robust set of such services, on a mail client,
bring a new choice to the masses of Dial-Up and Subscriber-line users?

Daniel described, SpamEater Pro as "doing what the server should have
done," albeit delayed with POP3.

Using POP3 with a remote Blacklist may be slower, and delivery-failure
feedback becomes impracticle, but at least someone is offering the
choice.  

Along with the most applicable and well maintained validation / header
filtering I've seen, SpamEater Pro currently supports MAPS, SPEWS &
ORBZ-UK black lists.  http://www.spameater.net

The MAPS databases [RBL, RSS, & DUL] are free for home use but you
must register first at: http://www.mail-abuse.net/subscription.html

Thats Odd.  The articles I referenced at http://www.mail-abuse.org/
explicitly read media3 and Experian were not removed from any lists.

Where did you hear otherwise?

On Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:54:41 -0700, "CM" <cmize@aracnet.com> wrote:

>They are not prevailing at all. In both cases they settled out of court for
>unknown terms and took media3 and experian out of the RBL (both companies
>are still spamming). They haven't won a judgement yet.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/011003/law118_1.html
and
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl431927568d&hl=en&selm=linford-6A2D42.
09130931082001%40nnrp1.news.eu.psi.net

"Roger" <roger.nospam@fan.net> wrote in message
news:3bd7f56a.15164469@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> Thats Odd.  The articles I referenced at http://www.mail-abuse.org/
> explicitly read media3 and Experian were not removed from any lists.
>
> Where did you hear otherwise?
>
> On Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:54:41 -0700, "CM" <cmize@aracnet.com> wrote:
>
> >They are not prevailing at all. In both cases they settled out of court
for
> >unknown terms and took media3 and experian out of the RBL (both companies
> >are still spamming). They haven't won a judgement yet.
>

roger.nospam@fan.net (Roger) writes:

> Ok, no ISP or POP3 mailhost I've ever known offered Mail Abuse
> Preventions for my email account.

I know that nexgo.de checks at least against ORDB.  They might use other
RBLs as well.  They also have other clever anti-spam measures (check my
from!).

> Is it possible for dial-ups or subscriber accounts like mine, with no
> permanant connection, to route their email through an RBL or MAP's
> type email service?  Is this how GMX works? http://www.gmx.co.uk/

Yupp, but not with GMX.  You can forward your nexgo account to another
account you have or you can check it with Hamster.  They even offer
Pop3S which unlike regular Pop3 does not send your password unprotected
for everybody to read.

BTW, what is the command under Windows to query a DNS?  If I only knew
that, I'm sure I'd have an RBL Hamster script in a matter of minutes.

BTW2, I agree with a lot of the posters here that MAPS sucks.  IMHO
their days are numbered.

HTH

Rolf

"Anthony R. Gold" <tgold@microvst.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7v2gttoiemfip382qhggoc7h9sg3i0aa7d@4ax.com...
> My ISP certainly does allow individual subscribers to opt in or out of
> bouncing mail which originated from host addresses in MAPS' databases.
>
> See: http://www.panix.com/spamblock.html

I did say that I hadn't heard of any, obviously this ISP does the MAPS check
after receiving the RCPT TO SMTP commands so it can determine if the account
has the option turned on, or it does it by extracting the sending IP from
the message headers when delivering to the account mailbox. Good to see an
ISP that appears to know what it's doing.

> If your ISP said this is either impossible or too difficult for them to
> offer then you have a clueless ISP.

I never asked my ISP - I run the web, mail, and dns servers for the company
I work for and with a 24/7 connection, we handle all mail ourselves and
never need to go to our ISP for anything. But from past experience at home I
know that most ISPs are pretty clueless, at least here in the UK - I spent
too much time with one ISP trying to sort out why I could only get a
33.6kbps connection on a V90 modem when I could get 46 or more with other
ISPs and their response was "your modem must be incompatible with our
equipment" (after 3 days of messing with modem and Windows settings that I'd
already tried myself!), so they lost me not only as an internet customer but
I also cancelled the phone and tv with them (they are a major UK cable
supplier) and switched to BT (where I consistently get 44kbps or more at the
same price).

Dan

On 25 Oct 2001 18:11:50 +0100, Rolf Leggewie
<i.report.all.spamscumbags@expires-2001-11-30.nexgo.de> wrote:

>BTW, what is the command under Windows to query a DNS?  If I only knew
>that, I'm sure I'd have an RBL Hamster script in a matter of minutes.

It seems somebody have been listening:

Subject: [Neu] Funktionen zu Lookup fuer Hostname und IP-Adresse
From: Joern Weber <listen@joernweber.de>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:00:14 +0200

(From the development list)
-- 
Peter Alfredsen (peteralf@fabel.dk)
"Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that
 if the British Empire and Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will
 still say, This was their finest hour." -- Winston Churchill

Peter Alfredsen wrote:

Please stop cross-posting to 3 hamster.*-groups.

-- 
Erik.