🚀 go-pugleaf

>>The NeXT box (when it is shipping with JPEG functional which I do not think
>>is presently the case thanks to C-Cube!) will do something the Amiga will
>>probably never do. Edit digital video on disk.
>
>A testament from the grossly shortsighted and uninformed. Your ignorance
>is overwhelming. First of all, JPEG is not intended for moving video,
>that is the realm of MPEG.  
Well excuse me... I fail to understand how NeXT's choice to use JPEG to
compress video places me in the overwhelmingly uninformed class. I am well
aware of the purpose of both JPEG and MPEG. I thought we were talking about
what NeXT and Amiga were (not) doing, not what some people feel they
should do!

>image quality to achieve the compression needed for real time video
>recording, playback, and editing from disk. MPEG addresses this problem
>as that was what it was meant to do. Commodore purportedly is already
>talking to MPEG chip manufacturers in an effort to include this technology
>in the Amiga's long list of multimedia capabilities. 
And I bet that NeXT hasn't heard of MPEG and aren't talking to ANYONE about
it! Whats your point...

>I might add that it
>is currently possible to edit and playback digital video from disk on the
>Amiga using DCTV. Real time recording is coming soon.
Lots of things are "coming real soon now". Why I bet you will even see
the Macintosh do some amazing things with video in the near future...

>>There are lots of other
>>things a NeXT will do much more easily than an Amiga, like exist cleanly in
>>an ethernet university environment.
>
>You truly are uninformed. On that note, I'm out of here. These NeXT wars
Huh? Whats your point? With an ethernet port built into the next and
a Unix operating system, lets face it it drops in place (well almost...
I guess you just type "make"!!). What are you doing for network mail and 
access to file servers, printers and stuff. Maybe there are packages and
hardware available, but this stuff is standard equipment with the NeXT. 

I really don't mind being pointed out as uninformed as long as you
can provide some reasonable information. Thanks.
>are disturbingly non-productive and it appears that all you want is a war.
Well, its not all non productive, you are about to tell me about some
nice Amiga stuff for ethernet connectivity and about DCTV for Amiga (could
you provide a company and number so I can call them?)

No I don't want war, but some comments posted (similar to yours) were sounding
on the nasty side. Lets stick to information rather than slamming.

tj

In article <62084@masscomp.westford.ccur.com> mark@masscomp.westford.ccur.com (Mark Thompson) writes:
>A testament from the grossly shortsighted and uninformed. ...rest deleted...

Sorry, maybe I was a bit harsh. I would just like to see the level of
conversation get above "my computer does this and yours never will".
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
%      `       '        Mark Thompson                 CONCURRENT COMPUTER  %
% --==* RADIANT *==--   mark@westford.ccur.com        Principal Graphics   %
%      ' Image `        ...!uunet!masscomp!mark       Hardware Architect   %
%     Productions                                     & General Nuisance   %
%                                                                          %
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From article <62084@masscomp.westford.ccur.com>, by mark@masscomp.westford.ccur.com (Mark Thompson):
> In article <1991May16.140513.4946@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> tj@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca
> (Terry Jones) writes:
>>There are lots of other
>>things a NeXT will do much more easily than an Amiga, like exist cleanly in
>>an ethernet university environment.
>
> You truly are uninformed. On that note, I'm out of here. These NeXT wars
> are disturbingly non-productive and it appears that all you want is a war.

Uninformed indeed, considering that NeXT and Commodore are using the exact
same Berkeley networking code! (That's right, much of Commodore's current
Ethernet TCP/IP package is a fairly straight port, complete all the way
down to the "FTP" and "rlogin" programs). In addition, you can get "X" from
Boing! and REALLY "rlogin" to your remote hosts (i.e., via a graphical
windowing interface, instead of glass tty).

--
Eric Lee Green   (318) 984-1820  P.O. Box 92191  Lafayette, LA 70509
elg@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM               uunet!mjbtn!raider!elgamy!elg

In article <1991May16.203820.21059@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> tj@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Terry Jones) writes:
>Well, its not all non productive, you are about to tell me about some
>nice Amiga stuff for ethernet connectivity and about DCTV for Amiga (could
>you provide a company and number so I can call them?)

The 3000UX (Amiga 3000 with system V release 4 unix) comes with an
ethernet controller (and tcp/ip of course).

