🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <1992Oct9.011736.13365@umbc3.umbc.edu>, klr@umbc4.umbc.edu (Kurt Reisler) writes:
> 
> I find it odd that no one has mentioned the seminar flyer that DEXPO has
> sent out.  I know that a few of you have received it, since I did
> discuss it with members of the DECUS Canada BoD last weekend in
> Vancouver.  Although DEXPO has offered "sessions" during the DEXPO
> exhibition, this is the first time, to my knowledge, that they are
> offering formal seminars.  

I don't view them as new.  Although this is, I believe, the first time these
seminars are under the DEXPO umbrella, the players (such as Dan Esbensen) are
the same ones as for the TTI seminars offered opposite the seminars at some
prior symposia.

>The dates place them exactly opposite the
> DECUS Seminar program in Las Vegas.  What I find interesting, and
> disturbing is that of the 13 seminars that are being offered over the 2
> days, seven (7) of them are being presented by Digital.  I find this
> rather odd, since Digital's Educational Services is a major presenter of
> DECUS Seminars.

Now that is disturbing, if true.  I did not notice this when I (briefly)
glanced at the offerings.
> 
> Could this be the first formal salvo in the trade show wars betweeen
> DECUS and DEXPO?
> 
Hardly.  I would view the first formal salvo being the meetings held at the
last two DEXPO's of the vendors to discuss this.  I might call this the first
formal product offering beyond DEXPO's traditional.

One interesting thing is that apparently NETSIG offered some of their seminars
to this venue after they were rejected by seminars committee.  It seems NET
felt they were valuable enough to be offered, but seminars couldn't fit them
in.  I understand NET got a little grief over that, but it's all second hand
for me.

As far as I'm concerned, if they can successfully compete, let them.  DECUS
should not attempt to be a monopoly, and if someone else can successfully
compete, DECUS can look to other areas to fulfill their mission.
> -- 
>                 Kurt Reisler (UNISIG Chair, DECUS US Chapter)
> 		  Captain, UNISIG International Luge Team
> 		     Only a guest at klr@umbc4.umbc.edu
> 	     Are creative spellings like a patentable life form?
-- 
   Don Roberts                   Internet:  don@beckman.com
   Beckman Instruments, Inc.     Phone:     714/961-3029
   2500 Harbor Bl. Mailstop X-12 FAX:       714/961-3351
   Fullerton, CA  92634          Disclaimer:  Blame me, not Beckman.
   So, how many hospitals HAVE been built by organizations of secular
   humanists and atheists, anyway?

In article <1992Oct9.083453.1007@beckman.com>, dsroberts@beckman.com writes:
> One interesting thing is that apparently NETSIG offered some of their seminars
> to this venue after they were rejected by seminars committee.  It seems NET
> felt they were valuable enough to be offered, but seminars couldn't fit them
> in.  I understand NET got a little grief over that, but it's all second hand
> for me.

The DECUS Seminar committee scheduled 12 of the 19 seminars submitted by
Digital's NaC group.  The Seminar Committee has a new system where it is
trying to avoid scheduling low interest or marginal seminars that are then
canceled because of lack of interest.  This system saves the attendee from
signing up for something that is marginal only to find its been canceled
later.  These seminars were not scheduled after they had been evaluated as a
result of the new philosophy.  Having seen the titles I agree with the Seminar
Committee's judgement call. 

The only grief the NET SIG got was related to surprisingly high number of 
unsolicited seminars that were submitted by the SIG.

> As far as I'm concerned, if they can successfully compete, let them.  DECUS
> should not attempt to be a monopoly, and if someone else can successfully
> compete, DECUS can look to other areas to fulfill their mission.

Seminars are a vital part of DECUS fulfilling its mission.  Not only do they
offer quality information exchange at the national level but because they are
"portable" they offer symposia week type information at the local level.
Competition of course has the advantage of everyone sharpening up their act.
However Don don't expect the U.S. Chapter to fold up its tent and go home
because someone else is the marketplace.  DECUS will compete by offering the
best content and the best service when it comes to seminars.  We won't be
competing by offering marginal left over seminars that are a bus ride away.
The proof of value of this activity is while other DECUS products and services
have been on a down trend Seminars continues to grow. 

In article <1992Oct10.005208.4083@spcvxb.spc.edu>, killeen@spcvxb.spc.edu (Jeff
Killeen) writes... 

>Seminars are a vital part of DECUS fulfilling its mission.  Not only do they
>offer quality information exchange at the national level but because they are
>"portable" they offer symposia week type information at the local level.
>Competition of course has the advantage of everyone sharpening up their act.
>However Don don't expect the U.S. Chapter to fold up its tent and go home
>because someone else is the marketplace.  DECUS will compete by offering the
>best content and the best service when it comes to seminars.  

Empty promises.  DECUS operates by having members donate their services,
which it then sells to other members.  At the symposium, and in things
like DECUServe, the donating member doesn't mind very much, because 
the share donated, compared to the whole, is so small.  

At Seminars, however, the presenter can see a direct relationship between
what he (or she) donates and what DECUS rakes in as fees.  This sets
up a nice exploitive relationship between Seminars and their presenters:
the presenters get the minimum which DECUS can give them for their 
services and not be costing them REAL money; DECUS gets whatever the
traffic will bear as registration fees.  

Content doesn't enter into it.  A content-free seminar which is enjoyed
by the attendees will continue to be offered.  Truly bad seminars don't
get new attendees, or get so many complaints that DECUS shuts the seminar
down.  It's a negative feedback loop, not a positive one.  The saving
grace for DECUS is that there are a lot of people willing to donate
their services to DECUS, for a wide variety of reasons.  DECUS isn't
in a position to dictate content to presenters---they get what the presenters
bring to the table, and that's it.  DECUS is not likely, for example,
to pay for their presenters to attend additional career development seminars
by Digital, DEXPO, or whomever.  