I don't have the list prices handy, but these are the educational
prices as of this month or last for the CBM ethernet/arcnet products:
A2060 (Arcnet)		$  158
A2065 (Ethernet)	$  241

My fall/winter '90 (somewhat outdated, but the most recent I can find)
Guide to the Commodore Amiga (a big catalog of all the cool stuff
people make) lists:

A2000 ethernet card, ACD, West Germany, +49 421 3499517
DoubleTalk (AppleTalk interface), PP&S, Denver, CO 303.825.4144
Lan Rover, ASDG, Madison, Wi, 608.273.6585 (for OEM apps only)

Also listed is:
TSSnet (DECNET), Syndesis, Brookly, Wi, 608.455.1422
X11 for the Amiga, Gfx Base, Milpitas, CA, 408.262.1469


--
J. Eric Townsend - jet@uh.edu - bitnet: jet@UHOU - vox: (713) 749-2126
"The final twitch of P.C. grand peur has to do with the age-old fear of
antinomian beastliness, lesbians holding black masses over copies of
Derrida and so forth." -- Alexander Cockburn

In article <1991May19.191059.7128@menudo.uh.edu>, J Eric Townsend writes:

> My fall/winter '90 (somewhat outdated, but the most recent I can find)
> Guide to the Commodore Amiga (a big catalog of all the cool stuff
> people make) lists:
> 
> A2000 ethernet card, ACD, West Germany, +49 421 3499517
> DoubleTalk (AppleTalk interface), PP&S, Denver, CO 303.825.4144
> Lan Rover, ASDG, Madison, Wi, 608.273.6585 (for OEM apps only)

	Interesting that DoubleTalk is included in the listing, even though
it's still not for sale, and that Interact isn't listed, even though it's
been available on the market for well over a year. Just goes to show you
that PP&S has better marketing people than DigiFeX, I guess. :-)

> J. Eric Townsend - jet@uh.edu - bitnet: jet@UHOU - vox: (713) 749-2126
> "The final twitch of P.C. grand peur has to do with the age-old fear of
> antinomian beastliness, lesbians holding black masses over copies of
> Derrida and so forth." -- Alexander Cockburn

  -Bill Seymour     nesbbx!billsey@agora.uucp or nesbbx!billsey@agora.rain.com
*****   American People/Link  Amiga Zone Hardware Specialist   NES*BILL  *****
Bejed, Inc.     NES, Inc.        NAG BBS         NES BBX BBS    Home Sometimes
(503)281-8153   (503)246-9311   (503)656-7393   (503)640-9337   (503) 640-0842

Relating to a series of articles from "Arctangent":

>>> Organization: Amiga Network Information Systems

Foreword - If you intent to give information on the Amiga over the Network, as
	   your organisation name states, I hope you change your style, since
	   IMHO you do more harm than good.



> There are more than a few Ethernet cards for the A2000/3000 series. Theyre not
> that hard to find...

   More than a few?  Beside the card from Commodore (actually bought from 
Ameristar) which ones are you talking about?


>  Besides, CBM already has a VERY nice Unix-based Amiga, which stacks up rather
> nicel when measured up to a Next.

   Have you ever work on NeXT?  The 3000UX is a very nice home workstation 
(I have one at home).  The NeXT is a very nice office workstation (I have one 
at my office).  Wouldn't interchange them.  Both are good machines, each in 
their own realm.  I don't expect to use TAD on the NeXT (yet), but neither do I
use FrameMaker on my Amiga (yet).  

   The NeXT has interesting features:  Interface Builder, display postscrip, 
object oriented everywhere, DSP and mike standards, Mach, high quality 
monitor etc.  Just for those concepts, I would NeXT Inc. to survive.  They
really make the competition move...


> Exactly. For instance.. Picked up a MacUser today with some news on System
> 7.0... They were making a big shit out what they call IPC... Inter-process
> communication, making the average idiot think that this is some kind of
> technical innoovation available only to Mac users..Sheesh.
> Amigas have been doing inter-process communcation since 1985. BIG DEAL....
> Even when I look back on what I reas about System 7 for the Mac, the Amiga
> already has it all..Its like theyre doing a catch-up job.

   The point is that they are catching up.  And they have a bigger userbase.
And IMHO, better marketing.  

   Normally, when the amiga has a working prototype of something, Apple 
"discover" it until IBM and Microsoft invent it!  :-)  


> Well, Mark.. it IS true.. There are some "stunts" an Amiga can perform that a
> NeXT, Mac OR IBM will NEVER be able to perform.
> WHy? To enable each one of those machines to perform it, youde render it
> incompatible with what was made before.

  I wouldn't use NEVER.  I think an IBM 34010 based graphic card can
easily do whatever copper-blitter operation I can think of right now on a
1024x1024 256 colors screen.  Now with a nice midi module, you can do some 
pretty neat "intro".  Of course you NEVER mentionned price...

   Now we can reverse your statement:  there's quite a lot of things that those
platforms have that the amiga does not support right now: video in a window,
24 bit RGB color (not NTSC, or composite), postscript display, 68040, virtual 
memory, etc.


>Should send you a videotape of some good european demos.  The simple fact is,
>when it comes to the Amiga and audio/visual stuff, what we consider
>commonplace, and even in some cased BORING, other users of other platforms
>look at it and drool. The Amiga was BUILT to handle audio and video
>simultaneously, ever since the beginning of the machine in 1985. And it shows.

   Those demo are quite impressive.  Now people do work, you know.  And they use
BORING stuff like spreadsheets, word processors, mathematical tools, etc. (I.e. 
Wings, Lotus Improv, 4th Dimension, DBase, Mathematica, Words, FrameMaker, etc.)
None of them available on AmigaDos (Some, like FrameMaker, can be used via X 
Windows).


>And just to remind you, incase you may have forgotten. simultaneous audio and
>video is what the multi in "multimedia" means. 

   It now regroups also text, animation, graphics, and images.  Simultaneous.


> This is why the Amiga is the best choice....

   Because you can do wild cool intros?  I agree that the hardware WAS built
to support sound and video, but "almost" no changes have been made in the basic 
functionnalities offered by the special chipset (number of colors, screen size,
CHIPMEM speed limitations, etc.).  It still gives you good performance price 
wise, but the market is catching up FAST.  


> over NeXT, and their barely-there-at-all software base

   Haven't we spoke of software yet?  Frame and Mathematica work on NeXT
computers.  Those tools are used *heavily* in universities.  I agree that
they lack commercial softwares.  It's like the amiga used to be, back in 1986.


> the IBM in its cryptic, cold text interfaces and clogged up operating system.

   Agreed on the OS.  But Windows have been invented :-) and that will give
fuel for at least 5 other years of IBM PC's compatible monopole.  They'll be 
supplanted by workstation and palmtop, not by other PC's.


> The only viable solution under an Amiga is a Mac.. They have just begun to step into
> multimedia, and even still, they cant multitask to any successful degree...
> Even to get the effect you want, youre going to have to dish out a gigazillion
> dollars to do it.

  Yup, but they just begun :-).  As far as the multitasking issue goes, I'm 
hoping 7.0 will support preemptive multitasking.  I find it really unproductive
to work under a non-preemptive multitasking environment anymore.

  And they have HyperCard and Macromind Director.   HyperCard is shipped with 
every MacIntosh, and is really a wonderfull prototyping tool.  (AmigaVision did 
not fullfill our expectations.)


>WHY BOTHER. The Amiga does it, has been doing it, and WILL CONTINUE to do it
>well into the future.. The only problem is, is the public's lack of attention
>for so called "cult" machines..

  Conclusion:
  If you intent to give information on the Amiga on the Network,
  I hope you change your style and do a more research, since
  IMHO you do more harm than good for the Amiga.  


  That's all folks,
	Daniel.

P.S.  All 'noise' should be redirected to comp.sys.amiga.advocacy.
      Please.

--
    // Daniel Martin                            Universite de Montreal   \\
   //  MediaLab, ca vous regarde!               C.P. 6128, Succursale A,  \\
\\//   Mail: martin@IRO.UMontreal.CA            Montreal (Quebec), CANADA, \\//
 \/    Tel.: (514) 343-6111 poste 3494          H3C 3J7                     \/

Whew, talk about a case of bug-up-the-butt..

First off.. I thought the NeXT/Amiga argument died?

Ethernet cards: Besides the one made by CBM, I know there is at least 1 other.
I gave my AmigaWorld to someone else, so I cant tell you offhand. I know ive
seen it somewhere, though.

Used a NeXT ONCE.. Wasnt really impressed outside of the picture. Sorry, but
sleek and sexy BLACK computers dont turn me on. Its the guts inside that
count.