Service?  DECUS operates as a small business.  If you have a problem,
you can call up and get a quick answer and solution.  But DECUS doesn't
have a proactive quality assurance program for service.  Products get
attention, and service is left to the attentions of an overburdened
staff.  

>                                                              We won't be
>competing by offering marginal left over seminars that are a bus ride away.

A bus ride away?  Depends on where you stay.  If you happen, for example,
to be in the expensive Hilton in Las Vegas, you don't have to take a bus
(or walk across a thousand-acre parking lot).  Anyone else has to take a bus
(or a long walk) to attend DECUS seminars.  Those of us on a budget
have to take a bus to get anywhere: seminars, sessions, exhibits, DEXPO.

Left over?  Is this the pot calling the kettle black?  Many successful
seminars (and sessions) are "left overs" given by people who otherwise
get paid to give their session for someone else.   And I'd hardly call
the massive number of Digital Educational Services seminars which DECUS
offers as "originals."  DES seminars are often given by professional
presenters who have only a superficial or recent knowledge of the topic
at hand.  These same presenters cut their teeth on a new seminar at DECUS,
for this very reason.  "Left over" is not the term that a DECUS leader
should be throwing around in relationship to Seminars.  

Here's how I see it.  DECUS Seminars treats their presenters with the
minimum they can get away with; has little serious content development
going on; operates with a massive overhead inappropriate to the needs
of the group; and is not likely to change significantly for a long
time---because the objections of people like Kurt are drowned by the
mindless and unfounded assertions of folks like yourself.

It is true that DEXPO (TTI) is offering an honorarium.  But it's not
sufficient to pay for the time investment.  What it does represent
is a part of a program in which DEXPO/TTI coddles, praises, 
rewards, and helps its presenters.  

If Seminars was serious about competition, they would try and understand
why presenters go with them, why they go with TTI, and why they go
with neither.  

>The proof of value of this activity is while other DECUS products and services
>have been on a down trend Seminars continues to grow. 

That proves nothing.  Give me the chain of logic that goes from "people
buy this product" to "this product is valuable," and try not to think about
Pet rocks, L.A. Gear Sneakers, and IBM mainframes while you're at it.

Gadfly of the day,

jms

Joel M Snyder, 1103 E Spring Street, Tucson, AZ, 85719 
Phone: 602.882.4094 (voice) .4095 (FAX) .4093 (data)
BITNET: jms@Arizona  Internet: jms@arizona.edu  SPAN: 47541::telcom::jms
Yow!  Did something bad happen or am I in a drive-in movie??

In article <12OCT199210535523@carat.arizona.edu>, jms@carat.arizona.edu (A virtually vegetal non-entity) writes:
> Left over?  Is this the pot calling the kettle black?  Many successful
> seminars (and sessions) are "left overs" given by people who otherwise
> get paid to give their session for someone else.   And I'd hardly call
> the massive number of Digital Educational Services seminars which DECUS
> offers as "originals."  DES seminars are often given by professional
> presenters who have only a superficial or recent knowledge of the topic
> at hand.  These same presenters cut their teeth on a new seminar at DECUS,
> for this very reason.  "Left over" is not the term that a DECUS leader
> should be throwing around in relationship to Seminars.  

OK if we accept your view of the process (a viewpoint I question because there
are a fair number of folks who only present material at DECUS and no where
else) then what they are offering are is the left overs of the left overs. 

The term "massive" is in the eye beholder - there are 90 user presented
seminars and 29 DES presented seminars in Las Vegas.  75 percent of the
seminars are not DES seminars.  I also know the Seminars committee and DES are 
having discussions right now about improving the flavor of DES seminars.

Like most flames about DECUS services there is some turth in the comments made
which we in DECUS leadership _must_ pay attention to but they can't be
generalized out.  In this case yes there are DES seminars and yes there are
folks who give cut down versions of 3-5 training courses they do elsewhere.
But there are also a fair number of folks who only do DECUS Seminars. 

> Here's how I see it.  DECUS Seminars treats their presenters with the
> minimum they can get away with; has little serious content development
> going on; operates with a massive overhead inappropriate to the needs
> of the group; and is not likely to change significantly for a long
> time---because the objections of people like Kurt are drowned by the
> mindless and unfounded assertions of folks like yourself.

Traveling around to the local events I have a chance to speak with seminar 
speakers.  From what they tell me they feel DECUS takes very good care of them 
these days.  One has pointed out to me that the Chapter is doing a much better 
job than it did a few years ago.

FWIW - I do try to avoid the DECUS leadership affliction of selected hearing. 
I really haven't had a local speakers come up to me a complain - and most, if 
not all, of them speak at national.  However I will start pro-activitly asking 
the question.

>>The proof of value of this activity is while other DECUS products and services
>>have been on a down trend Seminars continues to grow. 
> 
> That proves nothing.  Give me the chain of logic that goes from "people
> buy this product" to "this product is valuable," and try not to think about
> Pet rocks, L.A. Gear Sneakers, and IBM mainframes while you're at it.

Joel this is the one case where you and I will agree to disagree.  If this was 
the mid-80's where just about everything DECUS offered was a winner I would 
agree with you.  But this isn't a case of riding the wave - Seminars are 
clearly bucking the trend line for DECUS products and services.

-- 

Jeff Killeen - DECUS NLC Chair | Email:killeen@eisner.decus.org

DECUS is the user group for folks interested Digital Equipment style computing.
The NLC is the national council for DECUS's Local User Groups - come join us!