True, the Mac IS catching up, along with the IBM. But you overlook the fact
that CBM has been doing a little moving-and-shaking of its own over the past
year and a half...Having your company's stock jump from 4 1/2 to 21 1/4 bucks
a share is what I call "positive growth", dont you?

I dont mean to beat NeXT into the ground. We all know the NeXT is one mother
of a platform. Its just that the Amiga kills it in some areas. As does the
NeXT kill the Amiga in other areas as well.


The 34010 based graphics card from IBM wasnt MADE by IBM. The 34010 chip was
made by TI. If I remember correctly, there is (will be soon) a board for the
Amiga that handles the 34010. A vague rumor, though. I doubt that it exists.


Price? Ok. Im willing to bet that a $500 Amiga can outperform a VGA based 386
in the area of multimedia.

Video-in-a-window? Who needs that.. For the cost of the board that will enable
you to do that, you might as well go out and buy yourself a couple color
TV's.. Even still, you can run out and get a cheap Genlock for around $100,
and have video overlayed in the background while you work. Big whoopie.

The "boring" things you listed as being "unavailable on the Amiga" arent in
name... But in function, they are VERY available. We have equivalents to them.
Geez, its not like the Amiga dosent have a single database/spreadsheet
available for it.


I know multimedia encompasses everything from Audio to visual/animated/
interactive/text/whatever..Was just using simultaneous audio and visual as an
incredibly SIMPLE thing to do on the Amiga, that give platforms like the IBM a
severe heart attack in trying to perform.


The AMiga is the best choice because I can do cool intros? Right. Thats my
point exactly. The cool intros show us what CAN be done. What can be in those
intros can be in multimedia, ya know. As long as we know the capability is
THERE, IN THE MACHINE, >>WITHOUT<< ANY ADD-ON CARDS.. If we know this, then
there really is NO NEED for extra hardware (sound/video enhancements)..... The
market for that just isnt there for the Amiga. The installed graphics/audio
hardware on the Amiga is STILL far ahead of the competition, both in price and
performance.

I doubt Windows will last for another 5 years. People WILL eventually wise up,
and figure out how much theyre being swindled for with Windows.. There will be
future Macs, and future Amigas that will leave the future-less IBM's in the
dust, and the cryptic dos interface will be dead from then on.

Macromind Director isnt really THAT impressive. Saw it a couple times demoed
on a favoite computer nerd show of mine on a local PBS station. Didnt look
that spectacular.

Hypercard is nice, yes. To a certain degree. I personally like AmigaVision
better though. To each his own, eh?



And for now, just kill the NeXT/Amiga argument.
ArcTaNGent

In article <arctngnt.2769@amiganet.chi.il.us> arctngnt@amiganet.chi.il.us (Bowie J Poag) writes:
>Macromind Director isnt really THAT impressive. Saw it a couple times demoed
>on a favoite computer nerd show of mine on a local PBS station. Didnt look
>that spectacular.
>

I'm confused.  Is the Macromind Director (that everyone in the Mac community
is salivating over) the same thing as The Director that was first created on
and for the Amiga, or is someone else ripping-off that products name?


Mike

-- 
      ///
     ///   "Only Amiga Makes It Possible!"        mcc@moscom.com
\\\ ///
 \XXX/     "On the other hand, you have different fingers..." Steven Wright

In article <arctngnt.2769@amiganet.chi.il.us>, arctngnt@amiganet.chi.il.us
(Bowie J Poag) says:
>
>Ethernet cards: Besides the one made by CBM, I know there is at least 1 other.
>I gave my AmigaWorld to someone else, so I cant tell you offhand. I know ive
>seen it somewhere, though.

GVP makes one.  I seen it in World of Commodore.  I don't know whether it
is Ethernet or Arcnet.
>
>The 34010 based graphics card from IBM wasnt MADE by IBM. The 34010 chip was
>made by TI. If I remember correctly, there is (will be soon) a board for the
>Amiga that handles the 34010. A vague rumor, though. I doubt that it exists.
>

Yes. It does !!  I believed some Commodore folks mentioned it and gave some
specs. It is a released product not a rumor.  It was show in World of Commodore
at Toronto around Dec. last year.  They had a 24-bit picture as a back drop
of X-windows on a 3000.

>
>And for now, just kill the NeXT/Amiga argument.
>ArcTaNGent

Yeap !

K. C. Lee
"Be careful of what you wish for.  It might come true."-Master Splinter,T.M.N.T